I need help

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:31 pm

Hi Michael,
Is it not more like: Sensation is noticed and then thought tells us 'I have an itch', or, 'I am itchy'?

Or, there is perception (no one is doubting that appearances occur e.g. the itch, the birdsong, the scent); but are they just being perceived; or being perceived by a self?
Yes. They’re being perceived by consciousness, awareness, or perception.
If by a self - where or what is it?
It’s everywhere it knows of. Wherever there is a perception there is also the one who knows that perception.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:20 pm

Hi Nessie,
Wherever there is a perception there is also the one who knows that perception.
The crux of it...

Is there an 'I' or self that has or owns the perception or is there just a thought claiming the sensation / experience?

An itch is felt and then the thought comes; 'my knee itches'.

Have a close look...

:-)

Mchael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:12 pm

Hi Michael,
Is there an 'I' or self that has or owns the perception or is there just a thought claiming the sensation / experience?
I feel that the experience is being experienced, but I can’t seem to find what separates the experience from the one that experiences it. Therefore the experience must be experiencing itself, or put differently that only the experience is.

Where do I go from here?

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:10 pm

Hi Nessie,
Is there an 'I' or self that has or owns the perception or is there just a thought claiming the sensation / experience?

I feel that the experience is being experienced, but I can’t seem to find what separates the experience from the one that experiences it. Therefore the experience must be experiencing itself, or put differently that only the experience is.
Yow do you feel realising seeing this. You have just described experiencing but without a self? Has this sunk in.

Experience occurs and is then claimed by thought and woven into the Nessie story.

How are you feeling compared with at the start of your inquiry?

Best wishes,

Mchael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:08 pm

Hi Michael,
Yow do you feel realising seeing this. You have just described experiencing but without a self? Has this sunk in.
The same. I don’t think it has.
How are you feeling compared with at the start of your inquiry?
Less hopeful, and little disappointed... that there wasn’t a shift in everyday experience, but guess it is what it is. Perhaps in time there might still be.

Thanks for taking me on this journey Michael, I really appreciate that you took the time.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:13 pm

Hi Nessie,

It doesn't end until you see or quit!

Central to the entre enquiry is thought so let us look more closely


What we will do now is really look at thought carefully so here are a few questions. This batch deal with thinking in a generalised way and then the next will have you look at "I" thoughts:
Don't agonize, or think, simply look and answer from the gut.

Where do thoughts come from?

Where are they going?

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Can you choose what to think?

Can you choose what not to think?

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Are thoughts belonging to a self or just occurring?

I think you will enjoy this,

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Fri May 01, 2020 7:24 pm

Hi Michael,
Where do thoughts come from?
I am unable to say. They seem to appear from nowhere as I only become aware of them when they enter consciousness.
Where are they going?
Nowhere. The appear in consciousness and then they disappear from consciousness (that is if they don’t stick to consciousness).
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
A ‘simple single word’ thought, no.
Can you choose what to think?
In the moment no.
Can you choose what not to think?
In the moment no.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
In the moment no.
Are thoughts belonging to a self or just occurring?
They are just occurring, to the self.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Sat May 02, 2020 10:10 am

Hi Nessie,
Where do thoughts come from?

I am unable to say. They seem to appear from nowhere as I only become aware of them when they enter consciousness.

Where are they going?

Nowhere. The appear in consciousness and then they disappear from consciousness (that is if they don’t stick to consciousness).

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

A ‘simple single word’ thought, no.

Can you choose what to think?

In the moment no.

Can you choose what not to think?

In the moment no.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

In the moment no.

So, thoughts appear and disappear, they can't be controlled or stoped.

What inspired you to add the term consciousness? You didn't find an entity called consciousness did you? Why add it? Just because you think it must be there........

Look again.

Thoughts come and go - is there anything else that needs to be made up or added?
Are thoughts belonging to a self or just occurring?

They are just occurring, to the self.

Really? Surely when you notice, thoughts just appear and disappear. Do they really do that TO anything?

Next you'll be telling me they are 'your' thoughts (even though they can't be controlled or stopped!!).

So thoughts just occur.

Bingo! In your words - out of nowhere / nothingness.

So why add to that, 'to the self''.

Surely it is not what is happening but what you believe to be happening. What you have been taught......

