6 years sober spent seeking the truth

[DoctahL]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I realized a couple years ago, after hearing someone speak, that the roles I play aren't actually who I am. That they are just costumes and concepts so to speak. That whatever lies under these roles that I have been defining myself by must be something more fundamental. I've been on the search for years now to find a method to experience that.

What are you looking for at LU?
"Freedom from the bondage of self" as the AA book puts it. 6 years ago, at 29 years old in AA, I finally experienced a freedom from the obsession to drink that I never believed I could experience. That experience left me standing in a new life with no idea where to go next. I've been absolutely fascinated by what real spiritual growth might mean and driven to find a deeper experience beyond what I've gained from the program. Certain things; spiritual tenets, attitudes, beliefs, etc. started feeling limited to me early on in my recovery. Being unchained from my uncontrollable drinking found me feeling like certain over-arching 12 step belief structures were rushing in to chain me back up. I figure, "freedom means freedom" right? How can I have been so wrong about so much in the past and see how much damage it has caused just to turn around and start rebuilding new belief structures? It seems like I've been helplessly impelled toward what freedom might really mean, even if it means contradicting what people around me believe. I've expressed my objections about belief to sponsors and other members in recovery and I often get met with criticism about "overthinking" or "resisting". My guts tell me that there has to be a way to see who I really am or how things really are. I can't help it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have no idea. Hopefully suggestions I haven't already heard and taken 100 times already. Methods to stay out of projecting into the future or dredging up the past constantly maybe. Meditation methods probably. I can't imagine that I haven't already heard it all to be honest. Not trying to be cynical but every guru or teacher seems to be on the same page more or less as far as methods go. Help deconstructing my ideas of me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I still participate in AA and help new guys and practice AA's spiritual principles but it feels like it only gets me so far. I read books from teachers who claim enlightenment, handfuls of which I believe are the real deal. I can't read anything else these days, I've tried. I've been listening to youtube talks from Ram Dass, Adyashanti, Richard Rose, Watts and all the Indian Gurus I can understand. They all say the same thing. "You are not who you think you are." I meditate regularly (or try), I have a sadhana practice that I was initiated into when visiting Sadhguru in Philly that I do (almost) every day. The big questions are pretty much all I think about. "Who am I? What's all this for? What should I be doing?" It's not for fun. I just have to. A while back I was struck pretty hard by the idea I was gathering from all these different spiritual sources that my "self" was just a collection of concepts and ideas. It re-invigorated my seeking and I feel desperate in my effort to find a way to experience it sometimes. If this venture doesn't help, I won't give up until I find a way.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[nemesis]

Hello there,

I would gladly walk alongside you on this path.

Have you read this?

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2109

[urlhttps://www.liberationunleashed.com/nation/view ... ?f=4&t=660][/url]

If not, please do so.

I would like you to answer once every day if that is possible. It keeps the flow alive...
Also, it would be best if you could leave any books, videos and so on about this topic aside, as they often add to your already existing concepts and ideas. That would make it much more difficult.
You may of course still meditate and do your yoga practices. We just don´t want the mind to pick up more ideas over the time of this guiding because as I said, it takes time dissolving these things.
There´s no breaking through the wall if we keep picking up stones and placing them in front of it, making the wall even bigger.

What do you say, get started?

[DoctahL]

Hello Nemesis,

Thank you for taking the time to work with me. I reached out to a man 2 nights ago via email that I'd never met, who's brief story of awakening I stumbled onto from an old program schedule of a retreat he spoke at last year for a certain spiritual foundation, called me back late in the evening and spoke with me for sometime and pointed me here and, thus, to you. So thank you again for being available. I'm hoping this is the beginning of a new chapter and a culmination of a long chain of coincidences and opportunities that led me here.

Gonna try this quote function here.

Have you read this?

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2109

[urlhttps://www.liberationunleashed.com/nation/view ... ?f=4&t=660][/url]

If not please do.

Ready when you are!

[nemesis]

Great!

Imagine a wodden chest standing in front of you. Please open it and put all your expectations inside. You won't need them here. Then close it and press the red button. Wait a few seconds... it should have disappeared by now.

