The One That Became Zero

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ShunyaZero
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The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:41 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The understanding is there. Belief is there.
Intellectually, the fact that there's no doer - just doing - has been analyzed & accepted long back.
I (self) is just a concept, a construct of language, meant to help one convey thoughts, emotions, ideas related to oneself.
"I" is always subjective, never objective, & hence can't be real.

What are you looking for at LU?
Theoretical understanding is there - practical understanding is needed.
What lies beyond "self" has been seen many a times - although not for long.
Hence, how to reside in "that state" permanently is what needs to be known.

More importantly, practical applications of this knowledge have to be understood.
With truth comes relief, power, benefit - these sides of this "no-real-self" truth need exploring.

And most importantly, the validation of this truth as the ultimate truth is required.
Validation simply means that : before liberation "self" is the truth, which is no more so after liberation when "no-self" becomes the new truth.
Is it sure that there's no truth beyond this which will make even this "no-self" idea false?
(after all, this is just a new way of looking at things - there could always be another "new way")

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Simply put, a documented Q&A with a separate intelligent mind/brain.
Writing has helped in the past, organizing thoughts, analyzing false patterns, making self-inquiry way more structured.
With a separate mind, the assumption is that, the questions would be more "random" so to speak.
The fact that the guide has "seen" the truth assures quicker navigation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Philosophy has always been at the center of the life.
The one school of thought that always really rung true was Stoicism.
The ideas & practices were understood to be extremely fundamental and practical.
(Read about & practiced Stoicism a lot)

Always believed that, at some level, Stoicism and Non-Duality go hand in hand.

A chance exploration of Non-Duality with Nisargadatta's "I Am That" changed everything.
The theory seemed fantastical but true at the same time.
But such a fundamental truth, so close to the eyes, that it's overlooked (can't be seen!)
(Read about & practiced Non-Dualism a lot)

This led into self-inquiry which has helped in dropping a lot of false beliefs; but seems like a lot more exploration is pending.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11
~ Shunya Zero

barb
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby barb » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:16 pm

Hi :)

I would like to assist you in exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions.

At the beginning a few explanations:

This is not a "normal dialogue". Essentially, it's about asking you questions and assigning tasks and you answering them from your direct experience. See what you can do with your five senses and which thoughts you can observe. Look each fresh and do not call you on books you've read or experiences that you have ever made.

You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience...
This simple seeing also notices that there is no self here - there's just what is going on, that this is already going on for everyone right now. :)

It is important that you try to be 100% honest in your own interest ... For the duration of this investigation, please leave all books, videos, satsangs other threads in this forum or whatever on the subject, which could affect direct viewing and perception. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that, but not necessary.

To keep your process flowing here, it would be good if you could answer every day at least every second day. If it does not fit or you need more time just let me know.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch that can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://liberationunleashed.com/

To begin with, so that we become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the following questions::


What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?
What will change, what will remain the same? What should change?
What do you expect, what do you hope, what do you want?




Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.


I'm looking forward to your answers :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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ShunyaZero
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:56 pm

Hey barb,

Thanks a lot for responding.
Will be honest and brief with the answers. (unless specifically asked to explain)
Also, there are no issues in responding quickly, there won’t be much lag in responses from this end.
What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?
It would surely be a refreshing change in point of view, to say the least.
A new way of experiencing anything/everything. (Of course, “new” way here simply means the “forgotten” way)
Every time it has happened (for howsoever short duration), it suddenly seems/feels light and less burdensome. As if, prior to it, everything was being taken way more seriously than it warranted.
What will change, what will remain the same? What should change?
Everything would remain the same. Everything real that is.
All that’s false “will/should” change. False beliefs (limiting ones included) will be dropped.
Most importantly, once seen through the illusion “should” never take over again.
What do you expect, what do you hope, what do you want?
Expectation is to shun all false beliefs – no matter how dear.
Hope is that the change will be permanent, “once and for all”.
Want is to know the absolute, objective, and undeniable truth. (which doesn’t lead to any further seeking)

Awaiting eagerly for response.

~ Shunya Zero
~ Shunya Zero

barb
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby barb » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:59 pm

Thank's for your honest answers :)

Your expectation is not too high, some of them may arrive with seeing through the illusion, some later and some maybe never. But for the purpose of our investigation please put them all together in a box, give them in a rocket and shoot them to the moon (try really to imagine it)... :) Expectations are the biggest hindrance for clear seeing what is here right now and were ever here...
Every time it has happened (for howsoever short duration), it suddenly seems/feels light and less burdensome. As if, prior to it, everything was being taken way more seriously than it warranted.
This was an experience that was also seen. As it is seen if there is taking something seriously. We are not looking for content of experience, like light feelings, etc... We are looking if there is somebody here who owns these experiences. So please put this expectation also aside and recognize that this is just a nice memory... :)
Want is to know the absolute, objective, and undeniable truth. (which doesn’t lead to any further seeking)
Who or what wants to know and why?

Dive deep into this question...


Please write down all the reactions, body sensations, feelings and thoughts that come up when you read these sentences:

There is no I, never, nowhere, and has never existed. There is no one who experiences something, no one who thinks, decides, has control and acts. There is no one who could know the absolute, objective, undeniable truth.


I'm curious what you'll find :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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ShunyaZero
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:58 pm

Observed for a while.
Sadly, found nothing useful yet.

There are no specific body sensations in reaction to this.
No special feelings either. May be a little frustration, but guess that's to be expected.

It's just thoughts. Quite a lot of thoughts, but more or less of the same kind i.e. pondering the futility of all this.
There is no I, never, nowhere, and has never existed.
Following thoughts came up:
  • Who says this statement?
  • This means, no one knows anything.
  • Who/what is to be believed then?
  • No one can be helped in understanding this truth either.
  • Because no one is there who is under the "illusion", is there?
  • This statement could be true, but who knows, it could easily be false as well.
  • Why even have this discussion in the first place?
There is no one who experiences something, no one who thinks, decides, has control and acts.
Similar thoughts keep popping up:
  • If there's no one experiencing anything then what can be trusted?
  • Everyone's just "talking out of their ass", excuse my french.
  • Who came to this website and why?
  • Who is even writing these words? Why are these words being written?
  • It's just chain of events which started, nobody even knows when.
  • Life happened, various philosophies were explored, leading to the idea of "no-self".
  • A post was created on this forum by ShunyaZero, barb replied, so on & so forth, and now this writing/typing again.
  • Not that all this seems unbelievable but no way/proof to believe in it either.
There is no one who could know the absolute, objective, undeniable truth.
Similar thoughts again:
  • Then what is the point of this whole exercise?
  • This "Direct Pointing" also isn't gonna achieve anything, right?
  • Who would achieve "liberation" that this website, and many others who've seen through the illusion, talk about?
  • If no one'n getting "liberated", then what's the point?
Please respond with what you make of all this.
Hoping you can see something in it.

Meanwhile, will deep-dive into the following.
Who or what wants to know and why?
Seems there's a lot to be explored in this specific question.

Look forward to hearing from you again.
~ Shunya Zero

barb
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby barb » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:33 pm

Following thoughts came up:

This means, no one knows anything.
Exactly... ;) Isn't that great?

There is a big difference between knowing and seeing.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully, you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind but we are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in the present moment to moment experience.
Who/what is to be believed then?
Why believe anything? To have an anchor to hold on? What if no belief is true?
This statement could be true, but who knows, it could easily be false as well.
That's what we wanna find out :)
Why even have this discussion in the first place?
Because that's what's happening, isn't it?
If there's no one experiencing anything then what can be trusted?
Everyone's just "talking out of their ass", excuse my french.
Who came to this website and why?
Who is even writing these words? Why are these words being written?
It's just chain of events which started, nobody even knows when.
Life happened, various philosophies were explored, leading to the idea of "no-self".
A post was created on this forum by ShunyaZero, barb replied, so on & so forth, and now this writing/typing again.
Not that all this seems unbelievable but no way/proof to believe in it either.
Great insights, yes it's just all happening. But only when you can recognize this in your own experience, then you can see this...
Then what is the point of this whole exercise?
This "Direct Pointing" also isn't gonna achieve anything, right?
What if the achievement is, that there is no achievement? That this what is here right now has to be enough? Now mystical truth hidden somewhere...

Most of the time, we are in the fairytale of thought content, not participating in the life through which the body goes.

Try what it is like to be in reality. In doing so, you will reduce reality to the names that are closest to perception. Do this exercise as often as possible throughout the day.

Simply name any experience as seeing-hearing-sensing-smelling-tasting-thinking (when you are alone then speak the label out loud...)

Do this while becoming aware of various things:

To see a tree, simply = seeing
The smell of coffee = smelling
The wind in the face = sensing
The toothpaste on the toothbrush = tasting
Hear a car pass by = hearing
Thought of the work = thinking (Thoughts can be words and mental images).
Thought of enlightenment = thinking
Tension in the neck = sensing
etc...

There are two kinds of thought:

1- The thought points to something perceptible via the senses at this moment - the thought 'labels'.
2- The thought points to another thought, this is thought-content and the story being told.

Simply subclassify all the experiences in these categories that are all direct experiences and tell me how that goes and what you've noticed - please give me a few examples.


Take your time... :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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ShunyaZero
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:05 am

Just started looking. Let’s see what comes out.

The weather's a bit cold today over here = Sensing
Mother & wife are talking in the kitchen = Hearing
Aroma of food being prepared = Smelling
Food looks/seems delicious = Seeing
Tried to have a little of it = Tasting
Food's good, tasty = Thinking
Itching in the ear = Sensing
Songs being played in the lawn outside = Hearing
It's too loud. Irritation = Thinking
Staring at the laptop screen now (waiting for next thought) = Seeing
"It's Holi Today." a random thought pops up = Thinking

Further thoughts come in, related to this. Everything’s just predefined labels. Such a simple statement on the surface, “It’s Holi Today.” On delving deeper, just labels.

“Holi” – A name given to a Hindu festival. Nothing universal. It means different things to different people (depending on which part of India they come from). To most of the people living in the world it doesn’t even mean anything at all (they haven’t even heard of it in their lives). Just a concept!

“Today” – A construct of language. Completely subjective, based on your exact position (latitude & longitude) on the planet/globe. There are so many different calendars and time zones that this word means different things to different people. Just a tool created and agreed upon by everyone for ease of communication. Again, just a concept!

Everything we think, say, or write is just full of “concepts”. Just “labels”, more and more “labels”. Nothing can be confirmed or denied. Nor is there any point in “confirmation” or “denial”. Doesn’t really matter, does it?

But still, all these thoughts, just keep running in the head. The brain, keeps working over time, thinking random thoughts. As it can be seen, even right now, thoughts about “meaninglessness of thoughts” just keep pouring in. Can’t control these thoughts. It’s just an endless stream of commentary on past, present, and future.

In fact, at the moment it actually feels that way. As if there’s a multi-dimensional movie being “played” (don’t know by whom) and “watched” (by this “me”). And there’s an unending voice-over in the head about past (thoughts about what has happened – factual or perceptions), present (current experience and perceptions about it), and future (anticipations, anxiety, plans, hopes, dreams).

It’s just a movie, and it’s just a commentary on it.

A question pops up.
Who is “watching” this movie and “listening to” this commentary?
This revives an unanswered question which was saved for deep-diving later.
Who or what wants to know (the absolute truth) and why?
More relevant question might be
Who’s asking all these questions?
These questions are also just thoughts. Then
Who thinks?
This chain of thoughts stops here.
Would like to hear your thoughts on this now.
~ Shunya Zero

barb
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby barb » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:50 pm

Just started looking. Let’s see what comes out.

The weather's a bit cold today over here = Sensing
Mother & wife are talking in the kitchen = Hearing
Aroma of food being prepared = Smelling
Food looks/seems delicious = Seeing
Tried to have a little of it = Tasting
Food's good, tasty = Thinking
Itching in the ear = Sensing
Songs being played in the lawn outside = Hearing
It's too loud. Irritation = Thinking
Staring at the laptop screen now (waiting for next thought) = Seeing
"It's Holi Today." a random thought pops up = Thinking
Good job! Try to make this labeling of direct experience a new habit... :)
Everything we think, say, or write is just full of “concepts”. Just “labels”, more and more “labels”. Nothing can be confirmed or denied. Nor is there any point in “confirmation” or “denial”. Doesn’t really matter, does it?
:)
But still, all these thoughts, just keep running in the head. The brain, keeps working over time, thinking random thoughts. As it can be seen, even right now, thoughts about “meaninglessness of thoughts” just keep pouring in. Can’t control these thoughts. It’s just an endless stream of commentary on past, present, and future.

It’s just a movie, and it’s just a commentary on it.
Very good insight :)

Let's have a closer look at the nature of thought:
Sit quietly for a couple of minutes, breathe slowly and relax. Then begin watching gently the thoughts:

1. Where do thoughts come from and where do they go? Look curiously at the next thoughts.

2. Can you predict which thought will come next? Can you stop it if you don't like it? Can you remove a thought once it has appeared?

3. Can you decide NOT to think for a longer period?

4. Can you decide to think only beautiful and pleasant thoughts?

5. Think of a number between 1 and 100. Do you know what number will come before it appears?

6. Is the thought “I” a special thought? Or does it come from the same place as the others?

7. Can a thought think other thoughts?

8. Can you find a thinker? Like: thinker - thinking - thought? Is there a separation findable anywhere? Or is there just thinking happening?


A question pops up.
Who is “watching” this movie and “listening to” this commentary?
This revives an unanswered question which was saved for deep-diving later.
Who or what wants to know (the absolute truth) and why?
More relevant question might be
Who’s asking all these questions?
These questions are also just thoughts. Then
Who thinks?
This chain of thoughts stops here.
What if this silence after the stop of thoughts is the answer? What if there is no „who“ findable?
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:18 pm

1. Where do thoughts come from and where do they go? Look curiously at the next thoughts.
Thoughts don't come from, or go, anywhere.
A thought just appears in the mind. And then it isn't there anymore. (replaced by a brief silence or next thought)
It always is part of a thought-stream, with only one in the "now". (if we take "now" to be a single point in the present)
2. Can you predict which thought will come next? Can you stop it if you don't like it? Can you remove a thought once it has appeared?
While trying to predict, only the thought "What could be the next thought?" is repeated, over and over.
Stream of thoughts can't be stopped. Although, there could be a brief pause in it from time to time.
If you don't like the current stream of thoughts, then with practice & persistent effort, it can be replaced with the one's you like. (although not to 100% extent)
Thought, once appeared, can't be removed. It just ceases to exist in the "now" (present). As time moves on, next thoughts come in and replace it.
3. Can you decide NOT to think for a longer period?
No. Most of the thoughts are automatic reactions to something happening in our field of experience.
Something will happen (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensing) and a thought will acknowledge this happening.
4. Can you decide to think only beautiful and pleasant thoughts?
No. Not "ONLY" pleasant thoughts. But one's brain/mind can be trained, with practice & persistent effort, to keep negative thinking patterns in check and actively replace with positive thinking patterns.
5. Think of a number between 1 and 100. Do you know what number will come before it appears?
This one's difficult to observe. It seems that a number is being chosen (rapidly) from the catalog of numbers 1 to 100.
Don't know what number will come up, but the number is arrived at. The choice certainly seems to be there.
6. Is the thought “I” a special thought? Or does it come from the same place as the others?
Thought labels "I", "Me", and "My" are all qualifiers that appear with all the thoughts. (either explicitly or implicitly)
So in that sense they come from the same place i.e. a thought will appear and "I", "Me", or "My" get attached to it. (to qualify it)
But "I", "Me", and "My" are special in a sense. Unlike all other thoughts (that have a backing experience) "I", "Me", and "My" have nothing observable.
For example, when "looking" at the car in the garage happens, the thought "car" (with implicit "my") or "my car" (explicit) appears.
But of course, "car" is backed by "seeing" experience, but there's no experience backing the "my".
In other words, "car" can be pointed to, "my" (or "I") can't be.
7. Can a thought think other thoughts?
A thought can't think as it has no such faculty.
But one thought can be the "experience" based on which another thought can appear.
Basically meaning that one thought can start a whole chain of thoughts (commentary) on its own.
But that, of course, doesn't mean that this chain was thought by that thought. So the answer is no.
8. Can you find a thinker? Like: thinker - thinking - thought? Is there a separation findable anywhere? Or is there just thinking happening?
Not sure if this can be answered using any known languages. It's like asking "Can eyes see themselves?"
Talking mathematically, one can draw a straight line/arrow from any one point to another. But no one can draw a straight line/arrow from a point to itself. (because such a line/arrow will have no length and hence can't be called a line/arrow)
In other words, a point can point towards anything but itself. Does that mean the point doesn't exist?
Similarly, if "I" (wherever it may be) can not point to (observe) itself. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
What if this silence after the stop of thoughts is the answer? What if there is no „who“ findable?
Maybe. How would one know? (especially if, as you say, nothing changes after this realization)

barb, could you please talk a bit about how your life (or how you live) changed (if at all) after your "liberation"?
It might help.
~ Shunya Zero

barb
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby barb » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:48 pm

Thoughts don't come from, or go, anywhere.
A thought just appears in the mind. And then it isn't there anymore. (replaced by a brief silence or next thought)
Can you find such a thing like „mind“? What is mind, what of mind can be seen-heard-felt?
5. Think of a number between 1 and 100. Do you know what number will come before it appears?
This one's difficult to observe. It seems that a number is being chosen (rapidly) from the catalog of numbers 1 to 100. The choice certainly seems to be there.
How does this „choosing“ going on? Yes, choice happens apparently, is there a chooser who makes choices? Or is choosing just happening?
8. Can you find a thinker? Like: thinker - thinking - thought? Is there a separation findable anywhere? Or is there just thinking happening?
Not sure if this can be answered using any known languages. It's like asking "Can eyes see themselves?"
Talking mathematically, one can draw a straight line/arrow from any one point to another. But no one can draw a straight line/arrow from a point to itself. (because such a line/arrow will have no length and hence can't be called a line/arrow)
In other words, a point can point towards anything but itself. Does that mean the point doesn't exist?
This question is not meant to be answered intellectually (of course no question here is meant to answer in this way ;) )

If I ask you if you can find this or that, then I ask you to look with your senses. If there is thinking, can there be a thinker seen-heard-felt-smelt-tasted? Or is just thinking going on?

You can think about all this stuff forever, and if there really comes an intellectual answer, it will bring 100 new questions... :) Therefore try really not to look at what thoughts are suggesting, LOOK instead always what your direct experience is right now. It's absolutely simple but thoughts come in an makes it complicated. It's too simple for thoughts, therefore it is not easy... :)
Similarly, if "I" (wherever it may be) can not point to (observe) itself. Does that mean it doesn't exist?
What is the purpose of such questions? It's all conditioned thought content in which the whole world believes and very few questions it... Much philosophies ponder about that, but here is not the place for philosophy, here is the place to LOOK with the senses. And maybe when often enough looked, the thoughts will go to rest in this question... :)

The other question is: if there was an „I“ findable, what would it see? And it is a great difference between there is no separate „I“, and you don't exist.

For example, look at the word „fire“:
Is there really fire? There is wood/coal, flames, embers, etc., is any of them "fire"? Or is that just a word we use to communicate with each other?
Now, look at the word "I/me". What does this word refer to? There are thoughts, feelings, physical perceptions, heard sounds, seen things - are any of them an "I"? Or is that just a word we use for communication?

There is “being” isn`t it? What do you have to know to be?
barb, could you please talk a bit about how your life (or how you live) changed (if at all) after your "liberation"?
It might help

As there is no single snowflake like the other, there are no similar experiences. Therefore it is absolutely irrelevant how it is for me. Concentrate on your own direct experience, maybe you can learn through looking to trust your beingness and to stand in your own shoes... :)
Look if there is help needed at the moment. If there is no belief in thought, is there a problem? Is something missing right now?

(Ok here is a little bit how it is for me after the gatecrash: search stopped, no more questions, no believes, no longer the imagination of a broken piece of life from the whole, just life life-ing, absolutely uninterestedness in what others say or have said what would be right or wrong, an "underlying Okayness" with what is...)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:41 pm

I was almost worried there for a moment that you were not gonna be able to keep your schedule today.
And you replied right when I was thinking about you... :) Weird coincidence.
Can you find such a thing like „mind“? What is mind, what of mind can be seen-heard-felt?
There's nothing like "mind". I just use it interchangably for "field of consciousness".
But then again there's nothing like "consciousness" either. Is there?
I'll get into this in response to one of your other statements in my next reply.
I really have to be somewhere else right now. Not to mention, I want to really collect my thoughts before I reply to you.

But before I go.
If I ask you if you can find this or that, then I ask you to look with your senses. If there is thinking, can there be a thinker seen-heard-felt-smelt-tasted? Or is just thinking going on?
I don't think there are only 5 senses.
You can't see-hear-taste-smell-touch electricity, but it's there.
Even simpler example, you can't see-hear-taste-smell-touch air, but it's there.

Agreed, I certainly can't see-hear-taste-smell-touch my "self" (or "I"), but it's "felt" (in a very convoluted sense of this word) to be there. May be by "felt", I actually mean "believed".
I still don't claim that "I" exists. It may or may not.

We're still working towards the "truth". So please bear with me.
I'll post soon... Thanks for helping.
~ Shunya Zero

barb
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby barb » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:59 pm


I don't think there are only 5 senses.
You can't see-hear-taste-smell-touch electricity, but it's there.
Even simpler example, you can't see-hear-taste-smell-touch air, but it's there.
Really, it does not help a little bit in our investigation what one thinks that is there... :) Maybe there may be more than 5 senses, maybe there are hidden ghost worlds, maybe this is all a dream... Who knows? Who could ever know? But there is one thing, the only one that can be known for sure: Beingness/Experiencing/Perceiving is... Have you ever had experienced the absence of perceiving/experience/being? No matter if this is a dream at night or at day – there is always perceiving. That's the point where we want to arrive at. We try to steam all down nearest the absolute. The absolute cannot be spoken, but the word perceiving/experiencing is the nearest to it before concepts kick in...

Science has made measure instruments to measure electricity, air, bacterias, stars, planets and other things which cannot be seen-heard-felt-smelt-tasted without these instruments. They are helpers, like glasses or a microscope or telescope. Therefore it can be measured. Aren't words like air, electricity and so on not also just concepts?
Agreed, I certainly can't see-hear-taste-smell-touch my "self" (or "I"), but it's "felt" (in a very convoluted sense of this word) to be there. May be by "felt", I actually mean "believed".
I still don't claim that "I" exists. It may or may not
We will later have a look at this „felt“ sense of „me“...

Take your time, we are not on the run, it would be good anyway if you let the questions sink in a little sometimes and keep looking again and again ...:)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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ShunyaZero
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:05 am

We ("you" and "I") are communicating. This necessitates the use of a shared language (English in this case).
All the words and symbols, in any language (including mathematics, and all kinds of sciences), are simply concepts that we (human beings) have created to make communication easier. Ironically, it seems to have made matters worse.
During any communication, the two people involved are never on the same page, no matter how similar their thought-process is.

For an example, two people might talk about "God" - but they have completely different understanding of what that term means. This leads to a lot of miscommunication and discord (even if they believe in the same religion and God).
So, it's said that no two people can think alike. (They're unique snowflakes.)

Now, take an analogous parallel of this when it comes to "thinking".
If talking is "two-person-communication", then thinking is "one-person-communication" (in a manner of speaking).
When thoughts emerge, there's always an apparent conversation that "I" have with "myself".
But (and this is a big BUT), neither "I" nor "myself" exist.
There's no one ("I") having a conversation with no one ("myself").
It's just a thought. Just thinking happening. Without a thinker.

For example, when a thought "I am an atheist" arises, it basically means that "I" tell "myself" that "I am an atheist".
And this is absolutely ridiculous. Why would "I" need to tell "myself" that "I am an atheist"?
Whatever "I" has to tell/express/communicate, "myself" already knows (since, these two refer to the same "person").
Now that this is seen, the illusion becomes ridiculous as well. The truth is revealed (or rather the veil of lies just drop).
And it becomes obvious. Absolutely obvious!
There's no one ("I") telling no one ("myself") that "I am an atheist".
Once again (and it can't be emphasized enough), it's just a thought. Just thinking happening. Without a thinker.

It is seen now...
~ Shunya Zero

barb
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Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby barb » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:57 am

Now that this is seen, the illusion becomes ridiculous as well. The truth is revealed (or rather the veil of lies just drop).
And it becomes obvious. Absolutely obvious!
There's no one ("I") telling no one ("myself") that "I am an atheist".
Once again (and it can't be emphasized enough), it's just a thought. Just thinking happening. Without a thinker.
Wonderful insight :)

Do I understand you right, that you have clearly seen that separate "I" is just an illusion?

Let's have a look at separation in general:

Pause for two minutes and listen attentively to all the sounds that can be heard at the moment. Is there a hearer, separated from hearing and what is heard? Where does listening happen? Watch out for distant sounds. Where is the listener now? Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there. Is it possible to define it?
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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ShunyaZero
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:39 am

Re: The One That Became Zero

Postby ShunyaZero » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:41 pm

Do I understand you right, that you have clearly seen that separate "I" is just an illusion?
True.
Is there a hearer, separated from hearing and what is heard?
No. Just hearing happening.
Where does listening happen?
In the "field of experience" (awareness, or consciousness - whatever one may call it).
Same field where seeing, tasting, smelling, touching, sensing, thinking, feeling etc happen.
Watch out for distant sounds. Where is the listener now?
There's no listener. Just sounds, in the same "field" as mentioned above.
Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there. Is it possible to define it?
There's no here/there/near/far/close/away. Everything just "is".
~ Shunya Zero


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