Curiously Exploring

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:03 am

Hi Nicky,
I suppose I've felt that mind is like a container that thought passes through, like a holder of thought. But in my experience there is no such thing. It's a belief I can't prove in my experience.
“I’ve felt that mind is like a container…” – please look for this feeling.

What does this feeling of a mind being a container of thoughts actually feels like?
Where does this feeling is located?
How big it is? What shape?

In my experience I cannot find a mind. I think the concept of mind must be a thought.
Do you THINK that the mind must be a thought, or actually SEE that there is literally no mind other than the thought/word ‘mind’?

Is this an intellectual understanding from a logical conclusion, or it's rather experiential?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:48 pm

Hi Vivien,
What does this feeling of a mind being a container of thoughts actually feels like?
Where does this feeling is located?
How big it is? What shape?
I'm struggling with this. I attempt to go to my experience but then it's like I can sense the questions in my head. I can't explain what that sensation is because it isn't like hearing a voice and I can't see the questions/thoughts but it feels like it's going on in my head. Almost like a silent narrator. It all feels like it's happening in my head. I feel like I'll lost the ability to go to my experience because when I try it seems my attention is going to my head area.
Do you THINK that the mind must be a thought, or actually SEE that there is literally no mind other than the thought/word ‘mind’?
I don't see it yet. Even as I'm typing this I can sense the words in my head!
Is this an intellectual understanding from a logical conclusion, or it's rather experiential?
Yes it's intellectual I'm not there in experience. Can you give me any pointers about how to try to experience?

Sorry I'm not getting it. Thanks
Nicky

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:05 am

Hi Nicky,
I attempt to go to my experience but then it's like I can sense the questions in my head. I can't explain what that sensation is because it isn't like hearing a voice and I can't see the questions/thoughts but it feels like it's going on in my head. Almost like a silent narrator. It all feels like it's happening in my head. I feel like I'll lost the ability to go to my experience because when I try it seems my attention is going to my head area.
Just because the attention is going to the sensations of the head, does it mean that the thoughts happening in the head?

Yes, the attention goes to the sensation of the head. And the what?
It’s not a problem of itself.

The question is HOW it is experienced that thoughts are happening in the head?

Is there may be a visual thoughts showing thoughts being inside the head?

Can you find the EXACT sensation in the head where thoughts are appearing?


When you’ve found the exact sensation, stay with it, and observe it.
Can the appearance of a thought be actually FELT?
If yes, how?

How do you know that what is felt there at that location is the appearance of a thought?

Does the raw sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s the feeling of the appearance of a thought or it’s there because of a thought?
What is it that is communicating this information?


Please inquiry into these questions thoroughly. Particularly pay attention of the sensations of the head, and find proofs that those sensations are there because of thoughts appearing.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:32 pm

Hi Vivien,

I've spent a couple of hours today inquiring on your questions. For the last few weeks I've had some intense feelings of dread (which is very unusual for me) and during inquiry these became very intense. My awareness was moving from your questions to the sensations of dread, back and forward. I'm just being with the dread feelings.

What came up in the inquiry is that I've been trying to find thought like an object I can locate, get a hold of and explore. Today I experienced thought more like a movement than a seperate object. Like a movement of water in a stream rather than like a stick I could grab. It felt like the closer I tried to get it just flowed away. This evening I was lying down and at some point it even seemed that thought was all around me, not sure if that makes sense. Using the stream metaphor I can now see that if I've thought of myself as the stream I've been thinking of thought as seperate objects in the stream but it is all stream it seems.

If you'd like me to I will inquire on your questions again tomorrow so I can come up with specific answers to each but the dread feelings today were very distracting.

I'm wondering if this dread feeling is part of the processing of old conditioning that needs to take place.

Many thanks
Nicky

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:44 am

Hi Nicky,
For the last few weeks I've had some intense feelings of dread (which is very unusual for me) and during inquiry these became very intense. My awareness was moving from your questions to the sensations of dread, back and forward. I'm just being with the dread feelings.
Thank you for sharing this with me. It’s important because fear can be a hindrance of going further. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.