Look some more and see if that can be noticed.

And by the way, you mention 'in the moment' a few times.......

Is there anything else?

Can the future or past be known? Or only thoughts about the past or future?

Is there anything other than now?

Have fun!

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Sun May 03, 2020 12:46 pm

Hi Michael,
What inspired you to add the term consciousness? You didn't find an entity called consciousness did you? Why add it? Just because you think it must be there........
No I didn’t find it, but I know that I am. Perhaps like you say, it is because I think it must be there, but If there is no me, what is it that desires to know and what is taking the time to look?
Thoughts come and go - is there anything else that needs to be made up or added?
No.
Surely it is not what is happening but what you believe to be happening. What you have been taught......

Look some more and see if that can be noticed.
Yes, I can see. When there is looking, there is a feeling or a thought or an idea, that something must be looking. It’s intuitive. An object looked at requires something to do the looking.
And by the way, you mention 'in the moment' a few times.......

Is there anything else?

Can the future or past be known? Or only thoughts about the past or future?

Is there anything other than now?
Only ever now, and only thoughts about the future or the past.

How do I break the intuition that I will choose to go to work tomorrow, because I don’t want to be homeless and starve?

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Sun May 03, 2020 6:14 pm

Hi Nessie,
What inspired you to add the term consciousness? You didn't find an entity called consciousness did you? Why add it? Just because you think it must be there........

No I didn’t find it, but I know that I am. Perhaps like you say, it is because I think it must be there, but If there is no me, what is it that desires to know and what is taking the time to look?

You don't know what you are. You believe you are a separate entity which is illusion. You are tying to find out what the truth is.....What is looking is a genuinely interesting question. Let's see what happens.....

Remember open and honest curiosity is the way forward (there is no need to add anything to experience - it' all that stuff that creates the illusions).

When there is looking, there is a feeling or a thought or an idea, that something must be looking. It’s intuitive. An object looked at requires something to do the looking.

Yes. I agree for something to be seen, felt etc something needs to see it (they are often descrbed as mutually arising).

We are here to establish if it is a separate self that is seeing and feeling etc.

Let's not bring in a label like 'intuition' as it won't help. Either consciousness or awareness for now if we must!

Only ever now, and only thoughts about the future or the past.

Wow! Bang on - well done you!

How do I break the intuition that I will choose to go to work tomorrow, because I don’t want to be homeless and starve?

That Nessie is an interesting and very valid line of inquiry......

Choice, decision making and free will - all attributes we believe the self has. Well done for realising it is an area for exploration.

Before looking at choice though, let's continue with thoughts......

Here are the more specific “I” thoughts:

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?


Do relax and take your time

You will enjoy these I’m sure!

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Tue May 05, 2020 1:53 pm

Hi Michael,
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
No.
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
It’s a thought that occurs when one tries to make sense of one’s experience.
Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
No.
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?
Yes, when there is an intense focus on the experience only. However it’s not stopping the ‘I’ thought alone, but all thought and the ‘I’ thought along with it.

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Tue May 05, 2020 7:50 pm

Hi Nessie,

Fantastic!
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

No.
Bingo!

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

No.
Bingo!
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

It’s a thought that occurs when one tries to make sense of one’s experience.
Not sure I inderstand your answer so I think it is conceptual?


You believe/d there was a separate self entity doing the thinking, running and controlling the show. Recently you have seen that thoughts just appear and disappear on their own. That they can't be created or stopped. Now we are looking at the 'I' thoughts because they are the ones telling the Nessie story. It is the linking, interweaving narrative that tells the story of Nessie.

So, is there anything other than 'I' thoughts creating the Nessie narrative?

Do you cease to be or to function when you have periods free of self-referrential thought?

Perhaps you are cooking, or dancing, studying or cycling, and are completely 'in the flow'.
Is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?

Yes, when there is an intense focus on the experience only. However it’s not stopping the ‘I’ thought alone, but all thought and the ‘I’ thought along with it.
You are kind of right here. 'I' thoughts can be temporarily suspended. Exerting 'will' won't be sustainable (especially if you discover it doesn't exist!) and as I described above we can be free of 'I' thoughts by being absorbed like in hobbies and some meditative states.

However the pointer is really trying to get you to see that just like any other thought 'I' thoughts just appear. They build, stories form. Identity is created. They are believed.

