I need help

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

I hope you are well. Sorry for the delay.

So where is your inquiry taking you now?

If you are drifting re-read our conversation and see what it sparks.


Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

So where is your inquiry taking you now?

Nowhere, I’ve come full circle. For there to be inquiry, there needs to be a person doing it. There is no person doing it. There is only an imaginary person imagining that he’s doing it.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hello Nessie,

For there to be inquiry there doesn't need to be a person doing it!

Carve out a free hour, make yourself a coffee and read our conversation from start to finish.

Read slowly.

Then get back to me with how you are and what is happenning for you.

Regards,

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

For there to be inquiry there doesn't need to be a person doing it!

True, but where does the desire to inquire come from? In my experience that desire originates from the person, and we know that person isn’t real, so therefore no need to act on the desire. Once that desire is satisfied, the person will want something else, better to just accept.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

...but where does the desire to inquire come from? In my experience that desire originates from the person, and we know that person isn’t real, so therefore no need to act on the desire.

This, and your last post, seem to indicate quite an alienated state. Although I hope i am wrong in this observation of course.....it is a real danger of just understanding intelectually and not really seeing.

Unless you are experiencing a delightfull and delicious intimacy with everything, and are filled with love and gratitude, (which are the hallmarks of the awakened state) there is every need to continue.

Please leave intelectuality aside and do three things:

1. Don't give up! - You have have a good attitude and have diligently put a lot of effort in so far (as I have too). So let's not come up empty handed.

2. Read our conversation through slowly from the beginning. You are likely to find it is a very interesting, valuable, and insightful. Take your time. Make your favourite brew and get comfy....

3. After that write in detail about where you are at and how you feel.

If it turns out that after that we are simply at the beginning again it doesn't matter - it simply means we are back at the beginning again......

There are a variety of options.

Thanks,

Michael.

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

1. Don't give up! - You have have a good attitude and have diligently put a lot of effort in so far (as I have too). So let's not come up empty handed.

I read this, and understood the well meaning, and the intent to encourage, but cannot see why not giving up would be preferred over giving up. Let’s for a moment say that not giving up was better, how would I do it? What could I do?

2. Read our conversation through slowly from the beginning. You are likely to find it is a very interesting, valuable, and insightful. Take your time. Make your favourite brew and get comfy....

I reread it. Your posts, as you suggested, was very interesting, valuable and insightful. As for mine, I find it very difficult to identify with the person who wrote those words.

That person didn’t like the state it was in, thought that it could do something, that would change something, that would make something different.

But this person, the imaginary one that is experienced now, knows there is nothing that can be done, nothing to change, nothing to see but what has already been seen.

3. After that write in detail about where you are at and how you feel.

I don’t know where I am at, but I know this is where I am, and I can’t see any problem with that. If what is wanted me to be some other way, it would have made me that way, instead it made me this way, and that’s okay too. I am content. For some to see, some must be blind.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

Thanks for your responses.

I am sorry to learn that you have been sufferring...

I reread it. Your posts, as you suggested, was very interesting, valuable and insightful. As for mine, I find it very difficult to identify with the person who wrote those words.

Really?. Did something happen. Was there a change in how things are perceived, If so please tell me about it.

For some to see, some must be blind.

Where does thgis come from? How is this known to be true?

But this person, the imaginary one that is experienced now, knows there is nothing that can be done

Is it possible to experience an imaginary person? If it is imaginary how can it be experienced (other than in thought?


Best regards,

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

I am sorry to learn that you have been sufferring...

I think you misunderstood, I have not been suffering. Well, no more than before, and almost certainly less, because I can see, if not in the moment, then in retrospect, that all suffering is self caused. Involuntary, but still self caused.

Really?. Did something happen. Was there a change in how things are perceived, If so please tell me about it.

Nothing comes to mind, just a realization. The realization that all of life is the same pattern repeating, over and over.

For some to see, some must be blind.

Where does thgis come from? How is this known to be true?

Observation. Not sure anything can be known to be true, but observation supports it. You can only say that some person is healthy, if some other person is not. You can only say that some person is rich, if some other person is not. That some person is happy, if some other person is not. If not, the words themselves lose their meaning. We certainly don’t talk about and point out people who are not human, because all people are human.

But this person, the imaginary one that is experienced now, knows there is nothing that can be done

No, it only believes it, sometimes. Most of the time it believes it’s in control, but upon following certain pointings, your pointings, it realizes and begins to believe that nothing can be done, it either happens or it doesn’t. Anything, but this is simply hubris.

Is it possible to experience an imaginary person? If it is imaginary how can it be experienced (other than in thought?

It has to be, an imaginary person is being experienced. It’s certainly possible that the experience of imaging a person is also imaginary, but then certainly the imagining imagining that is also experienced. Exactly, it is being experienced in thought, that’s is where all imagination occurs, and thoughts are being experienced.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

Not sure anything can be known to be true, but observation supports it. You can only say that some person is healthy, if some other person is not. You can only say that some person is rich, if some other person is not. That some person is happy, if some other person is not. If not, the words themselves lose their meaning. We certainly don’t talk about and point out people who are not human, because all people are human.