I would like you to do the following exercise. It will take about 20 Minutes so make sure there's enough time.

Sit comfortably. You will need something to write.
During the entire exercise please make sure to only write what is percieved by the senses. Do not interpretate too much.

For the first 10 minutes please write down whatever you experience like this:
I hear the rain. I feel the chair. I think about tomorrow. I smell cheese. And so on.
Make sure to use the word 'I'.

For the second half of the exercise please write down whatever is being experienced but don't use the word 'I'.
The rain is heard. The chair is felt. Thoughts about tomorrow appear. Cheese is smelled. And so on.

Now tell me:
Which one felt more natural, more true?
What was different? What changed?

I am not a native english speaker so please do not hesitate to tell me if something seems wrong or straight up does not make sense.

Enjoy :)

[DoctahL]

For the first 10 minutes please write down whatever you experience like this:
I hear the rain. I feel the chair. I think about tomorrow. I smell cheese. And so on.
Make sure to use the word 'I'.

I hear a car horn outside
I hear birds chirping
I hear the wind blowing over the roof
I feel the wall on my back
I see a picture of an owl
I smell the dust in the attic
I feel the cold air on my face
I see boxes of storage
I'm thinking about where I found this peacock feather
I feel my stomach rumble
I feel my leg falling asleep
I'm thinking about not having expectations
I see light filtering through a tapestry hung in the window
I feel me scratching my arm

For the second half of the exercise please write down whatever is being experienced but don't use the word 'I'.
The rain is heard. The chair is felt. Thoughts about tomorrow appear. Cheese is smelled. And so on.

Pressure on the foot is felt
Birds are heard
candle wicks are smelled
light is seen through the tapestry
birds are heard on the roof
cold air is felt
A tightness in the leg is felt
a beeping is heard
talking is heard downstairs
the scratching of the pen is heard
the dust is smelled
wind is heard
random songs arise in the mind
a soreness in the neck is felt
a picture of an owl is seen
an itch on the back is felt
the itch is scratched?

Now tell me:
Which one felt more natural, more true?
What was different? What changed?

Well it's definitely more natural for me to speak and think in terms of I smell, I see etc. but that is a language thing mostly I think...(I think!) I did this twice, the second time without actually writing. While identifying senses using "I", it makes it seem like I'm actually doing something. Like there's DOING that is necessary somehow. Like I'm purposefully focusing attention rather than just noticing stimuli.

The second exercise felt more like allowing. Not controlling. Just acknowledgement. Like all that stuff would be going on even if I wasn't sitting there. It was kind of tricky though. Like how do I express the feeling of itching my arm without using or even implying an "I"? What notices the sounds if no "I" needs to actually DO anything to notice? Is language a big contributor to how we perceive our experience then? Does it help to try to remove using the word all the time?

Maybe I shouldn't be asking questions and I'll just leave that part to you.

[nemesis]

Well done.

Maybe I shouldn't be asking questions and I'll just leave that part to you.

It's fine. But I won't answer them, I'll leave that part to you. ;)

Does what is being percieved change when there is an 'I'?
The wall is felt. I feel the wall.
Does it affect the wall being felt if there is an 'I' or not?
Is there a connection between what is being percieved and the 'I' that seems to percieve it?

[DoctahL]

Does what is being percieved change when there is an 'I'?
The wall is felt. I feel the wall.

No change. There is still a wall to be felt regardless of whether an "I" is designated to be feeling it. Wall is still a wall.

Does it affect the wall being felt if there is an 'I' or not?

Nope. Sense perceptions still able to feel the wall without thinking of an "I" doing it.

Is there a connection between what is being percieved and the 'I' that seems to percieve it?

I had to pause on this question and read it a hundred times. There can't be a connection to an "I" that is not necessary to facilitate feeling something perceptually. The experience of perceiving the feeling of the wall doesn't need any effort in order to experience it. It was experienced without having to try. So no connection.

The other way I read this was that there is a connection of physical touch being necessary. Can't FEEL a wall without contact.