This is what you are focussing on now.

But how real is this endless identity weaving?

The thought water cannot quench your thirst. Thought content is empty.

Is this not true for all your Nessie thoughts too?

Can they really be you? Could they really capture / describe what you are?

Is there a separate fixed Nessie - all your friends and family have diferrent versions of you......

Enjoy looking! What a key area....Exciting.......

Michael

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Wed May 06, 2020 7:31 pm

Hi Michael,
Not sure I inderstand your answer so I think it is conceptual?
Yes, conceptualization after the fact.
So, is there anything other than 'I' thoughts creating the Nessie narrative?
Can’t tell, how can I see?
Do you cease to be or to function when you have periods free of self-referrential thought?
No.
However the pointer is really trying to get you to see that just like any other thought 'I' thoughts just appear. They build, stories form. Identity is created. They are believed.
If ‘I’ thoughts are just like other thoughts, and thoughts can’t be stopped, does that mean that ‘I’ thoughts will never stop appearing? That they should just not be believed?
But how real is this endless identity weaving?

The thought water cannot quench your thirst. Thought content is empty.
What do you mean by ‘thought content is empty’?

Regards,
Nessie

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MichaelD
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Re: I need help

Postby MichaelD » Thu May 07, 2020 11:08 am

Hi Nessie,

Not sure I inderstand your answer so I think it is conceptual?

Yes, conceptualization after the fact.

So, is there anything other than 'I' thoughts creating the Nessie narrative?

Can’t tell, how can I see?

I don't understand your question.

You have been told since you were a small child, and given a name, that you are a seperate self. It is not true but you believe it. It causes you tremendous suffering.

The game here is that since you believe the self exists you have to diligently search for it. It won't be found and the penny will drop. The key area for most is thought. You believe thought even though most of it is nonesense. The great majority of it is nonesense about the Nessie story. You need to really investigate this until you see it for the nonesense it is.

For example you seem to realise quite clearly that there is only now, therefore what are thoughts about the past and future? Meaningless rubbish perhaps? They are certainly not the truth, at best a distorted version of whatever is being thought about.

Do you cease to be or to function when you have periods free of self-referrential thought?

No.
Good. So thought is not required for being.

Very good from this point on to spend as much time in nature as possible. All of life doing it's thing and not a self to be found anywhere.

What do you mean by ‘thought content is empty’?

Not real, insubstantial, dreamstuff.....

You can think beans on toast all day but you sure can't eat it!

You can think Nessie thoughts all day but is there really a sepearate self to which the label Nessie refers. For a Nessie or a Michael to exist the entire cosmos is required..........

Can separation be found in experience?

Perhaps it is time to go outside and look at a tree. The label refers to the trunk, some branches, and the leaves and flowers.

Can you see a tree that is not part of the earth, needing rain, and mist, and nutrients. Does it not require gravity, pollinators, the sun etc, etc?

Could it be the same for Nessie, or are you the isolated self entity you imagine?

Is there anything in the universe you are not connected to?

Michael.

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Nessie
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Re: I need help

Postby Nessie » Thu May 07, 2020 6:28 pm

Hi Michael,
For example you seem to realise quite clearly that there is only now, therefore what are thoughts about the past and future? Meaningless rubbish perhaps? They are certainly not the truth, at best a distorted version of whatever is being thought about.
Since starting our conversation, I’ve started to realize that a lot of thoughts are nonsense, and even worse nonsense repeated over and over (which when those thoughts are negative turn life into a living hell).

However not all thoughts from the past is useless. There seems to be an extreme practicality in some of them. E.g. A doctor learns for years, then in the moment he relies on past thoughts to save a life in the present. Or for the future, a prospective doctor can see a future, in the present moment, when he/she could be a person with enough past thoughts to be able to save a life in the present.

The present moment is influenced by thoughts of the past and the future.
Can you see a tree that is not part of the earth, needing rain, and mist, and nutrients. Does it not require gravity, pollinators, the sun etc, etc?

Could it be the same for Nessie, or are you the isolated self entity you imagine?

Is there anything in the universe you are not connected to?
Sure, in some way all things are interdependent, but some things effect me more than others, which creates an illusion of me being in this body.

I’ll keep looking.

Regards,
Nessie.


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