Why do I need I?

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:29 pm

Hello Katerina!

This time I'd like to just ask you about your experience with inquiry - since a lot of time has already passed. Are there any doubts with thinking and choosing? Do you want to look further into those aspects? Has anything changed?

We can't be like that guy on a first date - let's not rush it! :D

Hope you have a splendid time!

Adam

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Kachna
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby Kachna » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:01 pm

Hi Adam,

I don´t think there are doubts really. Sometimes I get more entangled in stories but mostly I end up realizing there is no separate self being able to influence or change anything.

I have hard time telling what changed, I imagine some more lightness or ease in challenging situations. I rely more often on direct experience and I noticed I´m not going as deep into my thought stories as I used to. Sometimes it is just very clear that things are just happening and there is nothing personal about it but there is no particular feeling attached to this realization (like happiness or enlightening or anything like that:))

Have a great Sunday!
Katerina

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:31 am

Wow! That's fantastic!

So do you want to go further or is it not necessary dear Katerina?

You might SEE no person in experience fully now - hence the question.

Sometimes - as it was in my case - we see some aspects and rationalize others.

I will gladly guide you further if needed!

Have a wonderful week!

Adam

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Kachna
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby Kachna » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:56 am

I would like some more guidance very much, thank you!

I think the rationalizing is definitely my case:)

Have a great Thursday!
Katerina

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:24 pm

Good day dear Katerina!

The catchy tune is on, the mat is on the floor and we are ready for some fitness training!

So let's solidify our knowing with a classic exercise!

For this exercise you will need: a hand and Katerina's Eagle Eye!

Ready? Set! Go!

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:-


1. How is the movement controlled?
2. Does a thought control it?
3. Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
4. How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

5. Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
6. Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?


As always - take your time and - if any doubt arises - please let me know!

Keep being awesome!

Adam

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Kachna
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby Kachna » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:49 pm

Hi, Adam,

how are you?

Thanks for this excercise, I did it many times and mostly the answers were very clear to me.
1. How is the movement controlled?
2. Does a thought control it?
3. Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
4. How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
5. Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
6. Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?
1.No idea, it just happens
2. No thought controlling it, just thoughts appearing in the same time
3. No controller to be located
4. There is no such point, again, only thoughts happening in the same time as the hand moving. The decision being only a thought.
5. Noone, the hnd just lifted
6. No separte individual choosing when to move the palm

I was wondering what is the final point of my journey here. I am enjoying the excercices since they help me slow down and observe and most of the time during the excercices I can see there is no separate self. I guess I´m wondering whether I should feel some click or something :D

Thank you so much and have a great weekend!
Katerina

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:02 pm

Howdy Katerina!

I'm great! Thank you!

I'm very happy that this exercise was so clear to you!

I can see Knowing in your answers! Thank you for taking your time with them!
I was wondering what is the final point of my journey here.
Usually the goal is to see that there is no separate self in reality. A very important question to ask:
What is your goal dear Katerina? What is this inquiry for?

Some people are just ok with seeing some of it. Some want to really know what is "behind the curtain". Either one is ok. Depends on a path we're on.
I am enjoying the excercices since they help me slow down and observe and most of the time during the excercices I can see there is no separate self.
It is wonderful to hear it. I'm sooo glad!
I guess I´m wondering whether I should feel some click or something
Let's forget about clicks and pops and gentle explosions and leave them for a chiropractor or a demolition expert. Let's just grab some mojitos or sodas and just see what happens. How about that?

Many, many times over - folks tend to rely on some "moments of clarity" or "1 minute nirvanas" or whatever. Thoughts are weaving a story of some highly spiritual event that will change something forever.

Let's just open our Epic Chest from our intro and put those events there for now. Relax into our exercises. Into whatever happens!

If you want to go further that is!

If the answer is yes - I'll give you the golden ticket to the Wonka Factory and some further exercises to make stuff clearer.
I will also ask these questions:
Is Direct Experience and Thought Content difference clear and seen now?
Is the Nature of Thoughts clear and seen?
Is the absence of choice clear and seen?
How do you feel now and what has changed since we started? Are there any doubts so far (regarding previous exercises)?


I hope you are well and still very awesome!

Adamito

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Kachna
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby Kachna » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:26 pm

Hey Adam,
What is your goal dear Katerina? What is this inquiry for?
thanks for turning the question back to me, I love it:)
I guess by now my goal is to continue in those excercices and go further. I enjoy them very much and I like the new perspective.
Let's just open our Epic Chest from our intro and put those events there for now. Relax into our exercises. Into whatever happens!
I´m happy to do that!
Is Direct Experience and Thought Content difference clear and seen now?
Yes
Is the Nature of Thoughts clear and seen?
Also yes
Is the absence of choice clear and seen?
Rationally 100%, often still have to remind myself though
How do you feel now and what has changed since we started? Are there any doubts so far (regarding previous exercises)?
At this very moment I feel very good and light, all the excercices and the points seem very clear. Sitting on the train and directly experiencing the surrounding:D

Looking forward to going further!

