Peacefulness

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BAYAN
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:43 am

Re: Peacefulness

Postby BAYAN » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:49 pm

Ciao Barb,

My input below :)
Is this true, that there is free will, and that "one" can choose? For whom would there be free will?
Yes, it's true. The one have free will to decide to react emotionally or not on that what is happening infront of his eyes.
During lifetime of the body, many opportunities arises and one can choose either not freely but conditioned and suffer or he can choose freely unconditioned on which path to step in.
Free will is coming from the observer (the entity which perceive life). If house is "needed", observer allows house to be happened, without any attraction and wishes (because there is no "me")!
Who "need" house - your material body (not "me")!
Is free will to chose to work in city office or consult people from distance in jungle?! I hope that you get the point.
Pure attention of the observer can attract everything without bondage!
Lift your right or left arm (or leave it down). While lifting or not lifting a decision happens, at least something happens (or not).
Arm is lifting and this is happening. No need of description. No need of one to describe it.
But there is a free will of the observer who can lift or not the arm!
Who is the "observer"? = He is your true nature!
I get your point, but did you get mine :)
Can you find the exact moment of decision and find the concrete essence which seems to make a decision? Is it really possible to find the moment of decision as well as the apparent "decider"? Or does the idea "I
decided to lift (or not) the right or left arm” emerge only after the actual event?
"I'm lifting the right arm" is just a description of what is happening. Is there any need of this description?! NO!
But who knows/sees that arm is lifting - the observer - the entity who sees thoughts and perceive life without descriptions.
There is no exact moment of decision but life itself developing and floating.
Can there really an observer be found? Is there separation like an observer - observing - observed? Or is there just observing going on?
The observer is existence. Cannot be found because only conditioned mind is searching, but can be felt as pure presence.
There is observing going on in the present moment :)

Much Hugs :)

barb
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Peacefulness

Postby barb » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:41 pm

Is this true, that there is free will, and that "one" can choose? For whom would there be free will?
Yes, it's true. The one have free will to decide to react emotionally or not on that what is happening infront of his eyes.
You contradict yourself: At one point you've said there is no „I“ no separate entity, and here you've said that "one" can choose how he reacts...

Does one choose to breathe? To digest? To walk? Is it a choice if one like apples and don't like oranges? Please contemplate about this... :)

Choices happen, but is there a separate chooser? Especially if there are big emotions like fear or panic it is clear for the most, that most choices happen out of these emotions. Sure one can train himself through meditation and mindfulness to gain equanimity, and then it would be maybe possible to stay calm and resilient in times of storm. But where did the choice for mindful training come from? If one lives in a place in the world where such information and topics are not public, how would he hear from it? Maybe he has an insight for his own, but where does this insight come from?
During lifetime of the body, many opportunities arises and one can choose either not freely but conditioned and suffer or he can choose freely unconditioned on which path to step in.
How would this be possible? If it was so, would not everybody choose nice thoughts and circumstances?

Also is this perspective a little bit dangerous. It could easily lead to judgments that one whose circumstances are not very well and don't feel very well is his own fault...

Everybody is conditioned, otherwise, it would be not possible to navigate through the world. Some can see through the conditionings, others not. But this is also not a choice by free will, it's also what is happening on its own.
Free will is coming from the observer (the entity which perceive life).
Seeing through the illusion means to see that there is no separate entity which has free will. No matter if you give this illusory entity the label „I“ or „observer“...
Pure attention of the observer can attract everything without bondage!
This is more like magical thinking and belief, and has nothing to do with nonduality and the direct pointing which LU is doing...

Please don't understand me wrong. You seem to be happy and calm, and it looks as if you've found your peace and your search is over. This is very great. I am sure there are many people out there whom you could help with your philosophy. But if you wish to become a guide at LU, then we have to work through all illusions and belief systems, no matter how uncomfortable this would be. For this, you have to be willing to look always fresh with your senses and your own experience and do not recall on things you've learned or experienced in the past...
Lift your right or left arm (or leave it down). While lifting or not lifting a decision happens, at least something happens (or not).
Arm is lifting and this is happening. No need of description. No need of one to describe it.
This is a misunderstanding: Not „description“ but „decision“ which means choice... :)
But there is a free will of the observer who can lift or not the arm!
So you would say, the observer is the separate entity, separate from life, a broken piece of the whole, and he has free will to lift the arm? What of this observer can you see-hear-feel?
Who is the "observer"? = He is your true nature!
I like to be careful with statements like this is so and so. The truth that is spoken cannot be the truth... Do you know what I mean? What can be known for sure? What can we say with absolute security? Observer, true nature is just words like many others... There is just experiencing happening - absolutely mysterious...
"I'm lifting the right arm" is just a description of what is happening. Is there any need of this description?! NO!
The same as above: Not „description“ but decision/choice...
But who knows/sees that arm is lifting - the observer - the entity who sees thoughts and perceive life without descriptions.
Entity means separate being... Would it be possible that there is separation?
How do you know that there is an observer? Have you ever seen-heard-felt it?
There is no exact moment of the decision but life itself developing and floating.
Yes exactly!
There is observing going on in the present moment :)
:)

I don't know if this is a language issue, but if you are willing to look and to see through all illusions, we have to do some experiments, for whom you would always have to look brand new and curious, like a scientist who doesn't know what comes out of it. But you should be aware that this could upset your belief system. This is not about states like peace, equanimity or anything else, it is about "what is really here now"... :)

Much love :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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BAYAN
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:43 am

Re: Peacefulness

Postby BAYAN » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:49 pm

You contradict yourself: At one point you've said there is no „I“ no separate entity, and here you've said that "one" can choose how he reacts...
Separate entity came with reactions, No reactions, no separate entity. Real life in the present moment = Observer = The "one" who sees pure life without reactions. There is no contradiction :)
Does one choose to breathe? To digest? To walk? Is it a choice if one like apples and don't like oranges? Please contemplate about this... :)
Breathe is just happening, digest is just happening. To walk where - on one hand walk is happening on other hand there is entity which guide the direction of walking!?!
Is it a choice to live or die?! It is a feeling. But who feels if there is no separate "I"?! Liking and disliking are conditioned attitude of the fragmented mind.
To contemplate with what, with broken and fragmented mind which uses past to explain now and future :) It can be felt but not explained. The answer is in the NOW!
Choices happen, but is there a separate chooser? Especially if there are big emotions like fear or panic it is clear for the most, that most choices happen out of these emotions. Sure one can train himself through meditation and mindfulness to gain equanimity, and then it would be maybe possible to stay calm and resilient in times of storm. But where did the choice for mindful training come from? If one lives in a place in the world where such information and topics are not public, how would he hear from it? Maybe he has an insight for his own, but where does this insight come from?
The chooser who use your body to lives in this dimension is separate or ......
Fear and panic can exists only in separate "I" entity. If freedom from ideas and history about yourselves is happening then who to fear and why. It there is an understanding that everything happening in life is in its perfect place and order why to fear from whatever! There is no need of training and meditations,
It is just a feeling in awareness. In this very present moment where is fear if there is no ideal of "me" who can be frightened!?
Insight is coming from the awareness of the present.
How would this be possible? If it was so, would not everybody choose nice thoughts and circumstances?
Conditioning of the one begins from childhood. Until one is in conditioned mind he will be attracted to many things which cannot keep forever, where suffer begins with its thoughts and circumstances - so no freedom.
Which makes thoughts and circumstances "nice" - conditioned mind of course, so this is also trap. If there is only thoughts describing facts and circumstances, then the state is unconditioned and nor suffer nether pain will arise.
Also is this perspective a little bit dangerous. It could easily lead to judgments that one whose circumstances are not very well and don't feel very well is his own fault...
It's not a judgment but a pure, real fact! As I mentioned there is no good or bad circumstances, there are only circumstances. If conditioned mind starts to describe with its parasite thoughts this is good, this is bad, then he is putting himself in this situation. If mental description is missing, there is no suffer.
Everybody is conditioned, otherwise, it would be not possible to navigate through the world. Some can see through the conditionings, others not. But this is also not a choice by free will, it's also what is happening on its own.
At the beginning everybody are conditioned for sure (like, dislike, good, bad, beautiful, ugly). You can navigate through the world using facts (not idea of the facts) and this is unconditioned movement (no like, no dislike, no good, no bad - just thing like they are) - freedom from the know :) and this is not happening by its own. If one wants to live as parasite in ignorance and oblivious, them there is no "free will" but new religion called - "NEW AGE".
Seeing through the illusion means to see that there is no separate entity which has free will. No matter if you give this illusory entity the label „I“ or „observer“...
See comment above ...
There is a big big difference between "I" and the "observer"!
This is more like magical thinking and belief, and has nothing to do with nonduality and the direct pointing which LU is doing...
There is no magic neither belief, nor philosophy but pure experience without past. No duality here for sure. It can be felt only.
Direct pointing is using mind to point something in mind correct? Or?
Please don't understand me wrong. You seem to be happy and calm, and it looks as if you've found your peace and your search is over. This is very great. I am sure there are many people out there whom you could help with your philosophy. But if you wish to become a guide at LU, then we have to work through all illusions and belief systems, no matter how uncomfortable this would be. For this, you have to be willing to look always fresh with your senses and your own experience and do not recall on things you've learned or experienced in the past...
I understand you quite well. There is nothing uncomfortable at all. I'm just trying to understand idea of LU.
Could you please tell me according to you what is my believe system and my illusions?
Arm is lifting and this is happening. No need of description. No need of one to describe it.