A clear description of duality. For left to exist there has to be right, up in relation to down, etc.

...all of life is the same pattern repeating, over and over.

Really?


What do you see causing that in you?


Regards,

Kevin

[Nessie]

Hi Kevin,

What do you see causing that in you?

What causes a car to be a car? That’s what it is, it was made that way. Why was it made that way? Someone or something wanted it to be that way, so it made it that way, the car had no say.

What causes me to be me. I can only assume that someone or something wanted me to be this way, and therefore made me this way. Can I choose not to be me? If I can, I haven’t found the way.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

What causes me to be me. I can only assume that someone or something wanted me to be this way, and therefore made me this way.

Well, are you Life expressing itself an Nessie?

Can I choose not to be me? If I can, I haven’t found the way.

Well, have a look. Can you choose to be someone else?

Regards,

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

Well, are you Life expressing itself an Nessie?

Close, but not quite. Life is expressing itself as Nessie, but I don’t identify with that life. I feel like life is pushing me around.

Well, have a look. Can you choose to be someone else?

This was interesting. There can be a pretension to be someone else, a pretension to choose to be someone else, but no real someone else or choice to be someone else. Life would just be making Nessie pretend to be someone else.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

Well, are you Life expressing itself an Nessie?

Close, but not quite. Life is expressing itself as Nessie, but I don’t identify with that life. I feel like life is pushing me around.

Close but no cigar (as we might say in England).....

Well at least this leads us away from intelectualising......

What is the 'you' that is either identifying with life or not?

If there is not identification with life, what is being identified with?

Is anything not life?

Time to explore direct experience again.

Some exercises:

1. With eyes closed and sitting peacefully where do 'you' and 'life' begin and end?

Are there REALLY two things (you and life)?

2. With eyes open and sitting in nature (local park will do). Is the tree separate from the rest of life? (the grass, the sky, the rain, etc) or is the universe (life) 'treeing'?

3. Are you and the tree separate. Without it's O2 you die. Without your CO2 the tree dies?

4. Is separatiion real or imagined - a way we artificially divide up the world in order to conceptualise, to understand, to communicate?


Look, explore, repeatedly......

And enjoy....

Michael

[Nessie]

Hi Michael,

What is the 'you' that is either identifying with life or not?

If there is not identification with life, what is being identified with?

Is anything not life?

This consciousness, which is not experienced as being all of consciousness. All is life, all is consciousness, but no single part of life or consciousness, are all of life or all of consciousness.

With eyes closed and sitting peacefully where do 'you' and 'life' begin and end?

Are there REALLY two things (you and life)?

One thing, not knowing itself completely. I am life, and life is me, there is a touching point, this body, its brain, it’s consciousness, it’s thoughts. It is part of life and life is made up of it. However I cannot touch all of life.

1. With eyes closed and sitting peacefully where do 'you' and 'life' begin and end?
Are there REALLY two things (you and life)?
2. With eyes open and sitting in nature (local park will do). Is the tree separate from the rest of life? (the grass, the sky, the rain, etc) or is the universe (life) 'treeing'?
3. Are you and the tree separate. Without it's O2 you die. Without your CO2 the tree dies?
4. Is separatiion real or imagined - a way we artificially divide up the world in order to conceptualise, to understand, to communicate?

Not two things, but like the toe is not the whole body, I don’t feel to be life as a whole. I am a part of it, but only I am a small part of it, separated from the rest of it by ideas.

Separation is imagined, everything is artificially divided, but that is how the universe is doing it.

Regards,
Nessie

[MichaelD]

Hi Nessie,

What is the 'you' that is either identifying with life or not?

If there is not identification with life, what is being identified with?

Is anything not life?

This consciousness, which is not experienced as being all of consciousness. All is life, all is consciousness, but no single part of life or consciousness, are all of life or all of consciousness.

This is intelectual.

In experience are there two things going on or one? So as you are reading this sentence is there anything other than a sentence being read. Can anyone or anything be found doing that or is it simply happening. The words are seen and recognition of meaning occurs......

One thing, not knowing itself completely. I am life, and life is me, there is a touching point, this body, its brain, it’s consciousness, it’s thoughts. It is part of life and life is made up of it. However I cannot touch all of life.

No not all of life can be touched. In direct experience what is body and brain?

Is there body?

Have you EVER experienced brain!!!!!?

Again this is intelectual. You must look in simple direct experience.......

Not two things, but like the toe is not the whole body, I don’t feel to be life as a whole. I am a part of it, but only I am a small part of it, separated from the rest of it by ideas.

Separation is imagined, everything is artificially divided, but that is how the universe is doing it.

Agreed. Separation is imagined. But it is not the universe doing it is it? It is thoughts occurring that are believed?

When you look at a tree and see that it is not separate from its surroundings...... That it takes the entire universe to be exactly as it is for that tree to exist...... Can this be applied to Nessie?

Can the thought of separation be dropped?

Keep sitting with closed eyes and notice (and enjoy!) the lack of boundary.....

You believe there is one - so find it!

Is it there or not?

Base yourself in simple direct experience and be ruthlessly honest.

Michael.