Ask the fear as if it were a some kind of entity:

What do you want to protect me from?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:33 pm

Hi Vivien,
Thank you, I had a sense that this is what has been happening with the fear. I'm going to continue inquiring with these questions but so far this is what has come up
What do you want to protect me from?
What came was the sense that the fear is protecting me against sudden life events out of my control, sudden family deaths, my child needing heart surgery, my husband having an affair and leaving, financial worries. All of these things have happened unexpectedly and it felt like this fear somehow could protect against these type of things happening again, bonkers!
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?
I wouldn't be safe. I might not be able to provide for my children. I wouldn't be me somehow. I might lose my friends, my life.
Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
I need to spend more time with this.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?
Again I need to spend more time with this. Intellectually I want to say unconditional love but experientially I can't say that is true.

Thanks
Nicky

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:52 am

Hi Nicky,

It seems to me from your replies that this fear is not related to this inquiry, but to your life circumstances and I cannot help you with that.

Do you think that this is a good time for you to do this inquiry?

If yes, I would like to ask you to go back to my previous questions, and look with them very thoroughly.
Please reply to every question one-by-one.
Be very careful to examine your immediate experience and NOT your interpretation of your experience.
So here are the questions again:
I attempt to go to my experience but then it's like I can sense the questions in my head. I can't explain what that sensation is because it isn't like hearing a voice and I can't see the questions/thoughts but it feels like it's going on in my head. Almost like a silent narrator. It all feels like it's happening in my head. I feel like I'll lost the ability to go to my experience because when I try it seems my attention is going to my head area.
Just because the attention is going to the sensations of the head, does it mean that the thoughts happening in the head?

Yes, the attention goes to the sensation of the head. And the what?
It’s not a problem of itself.

The question is HOW it is experienced that thoughts are happening in the head?
Is there may be a visual thoughts showing thoughts being inside the head?

Can you find the EXACT sensation in the head where thoughts are appearing?


When you’ve found the exact sensation, stay with it, and observe it.
Can the appearance of a thought be actually FELT?
If yes, how?

How do you know that what is felt there at that location is the appearance of a thought?
Does the raw sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s the feeling of the appearance of a thought or it’s there because of a thought?
What is it that is communicating this information?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:46 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your reply. I've taken some time to consider the question of this is the right time. I think it is. None of those life events are happening now and I feel I've come to terms with them and I have a happy life. I was trying to convey that the seperate self or fear falsely gives the impression that I need it to navigate the possibilities of future negative events which I know is untrue.
Just because the attention is going to the sensations of the head, does it mean that the thoughts happening in the head?
No, attention going to the head is not proof that thoughts are happening in the head.
Yes, the attention goes to the sensation of the head. And the what?
It’s not a problem of itself.
The sensation is just a sensation anything beyond the sensation is an I interpretation of that sensation.
The question is HOW it is experienced that thoughts are happening in the head?
Is there may be a visual thoughts showing thoughts being inside the head?
It feels like attention is drawn to a sensation then thought appears to make sense of or interpret the sensation. The thoughts is like a narrator trying to claim the sensation.
Can you find the EXACT sensation in the head where thoughts are appearing?
There doesn't seem to be a fixed location where the sensation is appearing. Sometimes there are images, sometimes a silent voice.


When you’ve found the exact sensation, stay with it, and observe it.
Can the appearance of a thought be actually FELT?
If yes, how?
I can experience various sensations occurring in my head but a thought cannot be felt. It feels like sensations are happening and then thought comes in like subtitles. I'm not very good at explaining this.
How do you know that what is felt there at that location is the appearance of a thought?
Does the raw sensation itself suggest in any way that it’s the feeling of the appearance of a thought or it’s there because of a thought?
What is it that is communicating this information?
There is no evidence that what is felt there is because of a thought. The sensation is pure sensation. I guess thought interprets it as thought.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:24 am

Hi Nicky,
I've taken some time to consider the question of this is the right time. I think it is. None of those life events are happening now and I feel I've come to terms with them and I have a happy life.
All right, then let’s go on. If fear or resistance come up to this investigation, then please let me know, so we can have a look on it. But if fear due to your life circumstances, that is a different topic.
I can experience various sensations occurring in my head but a thought cannot be felt. It feels like sensations are happening and then thought comes in like subtitles. I'm not very good at explaining this.
Yes, exactly. This is a good description. Thoughts like subtitles.

But more often than not, thoughts are NOT the accurate description of what is.
But since we don’t investigate these thoughts, we take them as reality.
So our whole investigation will be about testing the validity of thoughts against reality/experience.

Here is an exercise for you. Please repeat this a few times before replying.

Think of something that makes you happy.