Thanks and have a beautiful day,
Katerina

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:16 pm

Hello, hello!

So nice to hear back from you!
At this very moment I feel very good and light, all the excercices and the points seem very clear. Sitting on the train and directly experiencing the surrounding:D
Very nice! I hope everything gets clearer and clearer!
Rationally 100%, often still have to remind myself though
Okey dokey! Since you understand the reality of choice - but the experiential clarity is not entirely there - let's dive in. I have some amazing questions for you dear Katerina!

First I'm gonna ask about your sentence above:

Who is reminding you about choice? Is there anyone? Or is it just thought?

Now - the fun begins!

DECISION MAKING - A DEEPER LOOK



1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body
get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really
happens.

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where
you choose to fall asleep?

3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next
thought that will arise?

4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction
etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at
what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion
that appeared in response to a stimulus?

6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is
made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

7. Go to another room, pick a random object and bring it back to the
computer. Why did you decide to pick that particular object? Who made that decision?

8. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on
focusing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on
breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you
control?
What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?
Describe what you see.


I hope those exercises help you further. If you have doubts about any question - please let me know.

Have a wonderful day!

Sending love,

Adam

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Kachna
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby Kachna » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:59 pm

Hello Adam!:)

How are you?

I wanted to send an update on the "liberation" process:))

Thank you so much for the excercices. Trying to find time for them and always having fun. Ocasionally I started experiencing the "no choice" and "no self" clearly, not only getting to it after a stream of thoughts and I love it. They are some glimpses of clarity here and there when I´m calm and have enough time for myself and I still want to continue diving in those questions and excercises.
Who is reminding you about choice? Is there anyone? Or is it just thought?
Just a thought appearing. Sometimes I have another though that I wish it would appear more often:D
1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body
get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?
It's always interesting to see the difference between thought content and what really
happens.
This one is very clear and easy to follow there is no self making the body get up as well as no thought doing that, it just happens in one moment and I amuse myself with the thoughts telling to get up and body not moving.
2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where
you choose to fall asleep?
Also very clear no.
3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next
thought that will arise?
There is always another thought suddenly appearing which content is about the content of the next thought, so - nope.
4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction
etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?
This one is tricky. Here I still have to rationalize all the way since there are some thoughts about being able to influence some of my bodily sensations (like heart rate by breathing fast) and I have to track it down to the point that even starting to breath fast came as a thought with no control.
5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at
what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion
that appeared in response to a stimulus?
Same here. When I just react to aan unexpected stimuli, I cannot control any emotion or attitude but when I sit and consider different mind states and emotions like sadness and joy, I have some thoughts about choosing for example a movie to affect my emotions. And again, rationalizing it to the point where even the movie or affecting my emotion came in as a thought out of nowhere.

I think that´s it for today.
I hope you´re having a beautiful summer (or winter, depending on where you live rn:))

Thanks!
Katerina

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:19 pm

Welcome back dear Katerina!

It's so great to hear back from you!

I'm great!
Thank you so much for the excercices. Trying to find time for them and always having fun. Ocasionally I started experiencing the "no choice" and "no self" clearly, not only getting to it after a stream of thoughts and I love it. They are some glimpses of clarity here and there when I´m calm and have enough time for myself and I still want to continue diving in those questions and excercises.
I'm glad that you're having fun with it! That's always a great way to discover what is true. We will keep on jumping deeper and deeper into the precipice of freedom!

It's time for a little bit of some Gentle Zen Whooping Session. There is no master and no pupil. There is even no stick but we can always pretend. In our temple we allow only popcorn and diet coke. Those are imaginary as well but taste good, no?

Let's begin!
This one is very clear and easy to follow there is no self making the body get up as well as no thought doing that, it just happens in one moment and I amuse myself with the thoughts telling to get up and body not moving.
Who amuses who? Can you control any amusing thoughts? After they happen - is amusement spontaneous or "created" by someone?
When I just react to aan unexpected stimuli, I cannot control any emotion or attitude but when I sit and consider different mind states and emotions like sadness and joy, I have some thoughts about choosing for example a movie to affect my emotions. And again, rationalizing it to the point where even the movie or affecting my emotion came in as a thought out of nowhere.

And when the thought to watch a movie happens - is there anyone who says (aside from thought) that "I chose this thought and movement to start watching a movie?"


Furthermore - when "your body" moves after that thought - is there any deciding force behind the "watch a movie" thought or movement afterwards - ASIDE FROM THOUGHT?


Let's remember the Direct Experience and look at it - is there anything aside from thought about "a movie", color/image, sound, smell etc? Is there any deciding "force" which comes somewhere and chooses from a wide range of thoughts, movements, sensations and perceptions?