[nemesis]

I had to pause on this question and read it a hundred times.

Yep, sorry for that.

There can't be a connection to an "I" that is not necessary to facilitate feeling something perceptually. The experience of perceiving the feeling of the wall doesn't need any effort in order to experience it. It was experienced without having to try. So no connection. 

Exactly! No connection there.

Let's look at thoughts for a moment. There are two categories:

1 - the thought labels something that is being experienced.

2 - the thought adds something to another thought - that's a story being created.

Please take a small object and place it in front of you. A cup or an apple for example.

Look at it and tell me...
What is seen?
What are just interpretations?

Is there really an 'apple'/'cup'/...?

And to connect back to the last exercise:
Was there really a 'wall' being felt or is this just an interpretation?

Is there something that is being experienced right now or is there just 'experiencing'?

If at any time I am moving too fast or you need more time please do not hesitate to tell me.

[DoctahL]

Please take a small object and place it in front of you. A cup or an apple for example.

Look at it and tell me...
What is seen?

There is a child's sip cup in front of me. What is SEEN is a general cylinder shape. Varying colors, mostly teal. Some light from outside is reflecting off of it. There are pictures of cactus on it.

What are just interpretations?

Um. Well almost anything with a cylinder shape could be used as a cup. So "cup" would be an interpretation based on it's known function. It is just a label. It could just as well be called something else if it was recognized or used differently. Same with the color teal. It's a name given to a certain recognized perception of color. Pictures of cactus are just lines on the cup they aren't actually a "cactus". Lines situated in a certain pattern recognized as such.

Is there really an 'apple'/'cup'/...?

There is something there but the arbitrary label is not "what it is". You could call it anything.

And to connect back to the last exercise:
Was there really a 'wall' being felt or is this just an interpretation?

It's just a name/label/interpretation. The experience was real but the label is arbitrary.

Is there something that is being experienced right now or is there just 'experiencing'?

If the "cup" wasn't there, I'd still be experiencing. My sense faculties would still be functioning. Constant experiencing regardless of what it might be being labeled.

[DoctahL]

I spent today reminding myself repeatedly that there is no attendant "I" necessary for my immediate sensory experience, including making a constant attempt to acknowledge everything without using the word "I" or "me" or "my". It at least makes logical sense that experiencing does not require any doing or "doer". I feel tinges of excitement in my gut. Anticipation. Like when you go down a hill too fast. It also fits that there is no "I" making thoughts arise. I mean, I've tried for who knows how long to quiet the mind to no avail. They just come.

Where i get confused is, action. It seems like I have to make a decision before any movement or action is to be made. Then on my way to work this morning, I realized that driving is almost completely mindless. Some attention is required but, adjustments are made reactively. If someone threw a ball at me suddenly, my arm would automatically try to catch it. That's weird. Typing is mindless.

Thought I should post something

By the way, your question that I had to read multiple times wasn't because it was written wrong, the question was strange is all. Your help is very very appreciated.

[nemesis]

Hey,

There is a child's sip cup in front of me. What is SEEN is a general cylinder shape. Varying colors, mostly teal.

But does seeing happen in 3d?
Or are there just colours appearing and everything else is the mind´s interpretation of the experience?
Look carefully and for the moment leave all assumptions about seeing aside.

It is just a label. It could just as well be called something else if it was recognized or used differently. Same with the color teal. It's a name given to a certain recognized perception of color. Pictures of cactus are just lines on the cup they aren't actually a "cactus". Lines situated in a certain pattern recognized as such.

Exactly.

There is something there

Really? Is there something that is seen or is there just"seeing"?

It also fits that there is no "I" making thoughts arise

If there were no thoughts. At all. Would this "I" still be there?
If yes, where would it be? Where is it?
If no, then tell me... what is this "I"?

Where i get confused is, action. It seems like I have to make a decision before any movement or action is to be made. Then on my way to work this morning, I realized that driving is almost completely mindless. Some attention is required but, adjustments are made reactively. If someone threw a ball at me suddenly, my arm would automatically try to catch it. That's weird. Typing is mindless.

We´ll get to that in my next post.

Thought I should post something

That´s great! Whenever you feel the need to post something, please do so. Even if you think of it as complete and utter nonsense. It may very well be of great importance to this journey. :)

[DoctahL]

But does seeing happen in 3d?
Or are there just colours appearing and everything else is the mind´s interpretation of the experience?
Look carefully and for the moment leave all assumptions about seeing aside.

I don't think I've ever considered this before. Just like in art, various colors can be blended together in such a way that depth is interpreted by the observer. Pictures. Movies. Also, it's very easy to trick the eyes. I remember back in elementary school I used to buy those optical illusion books where you would stare at a messy picture long enough and a 3d image would pop out. But it was just a flat piece of paper. So not 3-D but...snapshots? Like those flips books? A steady image?

There is something there
Really? Is there something that is seen or is there just"seeing"?

This is difficult to understand. If I consider hearing, it's easier to see that sound waves are just sound waves regardless of where they come from and how they are interpreted. Is this what you mean? Your eyes see light and color but the mind interprets this as "things". This is harder to accept for some reason.

If there were no thoughts. At all. Would this "I" still be there?
If yes, where would it be? Where is it?
If no, then tell me... what is this "I"?

If there were no thoughts at all...how could I know who I was? I can't see how an "I" could be sensed. Senses are senses. They happen without doing. I is just a thought. A mind made composite of preferences and attributes. Interpretations. All mixed together and given the name "I".

[nemesis]

So not 3-D but...snapshots? Like those flips books? A steady image? 

Do you see something or is there just 'seeing'?

This is difficult to understand. If I consider hearing, it's easier to see that sound waves are just sound waves regardless of where they come from and how they are interpreted. Is this what you mean? 

Well, do you hear 'sound waves' or is this already an interpretation and there's really just 'hearing'?
No rigid subject there, just verbs... changing and moving all the time. It's the mind that wants to find something. Is there something?

light and color but the mind interprets this as "things"

That's right. Pretty funny how we thought there were 'things' huh? :D

composite of preferences and attributes. Interpretations. All mixed together and given the name "I".

Perfectly seen.

Let's get back to 'control':

Close your eyes, think of eating an apple, imagine colour shape and size, how it feels holding it, really imagine it as realistic as possible, take a big bite, taste the skin, juices and pulp...

Now open your eyes, where did your apple go? *poof*

Could it be the same with the 'I'?

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there a WHO living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
Big difference. Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your action, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as the body moves around.
Keep checking if there's something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

There are no words to adequatly describe how to see no maps of how to get there. All I can do is point to where you should look.
These are not mental exercices. All the thinking you could ever do will never get you there.
You just need to look.
What is Looking? It's fucusing on the direct experience. Seeing with eyes, hearing with the ears, smelling with the nose, feeling with the skin, tasting with the tongue.
Sensation, before it is judged and labelled, is direct experience.

Note: I 'feel' is the same as I 'think'. Just in disguise.

Have fun :)

[DoctahL]

Is there a WHO living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?

Some thoughts so far. Took a drive today. Most of the experience of driving is automatic. This is a conditioned pattern. I thought about how it was learned. There was confusion, frustration, fear in the beginning until it was easy and basically thoughtless. The focus is on high alert (by itself). This word "ownership" keeps coming. Who wants to own every sense input and thought and emotion and action? Saying it's "mine" or "I'm" doing. Now the thought is "who owns control or choice". If there is no "I" to make a choice. It seems like I have a choice. I'm not a robot. The thoughts concerning choices, discernment, should or shouldn't, can or can't, will or won't seem very dependent on something. What decides to lift my hand or not right now? I still experience all the sensations and more thinking. What moves the hand!? Strange.

[nemesis]

Interesting story. But it's just that - a story. Nothing less, nothing more. Leave it aside and look at what's really there.

See how thoughts arise to defend this picture of self that is questioned.
Is there anybody doing the thinking or is thinking just happening?

Raise your left arm.
Tell me... where is the one that's controlling that?
Did somebody decide to raise the arm or did a thought about it appear and it just happened?