This is a misunderstanding: Not „description“ but „decision“ which means choice... :)
No, no, I meant what I meant
There is no need of something to describe that arm is lifting (then past is describing something). Here we are Not speaking for decision but for mind description.
So you would say, the observer is the separate entity, separate from life, a broken piece of the whole, and he has free will to lift the arm? What of this observer can you see-hear-feel?
No, quite opposite. He is the entity of the life, the whole, pure consciousness. He is the LIFTING of the arm. Seeing, hearing, feeling are emerging from/in "him"!
I like to be careful with statements like this is so and so. The truth that is spoken cannot be the truth... Do you know what I mean? What can be known for sure? What can we say with absolute security? Observer, true nature is just words like many others... There is just experiencing happening - absolutely mysterious...
Using word to describe something that cannot be described. Yes, the truth cannot be described because it will became a religion. Yes, nothing can be know for sure. Yes, cannot say anything with absolute security. But this what I wrote is not a statement, nor knowledge but pure feeling!!!
Experiencing happening but who is the experiencer?
"I'm lifting the right arm" is just a description of what is happening. Is there any need of this description?! NO!

The same as above: Not „description“ but decision/choice...
Already explained above.
But who knows/sees that arm is lifting - the observer - the entity who sees thoughts and perceive life without descriptions.

Entity means separate being... Would it be possible that there is separation?
How do you know that there is an observer? Have you ever seen-heard-felt it?
No separation and for sure not separate being. Separation comes when there is description of the mind,
You don't know, it can be only felt with direct seeing. As already said, seeing, hearing, feeling are emerging from/in "him". It can only be felt as pure consciousness.
I don't know if this is a language issue, but if you are willing to look and to see through all illusions, we have to do some experiments, for whom you would always have to look brand new and curious, like a scientist who doesn't know what comes out of it. But you should be aware that this could upset your belief system. This is not about states like peace, equanimity or anything else, it is about "what is really here now"... :)
Ready for experiment :)
"What is really here now" - we are speaking about this all this time :)

Hugs

barb
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Peacefulness

Postby barb » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:54 pm

First of all please let me ask you: What do you want? Why are you here at LU?

Usually, people come to LU because they are on a spiritual search, they want to find something and want to end the search. In your case, it looks like your search is over and you are satisfied with where you are at. My job is not to convince someone of something, but to guide one to look. You are convinced of your point of view and that is ok. I don't want to argue. My job is to ask questions that the client then answers from direct experience. This is not a place for discussions...

Please read this to find out what LU is about

http://liberationunleashed.com/

and

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Here is an article about what direct pointing is:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/reso ... implified/
Direct pointing is using mind to point something in mind correct? 
No, direct pointing is to point to actual experience. It should encourage the client to look at what can really be experienced right now with the senses, what can be seen-heard-felt-tasted-smelt, and to point out the fairytale world of thoughts.
What is "mind"? Can you see-hear-feel "mind"? Or is this word just which we use for communication?

It's good to take some time to see what direct experience is - that makes all other steps easier.
Sure, if I ask you what the weather is like, you can google it for a moment, think of it and search in your memories, what the weather forecast has said, call someone - or you just get up and look out of the window. You can only be certain if you have looked. Right?

If you look closely, can you experience something in a different way, than seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling physical, thinking (just the process of thinking, not the content)? Can you find anything besides that?
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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BAYAN
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:43 am

Re: Peacefulness

Postby BAYAN » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:19 pm

Barb dear,

Usually real communications are bidirectional.
I felt emotion.
In direct experiencing there are no emotions because there are no one to express it (there is no "me").
In the past couple of years I'm leaving in the real present moment, directly experiencing life without judgements, predictions, thoughts, fears, etc.
I use thoughts only when needed in material world to maintain life of the body and that's it. During presence in life, there are no thoughts at all.
It's not a good life or different life, it is what it is - complete freedom from "me" trying to "describe" .... eternal peace.
Feelings of the senses are there, but the emotions are gone.
Everything that my being sees, hears, feels, smells, tastes, are not affecting the inner world, the peace (absence of any emotions) - My being is the very seeing, the hearing, the feeling, the smelling, the tasting (eternal bliss).
This state is a solution of all/any problems in life. Problems persists only in conditioned mind of the fake "me".
This state, can get rid the one, for sure, from depression and diseases - if having air and earth in perfect balance (mind and body) = peacefulness.
There is no story of you anymore, just life by itself.
If physical pain appears it is only on the body, there are no influence on mentality - complete peace (I was in invalid chair for a month and I know what I'm speaking about).
At the beginning there was a search when there was also a searcher. After, when searcher disappears, only present moment left, living it the now.
I'm convinced only in presence, in what it is .... Here there is no point of view! If there is point of view, then there is a thinker and thoughts and past.
Language that we are using are only words that we use for communication and nothing else. Word is not the thing, it is just a description of the thing.
There is a seer of the thoughts which are rising in the mind - my loved "observer" :) - This is a fact! This is direct experience!
Before there was experience of seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. But when experiencer gone for good, only direct perceiving left - direct experience! The one became the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, etc... There is no one to experience this.

I want to thank you for all your time, but now our paths are separating .....

All the best Barb,

barb
Posts: 1077
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Peacefulness

Postby barb » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:11 pm

Thank you Bayan for letting me know :)

Much love, barb
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom


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