I need help

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

Is it a 'self' or, as ever, just more thought trundling on?......

I can see that it’s thoughts right up until before the feeling of choosing. The different ways of choosing are thoughts that are presented to me, then there is either and acceptance or rejection. These don’t feel like thoughts to me. I want or I don’t want.

Perhaps these thoughts are to subtle for me.

Do you mind explaining step by step how you experience choice? Perhaps I can then look and see if it is perhaps the same for me.

Who or what is responsible for the thought?

I can see that the brain thinks thoughts, but this is still very hard for me to accept almost to the point of not wanting to believe it.

None of my achievements in life are mine, neither are my mistakes. I am not responsible.

There is no difference between myself and rapist or a serial killer, they are experiencing whatever it is that they are experiencing and I am experiencing whatever it is that I am experiencing. No harm no foul, we’re all just along for the ride. How could this be?

Can any 'entity' be found outside of thought?

No, it is the thought that makes them entities. Without thought there is nothing but experience.

Is it really as clear cut and as linear as you report?


See if you can notice how often we reach for the glass, (get up to go to the loo, walk to kitchen to msake some food etc) and the movement begins AND THEN the thought comes in and claims the action....and includes it into the 'I' story.....

Very Interesting. Are you saying that the choice actually gets made outside of awareness and that one only becomes aware of it after the fact?

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

H Nessie,

So sorry for the delay.....

I can see that it’s thoughts right up until before the feeling of choosing. The different ways of choosing are thoughts that are presented to me, then there is either and acceptance or rejection. These don’t feel like thoughts to me. I want or I don’t want.

Or could it just be that life is happening - which is then followed by thought claiming the action as one done, or chosen, by the self?


Can a doer, or chooser, really be found?

Who or what is responsible for the thought?

I can see that the brain thinks thoughts, but this is still very hard for me to accept almost to the point of not wanting to believe it.

Can you find a brain making thought?

Or do thoughts just appear?

None of my achievements in life are mine, neither are my mistakes. I am not responsible.

If you have seen this directly very well done!!

There is no difference between myself and rapist or a serial killer, they are experiencing whatever it is that they are experiencing and I am experiencing whatever it is that I am experiencing. No harm no foul, we’re all just along for the ride. How could this be?

You need to answer that question for yourself? But maybe after this inquiry.......Seeing everything as perfect, including serial killers and rapists, is maybe a deeper truth than realising no-self. However, with the illusion of separation ended perhaps we are also the killer and the rapist?.....Probably best to leave that for now though Nessie.

Very Interesting. Are you saying that the choice actually gets made outside of awareness and that one only becomes aware of it after the fact?

This is exactly what you are inquiring into?


Can a chooser be found?


Again, sorry for the delay - I trust that your inquiry has continued regardless...

Warm wishes,

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

Can a doer, or chooser, really be found?

In direct experience, things are being done and choices are being made. When no attempt is made to look for a doer or chooser, there is no doer or chooser to be found. But as soon as there is a search to find a doer or chooser, there is an exit from direct experience, and the doer and chooser announces itself with an I thought.

Not sure how important this is, but have lately noticed the following kinds of thoughts occurring.

What if this is true?
What if I accept this and make a huge mistake?
What if acknowledge that there is no me? (How would I even do this?)
What if I decide to live this out?
What if I ruin my life?
What if I let go and it goes from pretty good to very bad?

I can sense some part of me desiring to stay with the familiar, what has worked thus far, my life after all is not that bad, and could be a lot worse, many people’s lives are, I’m actually quite lucky.

If I’ve been living a lie my whole life, how do I know this is not just another lie?

Not sure if I can use these to somehow wake up?

Regard,
Nessie

Ps. On the plus side, who cares about COVID-19, the markets crashing, and the tanking pension funds, none of it’s real anyway.

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

An intersting post. Thanks.

Can a doer, or chooser, really be found?

In direct experience, things are being done and choices are being made. When no attempt is made to look for a doer or chooser, there is no doer or chooser to be found. But as soon as there is a search to find a doer or chooser, there is an exit from direct experience, and the doer and chooser announces itself with an I thought.

When we consciously search there will be the tendancy for thought to proliferaste. But does the doer, or chooser, really announce 'itself' with an 'I' thought - or do 'I' thoughts just occur?

What is this self that announces itself (other than thought)?

...I have lately noticed the following kinds of thoughts occurring.

What if this is true?
What if I accept this and make a huge mistake?
What if acknowledge that there is no me? (How would I even do this?)
What if I decide to live this out?
What if I ruin my life?
What if I let go and it goes from pretty good to very bad?

These are simply thoughts that would be labelled doubt or fear perhaps. Perhaps fear manifesting as doubt....A good sign really. The self construct isn't necessarily going to go down without a fight....

I can sense some part of me desiring to stay with the familiar, what has worked thus far, my life after all is not that bad, and could be a lot worse, many people’s lives are, I’m actually quite lucky.

Fair enough. But you have been attracted to the path and generally that won't let you go until awakening so I suspect you are on for the ride now..... Is turning back now really an option?

Also those thoughts are another way for fear / doubt to express itself......


If I’ve been living a lie my whole life, how do I know this is not just another lie?


Because you are within a context where many others have gone before. It's a bit like going into the sea in May in England. Most just sun bathe on the shore but a few are in the sea saying 'wow' this is amazing.

Perhaps you are entering the water and begining to feel some cold and wondering if there are unseen dangers.....?


All I can say is that I have never encountered anyone who has regretted seeing no self. Most report a massive drop in sufferring and a far deeper well of happiness and well being that is always present.


Come on in - the water's lovely....

Best wishes,

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

What is this self that announces itself (other than thought)?

Thoughts, just thoughts.

... Is turning back now really an option?

I’m not sure if there is an option to exercise here. The one who is attracted to this path is only a bundle of thought, he / she / it doesn’t exist. I don’t control these thoughts of desire. If these thoughts continue, I guess I will stay on the path, if they stop, I guess I will drop of the path.

There is a conflicted feeling. There is a desire to be on the path, but also a sense that ‘wanting to be on the path’ is stopping the progressing on the path.

Perhaps you are entering the water and begining to feel some cold and wondering if there are unseen dangers.....?

Yes.

There are lots of thoughts trying to reason this out. The odds of seeing this thing or no thing is infinitesimally small. The price is exceedingly high. I guess there is a fear that I will leap, based on inaccurate information, thereby paying the price, and then finding that it wasn’t enough to secure the prize.

.. but these are all just thoughts, I keep believing them, and they keep making a fool of me. I don’t see a way out.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

What is this self that announces itself (other than thought)?

Thoughts, just thoughts.

Absolutely.

... Is turning back now really an option?

I’m not sure if there is an option to exercise here. The one who is attracted to this path is only a bundle of thought, he / she / it doesn’t exist. I don’t control these thoughts of desire. If these thoughts continue, I guess I will stay on the path, if they stop, I guess I will drop of the path

Remarkable. Here you are seeing through the illusion of choice......

There is a conflicted feeling. There is a desire to be on the path, but also a sense that ‘wanting to be on the path’ is stopping the progressing on the path.

This is a bit tricky. If we go with the model or conception of a path (because that is what it feels like from the perspective of a seeker),it seems that awakening does occur in ardent seekers. Desire is (usually) necessary. However awakening does occur to 'entirely spontaneously' in non-seekers....

Ultimately any idea gets in the way (so you are right in what you say) so the way we deal with that is by trying to be genuinely curious and open, rather than, for example, having fixed ideas about what the goal will be like.

Working with you seems absolutely fine - you are diligent and on the case and seem open to whatever I suggest you explore.

You then go on to say that you recognise fear of the unknown (wading into deeper water) and doubt. Fear is likely to come up (it does for most folk) all you can do in the moment is soften and breath and disregard the thoughts that are causing or expressing the fear.

Your doubt about the likelihood of success is right and wrong! In terms of the population few wake up. However you have arrived here (at LU) and are engaged with your inquiry employing the appropriate attitude. You are therefore very likely to succeed.

So it is a question of seeing:

thoughts as thoughts,
stories as stories,
and Self as fiction.

You are doing really well. :-)

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

So it is a question of seeing:

thoughts as thoughts,
stories as stories,
and Self as fiction.

I’m beginning to see thoughts for thoughts (sometimes, when I make a point of paying attention that is),
but once I get sucked into a story it takes me a while to get out of it, and while I’m in it, I’m lost in it. I get get caught up in the drama of it.

I would have thought that once the illusion has seen, the illusion would have no more power over me, but I keep forgetting the truth that I have seen, and returning to my mistaken believes about thoughts and stories.

Is there a cure for this stubbornness of the mind? Or is it simply matter keeping going back to direct experience till is stabilizes and becomes a new habit?

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

I would have thought that once the illusion has seen, the illusion would have no more power over me, but I keep forgetting the truth that I have seen, and returning to my mistaken believes about thoughts and stories.

Yes, it has to be seen 'deeply / thoroughly' enough that the shift hsppens.

Or is it simply matter keeping going back to direct experience till is stabilizes and becomes a new habit?

Live in direct experience as much as possible but as I said above it is a seeing, a shift.


So follow whatever lines of inquiry are happenning for you. Also:

1. Keep noticing thought stories creating self.

2. Keep noticing that there is no control, that life is just happenning.

3. Be in nature as much as possible - watch birds, squirrels, bees etc - is a self required for what they are doing? (feeding, mating, communicating, rearing young etc) - is it differrent from you?

4. Go back to exploring where is the boundary between you and life e.g birdsong etc Is there separation? Are you separate from life? Or life expressing itself as Nessie?

5. Read the occasional thread from Gateless Gatecrashers - free download from somewhere on LU website.

6. Download 'Enlightening Quotes' app from website and work through it slowly.

Follow intuition - pursue whatever is taking your interest.....

Don't let 'yourself' off the hook instead really make the inquiry your central focus.....

Enjoy!

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the advice, I’ll keep at it, and trust that at some point it will be seen 'deeply / thoroughly' enough for the shift to happen.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

Great. Yes. And write to me about what you are exploring.

Regards,

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

I’ve been exploring whether I could stay in direct experience while doing some common tasks, driving, working, eating, etc.

Something odd that’s happened once or twice, is that the moment gets interrupted by something that needs attention, there then flows a response that is what I can only describe as being both effortless and adequate. e.g. I would be sitting reading something, or watching something, then someone would ask a question, the question would be answered correctly, with what feels like no more and no less words than that required - no me required.

However when this is experienced, it is followed by the experience of excitement and a desire to force it to happen again, which it obviously then doesn’t. It arises spontaneously or not at all.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

I’ve been exploring whether I could stay in direct experience while doing some common tasks, driving, working, eating, etc.

Mindfulness is always valuable and tends to reduce mental proliferation......

Something odd that’s happened once or twice, is that the moment gets interrupted by something that needs attention, there then flows a response that is what I can only describe as being both effortless and adequate. e.g. I would be sitting reading something, or watching something, then someone would ask a question, the question would be answered correctly, with what feels like no more and no less words than that required - no me required.

That sounds like an interesting development. Perhaps you are beginning to see that there in't a separate self acting, responding, choosing, etc. that it is happenning by itself.

However when this is experienced, it is followed by the experience of excitement and a desire to force it to happen again, which it obviously then doesn’t. It arises spontaneously or not at all.

So what is the difference between the flow state, when things are effortless, and the rest of the time?


Next time it happens just relax. Don't do anything except whatever comes up next.


Is Nessie an aspect of life just happenning like a tree or a squirrel?

An expression of life?

Or are you separate from life and just acting on the world around you?

There is no denying the unique Nessie character - just like every other living entity is unique. But for it's animation does it (Nessie) require a separate self?

Don't forget to spend time in nature and read the occasional Gatecrashers thread.

Have fun,

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

So what is the difference between the flow state, when things are effortless, and the rest of the time?

From my very limited experience, I would say that in the state of flow there is no one trying to be in control, of the situation, of the environment, and the outcome.

The present moment is allowed to unfold, what is, is accepted, and resistance is abandoned, but who accepts, and who abandons? Before acceptance or abandonment could occur, who resisted? It seems like the self creates a problem for itself, resistance, so that if can put forth effort to overcome it, by accepting.

How does one give up control when there is no control to give up? How does one accept the present moment when the present moment is refusing to accept? Should the refusing to accept be accepted? It seems there is nothing to be done, but be.

Regard,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

Ifeel yout answers are a bit thought based today but I think that is down to me as the flow question really wasn't very good!

It seems like the self creates a problem for itself, resistance, so that if can put forth effort to overcome it, by accepting.

But really is there a self?

Is there any self outside thoughts about a self and further thoughts relating to previous self referencing thoughts?

Remembere there will be a sense of aliveness or beingness.....

How does one give up control when there is no control to give up?

Exactly!

Doing and controlling are two of the most important and defining things we think the 'self' does. So if there is nothing or nobody in control.......


So if no one is in control what is the implication of this?

But look, don't think!


You could sit quietly and relax and simply ask, 'Is there a separate self here'? .......Wait.......... Remember silance is an answer too.


You could ask the self to show itself.....Can it? Does it?


Don't forget to notice sound and look for the border. Where does sound meet the self etc.....It's a brilliant excercise....


Have fun,

Warm regards,

Michael.

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

But really is there a self?

Is there any self outside thoughts about a self and further thoughts relating to previous self referencing thoughts?

No.

So if no one is in control what is the implication of this?

That everything is just happening.

I’m finding it amazing how much silence there is to be found and how little thought is required. That being said, the mind seems to be addicted to it and doesn’t want to give it up.

Regards,
Nessie