How do I get unabiding awakening?

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:07 pm

Ok, great. Good to spend time in DE even if just relaxing and noticing.
Hi, Michael.

I’ve done the exercise twice. Yesterday I did it for 20 minutes and this morning I’ve repeated it.

I must say that during each second part (the one without the ‘I’), some of the time it felt the same, it felt like I was just using a contracted form of saying ”I’m seeing it.” – but writing ”Seeing it”. In my mind, I was suppressing the I but meaning the same thing.

But mostly towards the end, I could realize that even dropping the ’I,’ the ’actions’ were still there. Still happening.

I also saw how active and quick it moves from feelings and thoughts.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:54 am

Hi Ben,

An intersting post.
But mostly towards the end, I could realize that even dropping the ’I,’ the ’actions’ were still there. Still happening.

I think by the 'actions' you mean perception? You must tell me if you mean something else.

If you mean perception then very well noticed. Perception just occurs. Birdsong or a car is heard but there is nothing 'doing' the listening....it is just happenning by itself...hearing just occurs.

I also saw how active and quick it moves from feelings and thoughts.

Do you mean 'attention' - it is attention that moves....


Let me know if I am understanding you correctly before we move on. Language use is going to need to be subtle and accurate and we bothe need to understand what the other person means or is pointing at.

Kind regards,

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:05 pm

Hi Ben,

I think by the 'actions' you mean perception? You must tell me if you mean something else.
You are right it is not an ‘action’. It’s a perception.
If you mean perception then very well noticed. Perception just occurs. Birdsong or a car is heard but there is nothing 'doing' the listening....it is just happenning by itself...hearing just occurs.
You are right. I got it.

Do you mean 'attention' - it is attention that moves....
Yes. Now we are in the same language.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:04 pm

Hi Ben,

Ok, Cool.

Explore this:

Our upbringing teaches us that we are a subject (separate self), that there is an object of perception, and an act of perception.

But is this true?

Choose an item such as a cup or an apple and look at it. If there is a separate self, we should be able to locate a boundary.

In direct experience can a boundary be found?

Is there an act of perception or is perception just occurring?

Enjoy!

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:09 am

Hi, Michael.

Please find it below.

Choose an item such as a cup or an apple and look at it. If there is a separate self, we should be able to locate a boundary.

In direct experience can a boundary be found?
I did the exercise.

And I didn’t find a boundary. Although I can see and feel my ‘bag of skin’ as a different object from the orange placed in front of me, both are on the same space. The observation that is occurring encompass everything.

Is there an act of perception or is perception just occurring?
Perception is always occurring. I can’t see this as an ‘action’.

Thank you,
Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:31 pm

Hi Ben,
Choose an item such as a cup or an apple and look at it. If there is a separate self, we should be able to locate a boundary.

In direct experience can a boundary be found?
I did the exercise.

And I didn’t find a boundary. Although I can see and feel my ‘bag of skin’ as a different object from the orange placed in front of me, both are on the same space.

Ok, Great.

Now do the same with hearing.......Sit quietly, close eyes, relax, let sounds be noticed...

Can a boundary be found?

Can a separate self be found?

Is hearing being done by a self, or is it just occurring?

Perception is always occurring. I can’t see this as an ‘action’.

Brilliant. Well done. No self required :-)

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:56 am

Hi Ben,

Now do the same with hearing.......Sit quietly, close eyes, relax, let sounds be noticed...

Can a boundary be found?
No. As with seeing, everything seems to be happening inside me.

Can a separate self be found?
No. Only the streaming of ‘hearing’.

Is hearing being done by a self, or is it just occurring?
It seems that it’s just occurring. Although a ‘sense’ of a me occupying the space ‘over here’ seems present.

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:37 am

Hi Ben,
Now do the same with hearing.......Sit quietly, close eyes, relax, let sounds be noticed...

Can a boundary be found?
No. As with seeing, everything seems to be happening inside me.

Does it?

What do the labels 'inside' and 'outside' signify exactly?


Can a separate self be found?

No. Only the streaming of ‘hearing’.

What, if anything, is 'streaming' hearing.


Or is there just 'hearing'.
Although a ‘sense’ of a me occupying the space ‘over here’ seems present.

Where does 'over here' meet 'over there'?

Michael.