Is there a Nicky creating that emotion?
Is there a thought creating that emotion?
Or an image creating it?
What is creating it?

Is there a Nicky feeling happy?
Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?
How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:39 pm

Hi Vivien,
Think of something that makes you happy.

Is there a Nicky creating that emotion?
No, there is no Nicky creating the emotion.
Is there a thought creating that emotion?
This one is trickier. Part of my work is a 3 principles practitioner and one of the things we teach is thoughts create feelings. Are you differentiating feelings and emotions? I attempted to let go of my beliefs and what seemed true today was the emotion was there as there were no thoughts resisting or making a story up about the emotion that was there.
Or an image creating it?
An image came to mind but it doesn't feel like the image is creating the emotion.
What is creating it?
In truth I can't be sure yet in my experience. It sort of felt like the emotion was just there and was noticed because thought wasn't spinning up some story to distract from it.
Is there a Nicky feeling happy?
No there is just happiness
Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?
The experience changed quite quickly. I believe thinking kicked back in trying to understand.
How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?
No it just automatically moved on like the weather. I had a sense of energy flowing through.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:36 am

Hi Nicky,
Are you differentiating feelings and emotions?
Not really. Both feeling and emotions are nothing else than sensations. Can you see this?
I attempted to let go of my beliefs
I’m glad that you are open to questions your beliefs. This attitude will help a lot.

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience?
That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate raw experience?

And can you see that the me-thought is not different for any other ideas/concepts? That the me-thought is also just an added extra (by thoughts) overlaying (on top of) the immediate experience?

That the ‘me’ is just a thought narration? Nothing more?

Is there any doubt that it might be otherwise?


It’s very important that not just understand this intellectually, but actually investigate it in experience to really SEE it.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:40 pm

Hi Vivien,
Not really. Both feeling and emotions are nothing else than sensations. Can you see this?
Yes, I can see this.
Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience?
That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate raw experience?
Yes, I have seen that there is experience and then thought comes in interpreting, telling a story.
And can you see that the me-thought is not different for any other ideas/concepts? That the me-thought is also just an added extra (by thoughts) overlaying (on top of) the immediate experience?

That the ‘me’ is just a thought narration? Nothing more?

Is there any doubt that it might be otherwise?
I do know this intellectually but I can't honestly say that I have had a direct experience of this yet. I'd love to properly experience this. I'll keep inquiring. Don't suppose you have pointers to assist this specific experience?

Thank you
Nicky

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:43 am

Hi Nicky,
I do know this intellectually but I can't honestly say that I have had a direct experience of this yet. I'd love to properly experience this. I'll keep inquiring. Don't suppose you have pointers to assist this specific experience?
This is the whole point of our investigation. We will look at the self from every possible angle, but for now we are focusing on thoughts. We are doing this in a step-by-step manner. So we will get there :)

So here is another exercise for you. Please repeat this many times before replying.
Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a flower.

How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
How do you make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?

If not, how does that particular flower appear from all the possible flowers that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?

Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the flower to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and shape? Is the size and shape your doing?

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:24 am

Hi Vivien,
How does the visual thought of a flower arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a flower to appear?
How do you make that happen?
It seems that the image just appears randomly without my doing. It is nothing to do with me which image appears.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of flowers are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
Monitor doesn't feel like that at all. Rather it feels like random flower images thoughts just flow in to awareness and then leave.
If not, how does that particular flower appear from all the possible flowers that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?
I do nothing to make this happen. It just happens. At first the image of an orchid on my windowsill appeared. Soon to be replaced with a random orange gerbra, nothing to do with me, that is clear.
Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the flower to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?
This is totally nothing to do with me. Colour just appear and then are replaced.
And what about its size and shape? Is the size and shape your doing?
No it was fascinating watching the different images ebb and flow.
Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a flower?
No it is like a stream of thought is happening independent of a mind or a self creating them.

Thanks
Nicky

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 7049
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:45 am

Hi Nicky,
No it is like a stream of thought is happening independent of a mind or a self creating them.
Let’s look into the notion of the mind again.

Today you will have only one thing to look for, and that is the mind.

Please spend lots of time repeatedly today on searching for the mind. If there is a mind, it should be easy to find.

So where is the mind? Where is its exact location?

Make sure that you don't get to the conclusion that there is no mind by thinking about it, or by speculating, but actually SEEING if there is an experience of a mind or not.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest