I need help

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Fri May 08, 2020 6:22 pm

Hi Nessie,

Thanks.
Since starting our conversation, I’ve started to realize that a lot of thoughts are nonsense, and even worse nonsense repeated over and over (which when those thoughts are negative turn life into a living hell).

Good work. Well done. May they never ensnare you again...........

You are right that practical thoughts are useful. A valve on one of my tyres malfunctioned today and all the thoughts required to change a wheel came and where to find a tyre / wheel specialist garage etc. Some animals can problem solve too. Speculating, I would say that has a lot to do with having a brain.

Is a separate self required though?

The present moment is influenced by thoughts of the past and the future.

And all sorts of cognative bias, preferances, prejudices, trauma. a lot of filters, or layers depending on what model you prefer....

Sure, in some way all things are interdependent, but some things effect me more than others, which creates an illusion of me being in this body.

Agreed.


You seem to to be on very good form Nessie and it seems like you are really getting into your own inquiry. Fantastic!


What do you notice are the main components, or building blocks, of the Nessie illusion?


That could be answered in quite a conceptual way (a bit like some of my responses to you above!...) but I really mean:

What have you seen, or are seeing for yourself, in your own experience, that creates the 'self'? The Nessie as separate character etc, etc.

Enjoy the looking!

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Sat May 09, 2020 10:47 am

Hi Michael,
What do you notice are the main components, or building blocks, of the Nessie illusion?


That could be answered in quite a conceptual way (a bit like some of my responses to you above!...) but I really mean:

What have you seen, or are seeing for yourself, in your own experience, that creates the 'self'? The Nessie as separate character etc, etc.
Thought and identification with thought. Thoughts create me. I am the product of thought.

Why do I keep doing this? I don’t know.

The brain wants to avoid past mistakes in order to make the future more secure and desirable. It does this by keeping to remind itself about past mistakes, making my present experience less desirable.

Why would I keep identifying with this having seen what I’ve seen? The truth is, I have no choice, I am powerless and helpless to stop it. A very depressing thought indeed.

I want to stop it, I know what Is being done is stupid. Can I even desire change or is that the brain? Why would the brain want to change the status quo, it’s working great for it’s purposes? Where does the desire not to have this experience come from?

I don’t know how I am identifying with thought, and because I don’t know how I am doing it, I don’t know how to stop doing it.

How do I stop doing it?

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Sat May 09, 2020 7:09 pm

Hi Nessie,
Thought and identification with thought. Thoughts create me. I am the product of thought.

Bang on! In fact so bang on a new term for bang on needs to be created!!.......... :-)

Well done.

Why would I keep identifying with this having seen what I’ve seen? The truth is, I have no choice, I am powerless and helpless to stop it. A very depressing thought indeed.

I want to stop it, I know what Is being done is stupid. Can I even desire change or is that the brain? Why would the brain want to change the status quo, it’s working great for it’s purposes? Where does the desire not to have this experience come from?

I don’t know how I am identifying with thought, and because I don’t know how I am doing it, I don’t know how to stop doing it.

For now keep paying attention to the insubstantial nature of thought, the way 'I' thoughts claim actions, and the way 'I' thoughts create stories and identity.

Also you could inquire; who, or what, identifies with thought.

Is there anything there / present apart from knowingness?

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Tue May 12, 2020 6:57 pm

Hi Michael,
Is there anything there / present apart from knowingness?
No. It’s all inside or a part of the knowingness.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Wed May 13, 2020 7:33 pm

Hi Nessie,

Is there anything there / present apart from knowingness?

No. It’s all inside or a part of the knowingness.

You lost me there Nessie!

What's inside?


Re-visit the early excercises when you just looked at an object, noticed a sound etc


Is there an inside and outsede now?


Remember thought might tell you there is because that is what you have been taught but can you find inside and outside when listening to birdsong?

Or is there just birdsong?

Where is the bounadary?

Thought will say the boundary is my skin but that is not what is found when you explore your direct experience......

Regards,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Thu May 14, 2020 6:56 pm

Hi Michael,

What I meant was that all that is known is part of the knowingness (inside, is known by).

When you asked the question
Is there anything there / present apart from knowingness?
I went and tried to see outside the knowingness to see if there is anything there, how else do I see if it is a part or not a part of knowingness? It turns out I can only know what is known, not what is not known. So nothing else beside knowingness.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Fri May 15, 2020 6:44 pm

Hi Nessie,

We are at slight cross wires at the moment. Nevermind.

What are you investigating right now?

How are you experiencing having a self?

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Sat May 16, 2020 9:45 am

Hi Michael,
What are you investigating right now?
Investigating to see who or what identifies with thoughts when they occur.

Having some difficulty doing this, because as soon as the identification occurs the impartial observation stops and only when there is a return to the now present moment (when there is a gap in the identification), is there a realization that there was identification.

Intellectually I can deduct that it must be awareness or the knowingness that identifies with thought (because what else is there), but I’m not present to observe this for myself.
How are you experiencing having a self?


Thoughts arise, ‘I must...’, ‘My...’, ‘Here...’, ‘I am...’, etc. and then there is an identification with it, and before I know it I am thinking the thoughts.

Regard,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Sat May 16, 2020 11:47 am

Hi Nessie,

What are you investigating right now?

Investigating to see who or what identifies with thoughts when they occur.

Having some difficulty doing this, because as soon as the identification occurs the impartial observation stops and only when there is a return to the now present moment (when there is a gap in the identification), is there a realization that there was identification.

Very clearly explained. Very important to see and keep seeing this.

How are you experiencing having a self?


Thoughts arise, ‘I must...’, ‘My...’, ‘Here...’, ‘I am...’, etc. and then there is an identification with it, and before I know it I am thinking the thoughts.

Yes, and especially important to see all the 'I' thoughts claiming experience (for a 'you') and creating and maintaining the Nessie story......


Can you see that Nessie is a thought created character?


Best wishes,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Sun May 17, 2020 7:29 pm

Hi Michael,
Can you see that Nessie is a thought created character?
Yes.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Mon May 18, 2020 12:10 pm

Hi Nessie,

Is there any difference in your life now this is seen?

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Tue May 19, 2020 7:49 am

Hi Michael,

Not really. My day to day experience has changed somewhat, due to constantly interrupting thought by investigating it and therefore moods and emotions don’t seem to last as long.

However, there remains a self experiencing itself as a separate individual self. Intellectually, I can see that I’m none of the things I once thought myself to be, but the penny hasn’t dropped.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Tue May 19, 2020 4:47 pm

Hi Nessie,

Ok that seems pretty clear. Remember there will always be a sense of 'aliveness' or 'beingness'. That will not go.

Since you are continuing to look at thought let's explore choice and decision making because it is that that gives a sense of agency - of being an independant self acting in/on the world.

We are not looking for a 'sense' of 'I', - in general that will persist for some while.

We are looking for the assumed ME, the gnome at the steering wheel that we think is in control of the journey.


Let's check for a driver!

Would you set up two different drinks that you like on a table in front of a comfortable chair.

Sit down, relax, take your time.

When you are ready reach out, pick a drink and take a sip.

Repeat if appropriate! But go a little easy if you are using wine or beer ;-)


Can you describe to me what happened in detail please?

If the glasses are side by side, each as easy to reach as the other

A 'choice' is made.

Or is it?

Who makes it?

How?

When?

Relax, observe, without preconceptions or worries.

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Wed May 20, 2020 9:16 pm

Hi Michael,
Can you describe to me what happened in detail please?
Looking at the drinks, the following thoughts occurred.

‘How do I choose?’
‘I need a strategy!’
‘Do I like one more than the other?’
‘No’
‘Is there an advantage to drinking one and not the other?’
‘No’
A short time passes without thought, then the images of a page of text appeared in the mind.
‘Left to right!’
It feels right, it feels acceptable, I reached out with my left hand and grab and drink from the drink on the left.
Who makes it?
The one who weighed the different strategies until a suitable one was presented.
How?
By looking for and letting different options rise into awareness until one feels right.
When?
After a suitable option comes to mind.

Regard,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Thu May 21, 2020 9:55 am

Hi Nessie,


Is it a 'self' or, as ever, just more thought trundling on?......


Who or what is responsible for the thought?


Can any 'entity' be found outside of thought?


Is it really as clear cut and as linear as you report?


See if you can notice how often we reach for the glass, (get up to go to the loo, walk to kitchen to msake some food etc) and the movement begins AND THEN the thought comes in and claims the action....and includes it into the 'I' story.....

Regards,

Michael


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