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:03 am

Hi Ben,

Can a boundary be found?
No. As with seeing, everything seems to be happening inside me.
Does it?

What do the labels 'inside' and 'outside' signify exactly?
I can touch and feel my ’bag of skin.’ and I hear the sounds inside it, inside my head.
Can a separate self be found?

No. Only the streaming of ‘hearing’.

What, if anything, is 'streaming' hearing.


Or is there just 'hearing'.
Although a ‘sense’ of a me occupying the space ‘over here’ seems present.

Where does 'over here' meet 'over there'?

Michael.
’Over here’ is where I have my nervous system allowing me to feel something. ’Over there’ is wherever a thorn will touch, but I will not feel anything.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:56 am

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your post.
(With hearing) Can a boundary be found?
No. As with seeing, everything seems to be happening inside me.
Really?
I can touch and feel my ’bag of skin.’ and I hear the sounds inside it, inside my head.
Are you sure?

When relaxed and with eyes closed can you find 'inside your head?

Can you find body, right bicep, left eyeball?


Where do you end and where does the outside begin?

Use sound again. Can a boundary be found?

’Over here’ is where I have my nervous system allowing me to feel something.

This is conceptual. It is what you were taught in Biology at school. It cannot be found in DE.

Feeling occurs. But is there an 'I' that feels?


Enjoy your explorations!


Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:55 am

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your post.
(With hearing) Can a boundary be found?
No. As with seeing, everything seems to be happening inside me.
Really?
I can touch and feel my ’bag of skin.’ and I hear the sounds inside it, inside my head.
Are you sure?

When relaxed and with eyes closed can you find 'inside your head?

Can you find body, right bicep, left eyeball?


Where do you end and where does the outside begin?

Use sound again. Can a boundary be found?

’Over here’ is where I have my nervous system allowing me to feel something.

This is conceptual. It is what you were taught in Biology at school. It cannot be found in DE.

Feeling occurs. But is there an 'I' that feels?


Enjoy your explorations!


Michael
Hi, Michael.

Thank you for your answer.

I believe I’m getting a little lost during this phase of the process.

This is where I am:

1. I can see that there is no one doing the ‘hearing’ or the ‘seeing’. Those sensations are always ‘just happening’.

2. I also can see that a streaming of thoughts are ‘happening” even without my help.

3. But I can still see that there is a self holding the glass of water, lifting the book.

That’s where I am.

Thank you again for your help.

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:25 am

Hi Ben,
I believe I’m getting a little lost during this phase of the process.

This is where I am:

1. I can see that there is no one doing the ‘hearing’ or the ‘seeing’. Those sensations are always ‘just happening’.

2. I also can see that a streaming of thoughts are ‘happening” even without my help.

3. But I can still see that there is a self holding the glass of water, lifting the book.

That’s where I am.

You don't sound lost to me! That is a really clear summary of what you have seen. Well done.

So your last statement is exactly where your inquiry is........

Where or what is the self that lifts objects?

Is a self required to lift the glass?

Is there something/someone to be found in your experience making decisions, choosing, controlling?

Put your hand in front of you, watch closely like a hawk and make the hand lift up and then down. How did "you" do it? Did you know when the hand would go up, and when it would go down?

We are not looking for a 'sense' of 'I', - in general that will persist for some while.
We are looking for the assumed ME, the gnome at the steering wheel that we think is in control of the journey.

Let's check for a driver!

Would you set up two different drinks that you like on a table in front of a comfortable chair.

Sit down, relax, take your time.

When you are ready reach out, pick a drink and take a sip.

Repeat if appropriate!

If it takes a lot of repetition probably best not to uses beers or wines......... ;-)

Can you describe to me what happened in detail please?

If the glasses are side by side, each as easy to reach as the other

A 'choice' is made.

Or is it?
Who makes it?
How?
When?

Relax, observe, without preconceptions or worries.

Enjoy!

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:46 pm

Thank you, Michael!
Where or what is the self that lifts objects?

Is a self required to lift the glass?
I couldn't identify where the self is. I actually don't even know what it is; what I'm looking for exactly.

So I can't answer ’if a self is required to lift an object.’ But I believe that a person alive, like me, seems to be required. Don't know if the semantics will call that thing a self.

Is there something/someone to be found in your experience making decisions, choosing, controlling?
Even though I didn't find a separate gnome piloting it, it appears that the self (whatever it is) is deciding without me (the conscious me). It seemed like it did the calculations and choose what to do.

Put your hand in front of you, watch closely like a hawk, and make the hand lift up and then down. How did "you" do it? Did you know when the hand would go up, and when it would go down?
No. I have no idea how to do it. It felt like turning on a microwave. I, the one I feel like me, just tell the command and something does its thing and lift the arm or heat up the food.

We are not looking for a 'sense' of 'I', - in general that will persist for some while.
We are looking for the assumed ME, the gnome at the steering wheel that we think is in control of the journey.

Let's check for a driver!
Yes. I believe I'm definitely not the driver. There is someone or something deciding which of the two stones to lift. And running my days. Choosing which items of my to-do list to accomplish and what to ignore.

But I do fill that although I'm not in the driver seat, I'm still a self riding on the cockpit, choosing ’some’ of the actions (it felt like it was me writing the to-do list), and it felt like I decided to perform the arm exercise - event though I don't know the details of the muscles inner works.

Can you describe to me what happened in detail please? If the glasses are side by side, each as easy to reach as the other

A 'choice' is made.

Or is it?
Who makes it?
How?
When?
A choice was made. But I wasn't ’in the room where the decision was made.

I felt like I saw the ‘decision’, and tried to figure out why.

I believe that ‘who’ made was probably the one who is deciding to beat my heart and making the muscle calculations to lift an arm. Not me. I don't know how it did it.

It seems to me that it did right before I'm aware.

So there is still an I, a gnome. His just piloting a ship that has a lot of the commands on auto-pilot. And, even when I decide to do something, I just input the command and the ship does it thing.

Thank you, Michael.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:20 pm

Hi Ben,

Sorry for my delay in replying - work was intense.
I couldn't identify where the self is. I actually don't even know what it is; what I'm looking for exactly.

Well exactly. We can't find it because it isn't there!

Even though I didn't find a separate gnome piloting it, it appears that the self (whatever it is) is deciding without me (the conscious me). It seemed like it did the calculations and choose what to do.

Indeed, all this can be going on without a gnome at the wheel. Extraordinary really! There is a sleep disorder where people get up in the night, completely unconscious, and do stuff. One person drove a car across a busy city.......

I found watching nature helps. Bees around flowers, birds building nests, squirrels doing their stuff.

Do they have selves?

Watch them. It's all happenning but no one in control.

We are not looking for a 'sense' of 'I', - in general that will persist for some while.
We are looking for the assumed ME, the gnome at the steering wheel that we think is in control of the journey.

Let's check for a driver!

Yes. I believe I'm definitely not the driver. There is someone or something deciding which of the two stones to lift. And running my days. Choosing which items of my to-do list to accomplish and what to ignore.

Great. But it is a question of seeing that you are not the driver. Choice and lifting are occuring so we posit or infer that a self must be necessary, must be doing it.

Can you describe to me what happened in detail please? If the glasses are side by side, each as easy to reach as the other

A 'choice' is made.

Or is it?
Who makes it?
How?
When?
A choice was made. But I wasn't ’in the room where the decision was made.

I felt like I saw the ‘decision’, and tried to figure out why.

I believe that ‘who’ made was probably the one who is deciding to beat my heart and making the muscle calculations to lift an arm. Not me. I don't know how it did it.


This is important to notice and keep noticing.

A decision / choice occurs, and an action follows, but then the 'self' seems to claim it as 'I' did this, 'I' did that....

Is there anything more to this than thoughts narrating, explaining, making stories.

There is an 'I' narrative running along, claiming actions, taking credit or blame etc.

But is it anything more than thought that is believed?

You are in a crucial area so do keep looking.

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:08 am


This is important to notice and keep noticing.

A decision / choice occurs, and an action follows, but then the 'self' seems to claim it as 'I' did this, 'I' did that....

Is there anything more to this than thoughts narrating, explaining, making stories.

There is an 'I' narrative running along, claiming actions, taking credit or blame etc.

But is it anything more than thought that is believed?

You are in a crucial area so do keep looking.

Michael
Thank you, Michael.
Please allow me two or three days to notice and look for it.

Ben.


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