To help you with it - let's try something first!

Observing what happens in Actual Experience - a deeper look

Whenever you feel "bad" or "not so good" or "sad"- just sit down with it and notice:

1. The thoughts weaving a story around the sensations and movement.
2. Movement during, before and after (bare movement - without thought).
3. Sensations during, before and after the choice (bare sensation - without thought).

The most important thing - try to find something other than thought - that can tell you anything about a decision maker or choice, sensation or anything else.
Just become a scientist. Don't read anything or listen to anything or anyone. Find out for yourself - what happens. Maybe there is something that decides, maybe not. Be your own arbiter. Don't even think about me or my experience in this matter.

I recommend trying the exercise a few times first. Post your findings here and then - with some new insights - answer the questions above the exercise, ok?

If you have any questions - I'm here for you.

As always - thank you for taking your time with it. I appreciate it and send my heart in your direction.

Stay cool Katerina!

Adam

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Kachna
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby Kachna » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:33 pm

Hello, Adam!

How are you?

I´ve been busy turning my life upside down but still finding regular time for some self-excercices:)
Who amuses who? Can you control any amusing thoughts? After they happen - is amusement spontaneous or "created" by someone?
The thoughts appear themselves just as experience - perception of smile/laughter in the body.
And when the thought to watch a movie happens - is there anyone who says (aside from thought) that "I chose this thought and movement to start watching a movie?"

Furthermore - when "your body" moves after that thought - is there any deciding force behind the "watch a movie" thought or movement afterwards - ASIDE FROM THOUGHT?

Let's remember the Direct Experience and look at it - is there anything aside from thought about "a movie", color/image, sound, smell etc? Is there any deciding "force" which comes somewhere and chooses from a wide range of thoughts, movements, sensations and perceptions?
They are all just thoughts! The choosing from thoughts about different plans/movies is, again, just another thought.
Whenever you feel "bad" or "not so good" or "sad"- just sit down with it and notice:

1. The thoughts weaving a story around the sensations and movement.
2. Movement during, before and after (bare movement - without thought).
3. Sensations during, before and after the choice (bare sensation - without thought).
I´ve actually had quite a few opportunities to look into this closely pretty much every day.
It´s been easier to notice the movement and not to pay so much attention to the thoughts. Also I´ve noticed the gap between thoughts becoming much bigger. I wanted to write it´s easier to notice it but noticing only happens as another thought at the end of the gap. During the gap there is only direct experience, a perception of some sort which, in some point, thoughts start to evaluate.
The most important thing - try to find something other than thought - that can tell you anything about a decision maker or choice, sensation or anything else
.

Nope, only thoughts behind thoughts and spontaneous movements, no active decision maker.
Just become a scientist. Don't read anything or listen to anything or anyone.
This has become quite difficult for me since I have people around me interested in the same way and we share our experience as well as resources. Although I haven´t watched videos, I have read some books and I imagine it is still only possible to experience this directly. When reading about it, it´s just another rational process.

I hope you´re doing great!
Sending hugs,
Katerina

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:02 am

Howdy Howdy!

I'm great! Thank you dear!
I´ve been busy turning my life upside down but still finding regular time for some self-excercices:)
No worries! I'm glad you have some spare time for these exercises! You can always find me waiting here on this calm shore!

I can see a lot of clarity in your answers! We have tackled the labeling mechanism, decision-making and thoughts. Let's return to something we left earlier...
I´ve actually had quite a few opportunities to look into this closely pretty much every day.
It´s been easier to notice the movement and not to pay so much attention to the thoughts. Also I´ve noticed the gap between thoughts becoming much bigger. I wanted to write it´s easier to notice it but noticing only happens as another thought at the end of the gap. During the gap there is only direct experience, a perception of some sort which, in some point, thoughts start to evaluate.
...and that is the gap, that you've just mentioned!

Below is the exercise from before. Since you've had some experience with it - let me point to something extra here.

I don't like to describe our experience too much - it puts "frames" on one-experience and creates separation. However - I will break the rule here and point to something important. Let's remember that the moon is what is essential - not the finger pointing to it.

You've mentioned the gap "in-between thoughts" and the descriptive nature of thoughts that comes before and after. Many people describe this gap as "calmness", "peace" or "unattached being", "pure existence" etc...

...so here comes a very interesting experiment that works very well with "the gap exercise":

1. Put on your lab coat and some ravishing shades.
2. Notice whatever arises.


Here comes the fundamental part!


3. When you sense "the gap" - try to notice if it really ends when thoughts (or anything else) arise. Is it temporary? Does it have a beginning or an end? Is the peace temporary?

Please have the above points in mind as you approach the exercise! It is a different take on it and might give us some interesting insights! Also - as always - remember the Direct Experience (no rationalizing).

