How do I get unabiding awakening?

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ben09
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How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:25 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I believe that it means that what I feel as myself is an illusion. I may have that illusion because all my senses come from this separated body, so I learned that I am that that body, that self. Also, evolution may have favored this perception for survival reasons.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for a permanent or at least a persistent experience of no-self. I've encountered it twice for brief moments during an indigenous ceremony. I believe that the knowledge and state I'm looking for will help me to see things differently, lighter. And I want to be able to pass that to my kids.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't have expectations for how the guidance will be, but I have an idea of what I want from this. I want to be able to know, in my heart, what I believe that it is to be awakened for the no-self true.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've read a lot of books, almost everything from Alan Watts and Adyashanti. I've participated in some indigenous spiritual ceremonies, and lately, I've been learning a lot on Quora.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:24 pm

Hi Ben,

I've read your preamble and am happy to work with you.

Do read, if you haven't already, all the guidelines and disclaimers on the Gate and check out the 'quote' method. Let me know if you have any problems.

Typically, I will ask a series of questions and or ask you to do various exercises and I hope you will answer from your direct and actual experience as honestly as you can.

From your introduction it is clear that you want to see and to 'know' so I needn't really mention not digressing into abstractions and theory.

Please let me know if this is all ok with you.

Click on the spanner/wrench symbol at the bottom and select subscribe in order to receive email notification of my posts.

Thanks,

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:30 pm

Hi Ben,

I've read your preamble and am happy to work with you.

Do read, if you haven't already, all the guidelines and disclaimers on the Gate and check out the 'quote' method. Let me know if you have any problems.

Typically, I will ask a series of questions and or ask you to do various exercises and I hope you will answer from your direct and actual experience as honestly as you can.

From your introduction it is clear that you want to see and to 'know' so I needn't really mention not digressing into abstractions and theory.

Please let me know if this is all ok with you.

Click on the spanner/wrench symbol at the bottom and select subscribe in order to receive email notification of my posts.

Thanks,

Michael
Thank you, Michael. Thank you for being at service and willing to help me.

Please let me know what's next.

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:07 pm

Hi Ben,

Have you completed the tasks I asked you to do - read the disclaimers etc? Apart from learning to use the quote function.

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:14 pm

Hi Ben,

Have you completed the tasks I asked you to do - read the disclaimers etc? Apart from learning to use the quote function.

Michael
Hello, Michael.

I did read the disclaimers.
And I learned the quote function from the app. Am I doing it right?


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:55 am

Hi Ben,

Great. Thanks.

And yes you have got the hang of the quote function. :-)

If you can click on the spanner at the bottom of the page that will help us too as we will get notifications by email of each others posts. I will do the same. You may have done this as it can be a bit patchy....so it is also good to check on the forum in order to look for replies. Anyway enough of all this teckie stuff.......

The key to this process is looking directly at your experience, noticing, (avoiding intellectualization) and reporting honestly.

Crucial to your looking (like with so many things in life) is having the right attitude and this is what we will now address.

I would like you to do two things please:

Firstly, can you identify what your expectations are and briefly write them for me. What do you think seeing no self will mean for you, or give you?

And

Secondly, can you also tell me any reservations, fears, or possible obstacles that may hinder you.

We will then address whatever comes up which will be a bit like clearing the decks, or emptying the cup!

The aim is so that you begin looking with a sense of open curiosity free from preconceptions of any kind. To this end it is also recommended to not read Dharma / spiritual books or watch 'spiritual' videos while engaged in this enquiry so outside ideas do not colour your direct experience.

Also, as we are doing, let’s try and post every day and if we are unable to for a couple of days out of consideration let’s notify each other accordingly. That way we can create a continuity and momentum.

Enjoy the process,

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:01 pm

Hi Ben,

Great. Thanks.

And yes you have got the hang of the quote function. :-)

If you can click on the spanner at the bottom of the page that will help us too as we will get notifications by email of each others posts. I will do the same. You may have done this as it can be a bit patchy....so it is also good to check on the forum in order to look for replies. Anyway enough of all this teckie stuff.......

The key to this process is looking directly at your experience, noticing, (avoiding intellectualization) and reporting honestly.

Crucial to your looking (like with so many things in life) is having the right attitude and this is what we will now address.

I would like you to do two things please:

Firstly, can you identify what your expectations are and briefly write them for me. What do you think seeing no self will mean for you, or give you?

And

Secondly, can you also tell me any reservations, fears, or possible obstacles that may hinder you.

We will then address whatever comes up which will be a bit like clearing the decks, or emptying the cup!

The aim is so that you begin looking with a sense of open curiosity free from preconceptions of any kind. To this end it is also recommended to not read Dharma / spiritual books or watch 'spiritual' videos while engaged in this enquiry so outside ideas do not colour your direct experience.

Also, as we are doing, let’s try and post every day and if we are unable to for a couple of days out of consideration let’s notify each other accordingly. That way we can create a continuity and momentum.

Enjoy the process,

Michael
Thank you, Mike.

1.
I believe that my main expectation is to get near of the true, of what really is. So I can align my life and actions with it and learn to better deal with life struggles.

2. The reservations and fear that I have is the fact that I may ’learn’ about the no-self thing but don't internalize it to the point. I've read a lot of books, I read that the mind is the one creating the sense of self... but this ’sense’ is strong enough to permeate and filter everything else.

Is that enough?

Ben.


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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:55 pm

Hi Ben,

Great. Thanks.

And yes you have got the hang of the quote function. :-)

If you can click on the spanner at the bottom of the page that will help us too as we will get notifications by email of each others posts. I will do the same. You may have done this as it can be a bit patchy....so it is also good to check on the forum in order to look for replies. Anyway enough of all this teckie stuff.......

The key to this process is looking directly at your experience, noticing, (avoiding intellectualization) and reporting honestly.

Crucial to your looking (like with so many things in life) is having the right attitude and this is what we will now address.

I would like you to do two things please:

Firstly, can you identify what your expectations are and briefly write them for me. What do you think seeing no self will mean for you, or give you?

And

Secondly, can you also tell me any reservations, fears, or possible obstacles that may hinder you.

We will then address whatever comes up which will be a bit like clearing the decks, or emptying the cup!

The aim is so that you begin looking with a sense of open curiosity free from preconceptions of any kind. To this end it is also recommended to not read Dharma / spiritual books or watch 'spiritual' videos while engaged in this enquiry so outside ideas do not colour your direct experience.

Also, as we are doing, let’s try and post every day and if we are unable to for a couple of days out of consideration let’s notify each other accordingly. That way we can create a continuity and momentum.

Enjoy the process,

Michael
Thank you, Mike.

1.
I believe that my main expectation is to get near of the true, of what really is. So I can align my life and actions with it and learn to better deal with life struggles.

2. The reservations and fear that I have is the fact that I may ’learn’ about the no-self thing but don't internalize it to the point. I've read a lot of books, I read that the mind is the one creating the sense of self... but this ’sense’ is strong enough to permeate and filter everything else.

Is that enough?

Ben.


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(continuing)
... I'm looking for a direct realization, not intellectual understanding.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:54 pm

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your post.
1. I believe that my main expectation is to get near of the true, of what really is.
That is a fair enough expectation.

So I can align my life and actions with it and learn to better deal with life struggles.

I know what you mean, but after realising no separate self it won't feel like that because you won't feel like an 'I' that is somehow separate from life that things happen to....

2. The reservations and fear that I have is the fact that I may ’learn’ about the no-self thing but don't internalize
it..

Well that's why you are here! I won't be teaching, so you won't learn much in the conventional sense. I will just be guiding you how and where to look.

Basically you think there is a self, it is what you are, it is directing your life etc so I will set you off to find it. You won't be able to so at some point you will reaslise that it doesn't exist, that it is fiction. At that point you experience non duality / awaken, or whatever other way you want to describe it.

Is that enough?
No idea! Depends how thorough you were?

If you notice any other fears or expectations communicate them as we go along.

So lets get underway......

There is not a lot of theory that we need to get going, however, it is necessary to clearly understand what I mean by 'direct experience', since this is going to be a recurring theme.

When I use the term 'direct experience' DE, I mean immediate sense experience (what is seen, felt, heard etc right here and now) and also thoughts as immediately experienced.

So for example "I am hungry" is a judgement, not a description of direct experience.

On the other hand, "There is a hard ache in my stomach, and thoughts about food and the possibility of eating keep arising" is describing some of the direct experience involved in being hungry.

So as a warm-up exercise, can you write a few lines to convey some of your direct experience as you (I assume) sit in front of your computer now?


Thanks,

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:26 am


When I use the term 'direct experience' DE, I mean immediate sense experience (what is seen, felt, heard etc right here and now) and also thoughts as immediately experienced.

So for example "I am hungry" is a judgement, not a description of direct experience.

On the other hand, "There is a hard ache in my stomach, and thoughts about food and the possibility of eating keep arising" is describing some of the direct experience involved in being hungry.
Thank you! I love that definition.

So as a warm-up exercise, can you write a few lines to convey some of your direct experience as you (I assume) sit in front of your computer now?
Let's go.
My direct experience is the weight of my body pressing against the mattress. And my glass hanging on my nose.
Also some noises like the beeping of the washing machine and my daughter singing. I can also feel that my mouth is dry and the image of my closet and some clothes hanging by the side.

Thank you for your help, Michael.

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:10 pm

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your post.

You have a good basis to start from so let's get underway!

Sitting quietly somewhere, become aware of the six senses, seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling and whatever is passing through the mind.

Focusing on sight say to yourself,
'I am seeing - a table, wall, lamp, whatever it is.

Then with sound 'I am hearing - traffic, the fridge, or whatever.
'I am touching - the floor, cushion, chair, as occurs.

Smell and taste are obviously subtler so don’t worry if you don’t notice anything and we'll come to questions directly about thoughts later.

Then do just the same without the 'I'?

'Seeing table'
'Hearing a dog'.
'Smelling incense' etc
What happens when you drop the notion or label "I"

Enjoy!

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:03 pm

Hi Ben,

What happens when you drop the notion or label "I"
Hi Michael.

Thank you for the exercise.

I did it, but nothing changed. I believe that ”I am seeing” and ”seeing” is the same for me.

What did I do wrong?

Ben.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:56 pm

Hi Ben,

With the excercises it is generally a good idea to try them several times. Did you do this?

I ask because alarm bells are ringing. All your answers are incredibly short and done on a phone. Are you putting much time / effort in? This is your inquiry.........So you need to really inquire......

Try a written version of the same thing:

For 10 minutes write down whatever you experience right now.

(I feel the chair. I hear the cars outside. I think about tomorrow. I feel a little bored. And so on...)

Then for the next 10 minutes do the same thing except using the word "I". Just write down what is being experienced.

(The chair is felt. Thoughts about tomorrow appear. Children are heard. And so on...)


And now that you have finished the excercise, tell me:

Which one felt 'more realistic'/more true?

What was different?

Is there really somebody sitting there, seeing the sun or is the seeing of the sun just happening?

And if there is somebody... where?

In your direct experience, where do you find this sense of self?

And if this sense of self seems to be you then what is it that perceives this sense of self?

Best wishes,

Michael

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ben09
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby ben09 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:33 pm

Hi Ben,

With the excercises it is generally a good idea to try them several times. Did you do this?
No. I’ve tried once. Thank you for the tip. I’ll do it.

Try a written version of the same thing:

For 10 minutes write down whatever you experience right now.

(I feel the chair. I hear the cars outside. I think about tomorrow. I feel a little bored. And so on...)

Then for the next 10 minutes do the same thing except using the word "I". Just write down what is being experienced.
I’ll do it.

I’m answering from my phone because I often have to leave the house to get some connection. ╹◡╹

And I do have a tendency of short answers and paragraphs. I’ll try harder.


And now that you have finished the excercise, tell me:

Which one felt 'more realistic'/more true?

What was different?

Is there really somebody sitting there, seeing the sun or is the seeing of the sun just happening?

And if there is somebody... where?

In your direct experience, where do you find this sense of self?

And if this sense of self seems to be you then what is it that perceives this sense of self?

Best wishes,

Michael
I’ll do it today. Thank you Michael.


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MichaelD
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Re: How do I get unabiding awakening?

Postby MichaelD » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:57 pm

Ok, great. Good to spend time in DE even if just relaxing and noticing.


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