"The Gap Exercise"

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least
10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes
and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a
pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better
things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought
passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a
few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as
possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and
just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two
thoughts.

____________________________

Please let me know how it went!

I hope you are doing well!

Sending huge hugs and unicorns your way!

Adam

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Kachna
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby Kachna » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:30 pm

Hello Adam,

howdy?

I just returned from a trip to forest where I had a chance to observe for quite a long time!
3. When you sense "the gap" - try to notice if it really ends when thoughts (or anything else) arise. Is it temporary? Does it have a beginning or an end? Is the peace temporary?
Now I am 100% sure it never disappears. I don´t want to call it a gap really since it feels more like some peace or stillness that is just always there even though it´s easier to sense it in between thoughts. I noticed though that even when I have some thoughts I can still sense it in the background and in the moment I focus on it, my attention goes directly to it and away from the houghts.

Generally I noticed the thoughts became quieter or less distracting for me. They are still there but often it´s easier not to pay too much attention to them or not to catch them and elaborate on them. It feels like the "mental talking" is not so loud enymore. I imagine that as a result my body reacts less to the content of the thoughts.

I love this new calmness in my life!:)

Have a wonderful day!
Katerina

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adamrenton
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Re: Why do I need I?

Postby adamrenton » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:06 pm

Hello there!

So nice to chat with you again dear Katerina!

I'm very happy to see such clarity from you! This "stillness" is everywhere and permeates every single experience. It is this aliveness that is so often forgotten and seemingly buried in stories and general drama. It was never lost - just overlooked. It is always here.

Can you see a theme here? First - mistaking ourselves for thoughts - then for moments of clarity (gaps) - and finally seeing the whole experience. True unity and no identity in names and shapes. Nothing, yet everything.

________________________________________

Our dive into the deep ocean of our experience has many layers to see through. Let's concentrate on the idea of a "body".

Here are a few exercises for you to see the idea of a "body" for yourself:

BODY EXERCISES


1. Touch a desk. While doing so - concentrate on this question: Does the sensation indicate that "your hand" is "touching" a "desk" or a "desk" is "touching" "your hand"?
2. When you abandon thoughts - can you describe any "bodily" sensation? Where is your body then? What's the difference between feeling a "light wind on your face" or "your stomach rumbling" in Direct Experience?
3. When you take a walk - is there any experience of a "body"? When you take all sounds, images and thoughts into account - is "your body" really that "solid" or makes a "majority" of your experience?
4. Can you experience any inside or outside in Direct Experience? Is there a "inside sensation" or "outside sensation" in reality? Aside from thought?
5. We know now that we have no control over our decisions and movements. What is a difference between "our body moving" and "trees swaying gently" in that case? If we don't have any control over the trees and our body - what's the difference then?
6. Stand in front of a mirror and look at "your reflection". Aside from thought - is there any indication that this is "your reflection"? Is there any difference between the seeming "reflection" and what's "in front of it"?
7. This one delves into "science" a little bit and - because of it - might cross the line of inquiry and sheer speculation. If applied correctly however - it might help us nicely. Ideas might aid us - let's remember to not mistake "the moon" for "the finger pointing at it". Here it goes:

We know from many scientific sources that what we call a "body" is comprised of what folks call "atoms". In fact - everything is made of them - according to "the smart guys and gals". If we could look at "our body" very, very closely - it is in constant state of flux and mixes with everything around it in various twists and turns.
How then - is "our body" solid?
Furthermore - what we call "body" needs oxygen, sun, nutrition and many more. Isn't oxygen our body also? Sun? Nutrition?
Without going into thoughts - where is our "body" really located? How can something that is "moving" be really, truly solid?

8. Watch a movie. At some point pause it and look at the actors on the screen. Without going into thought stories - what is the difference between the actor and what's next to him/her or behind him/her? Does our Direct Experience separate the image?
9. Return to your reflection in a mirror. If the mirror is smaller - you will notice that some part of "your body" is not visible. Without going into thought stories - can you really tell that there is something aside from that "part" of the reflection?
10. Many people claim that we are our brains. Can we truly be an organ? Is there "a brain" in Direct Experience? In Direct Experience - is there any indication that "thoughts enter our brain"? That "a brain" is responsible for any action?
11. If everything is constantly moving, degrading, shifting, transforming - is there really any "dead matter"? Is there any separation and lack of "aliveness" anywhere?
12. When you loose - what seems like a part of "your body" - are you less "yourself"? Is the aliveness gone? In Direct Experience - are you less or more because of it?


Here is a first batch of "body exercises". If you need any explanation - don't hesitate to ask! I know you will take your time with those - no need to write it at this point :D

I really hope that you are well and at peace! I'm here for you and my entire heart opens for you!

Stay awesome Katerina!

Adam


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