Curiously Exploring

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GeordieGirl
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Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:19 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
A guide who has already seen through the illusion of self will guide me to look for the truth myself.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help to take that step from an intellectual understanding to a true seeing of the illusion of self. Also accountability to stop reading, watching YouTube etc and sit down to truly look for myself. Possibly to overcome some fears that is stopping the truth being seen.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm expecting an email conversation where the guide, who already has seen the truth, will ask me questions allowing me to go off and really look for myself for the truth behind there is no self. I've never found a self but I believe I am still accepting the thoughts about a self to be true so help seeing through this. I expect accountability too.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
For a number of years I have explored various practices such as non duality, direct path. I've gone to Rupert Spira residential retreats. Watched hundreds of hours of YouTube, read endless books. I've done Dr Jeffery Martin's Finders course which I've just finished. We explored many different meditation and other practices. I'm just also finishing a training to be a mindfulness teacher with a Buddhist monk. Seeking has become the main focus of my life it seems.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:28 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
What is incomplete right now?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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GeordieGirl
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Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:51 pm

Hi Vivien,

I was really excited this morning to receive your message. I'm grateful that you are willing to give up your time to guide me. My answers are below;

Can we agree on these?
Yes

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
When I first started exploring I wanted to recreate experiences I'd had spontaneously in the past. I now understand that they were peak experiences and not what this is about. Now I have a strong desire for truth. I believe there would be less fear and a greater appreciation of life as it is.

What are you hoping for?
To move from an intellectual understanding of no seperate self to a daily lived experience of this as the truth of life.

What do you want to happen?
I feel if I really see through the seperate self then any fear or resistance felt would not get in the way of me being fully engaged in life. A small example, I have a fear of public speaking. I may be wrong, but I think if I truly saw the false nature of the self, this fear would still be felt but action would happen despite this.

What is incomplete right now?
I was initially going to say that everything is as it should be but I think that sounds like just a really good idea. The seperate self is still saying I need more financial security in my business, my body needs to be thinner and healthier, I need to have an awakening- all seperate self stuff but feeling real at times. It feels like completeness will come when the seperate self is seen through but if the seperate self doesn't exist then completeness is here already just not noticed. This is where i get in a tangle.

Is this enough detail for you? If I'm off track with how I'm responding please let me know.

Many thanks
Nicky

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 am

Hi Nicky,
I was really excited this morning to receive your message. I'm grateful that you are willing to give up your time to guide me.
You are welcome.

I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.

So here is the link to a video again how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660
When I first started exploring I wanted to recreate experiences I'd had spontaneously in the past. I now understand that they were peak experiences and not what this is about.
Yes, and this is important.
Seeing through the self is not state.
It’s just the experiential recognition of this fact.
Now I have a strong desire for truth. I believe there would be less fear and a greater appreciation of life as it is.
Fear might lessen or might not. This cannot be known in advance.
I feel if I really see through the seperate self then any fear or resistance felt would not get in the way of me being fully engaged in life.
Just because the self has seen through, it doesn’t mean that resistance to things will stop. Since resisting things are a learned condition, which can be investigated later, after seeing through the self.

The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
A small example, I have a fear of public speaking. I may be wrong, but I think if I truly saw the false nature of the self, this fear would still be felt but action would happen despite this.
This might or might not be the case. Fear of public speaking is more than just believing in the self, it could be the result of childhood traumas, emotional problems, etc., and these don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.

Is there any resistance to any of it?
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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GeordieGirl
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Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:36 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for letting me know about the quotation link.
Can we agree on these?
Yes, I've been consuming lots of other people's stuff and at the end of last year had the insight this needs to be experiential but I need guidance to do that.
Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
It makes total sense what you say about conditioning and old patterns etc having to unravel. I think although I said I realised it wasn't about peak experiences my mind is still hanging on to the hope that seeing through the seperate self will lead to a more comfortable life. It's just downgraded it's expectations rather that get rid of all expectations. I am curious how I would know when the seperate sense is seen through if conditioning is still playing out
Is there any resistance to any of it?
I can see what you say makes absolute sense. I do feel a bit disappointed that seeing through the seperate self won't necessarily ease fears etc.
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
Yes, absolutely. Thanks

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:34 am

Hi Nicky,
I think although I said I realised it wasn't about peak experiences my mind is still hanging on to the hope that seeing through the seperate self will lead to a more comfortable life. It's just downgraded it's expectations rather that get rid of all expectations.
Seeing through the self-illusion is just the beginning not the end. It’s just the first step. However, after seeing through the illusion, working with fears or any emotional issues are usually a bit easier.
I am curious how I would know when the seperate sense is seen through if conditioning is still playing out
By actually SEEING experientially that the self is just an illusion, it’s just imagined to be there, but it’s not actually there.
Seeing through the self doesn’t depend on the presence or the lack of conditionings.

It’s the experiential RECOGNITION that there has never been a self.
I do feel a bit disappointed that seeing through the seperate self won't necessarily ease fears etc.
It’s all right to be disappointed, this process is quite sobering :)
Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism.

So let’s start it. We are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:14 pm

Hi Vivien,

I've sat a few times today watching thoughts come and go. To begin with it seemed that by focusing on thoughts they seemed to slow down but then they started again.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
No, the thoughts appear but I don't know where they came from.
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination
?
No, the thoughts disappear or fade away I don't know where they go to.
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
No in my actual experience thoughts appear and disappear. I can't tell from where or why certain thoughts appear. I also can't predict how long a thought will last or where it goes to. In my experience I'd say it is a spontaneous process. I also tried the process while swimming earlier and it felt like the thoughts were being triggered by stimulus around me, sights and sounds etc but again I couldn't predict what thought would be triggered by the stimulus. I may even be using my imagination or speculation to say stimulus was triggering those thoughts.

Thanks
Nicky

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:37 am

Hi Nicky,

You did a nice looking :)
I may even be using my imagination or speculation to say stimulus was triggering those thoughts.
Yes, exactly. It’s great that you can see this.

Try an experiment.
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
What is making thoughts to appear?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:35 pm

Hi Vivien,
Try an experiment.
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
My mind goes blank then thoughts like 'what shall I create a though about?' appear. It doesn't seem that i can will a thought from scratch.
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes, I experience a flow of thoughts appearing and then eventually passing.
What is making thoughts to appear?
In my actual experience I cannot tell how, why or where thoughts appear from. They just enter my awareness.
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
It's not possible for me. To try to prevent a specific thought it has to be in my mind to think about not having it. If you mean prevent any random thought again, thoughts just seem to appear when they want to despite any effort I make.

Thanks
Nicky

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:03 am

Hi Nicky,
To try to prevent a specific thought it has to be in my mind to think about not having it.
You are talking as if there were such thing as a ‘mind’. But is this so? Let’s find out.

Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder and the origin of thoughts?
Can you find it in experience?

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:59 pm

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your questions.
Where is the exact location of this ‘mind’ which is supposed to be the placeholder and the origin of thoughts?
I can't find a location for a mind. I don't think that mind is the origin of thought but still in my experience it does seem that thoughts seem to come into awareness around my head which I guess is another belief or concept I haven't seen through.

Can you find it in experience?
No, I can't find a mind in my actual experience. Thoughts are there but I've no idea how they are experienced.
Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts?
In my experience there is no entity of mind that thinks thoughts. There are just thoughts arising and fading.
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?
No I can't point to a mind. I can't find one. I feel some confusion or resistance because it feels like there is narrative and thoughts which seem to be experienced in my head. I don't believe there is an actual thing called mind but I'm confused by this seemingly central point of thoughts. Sorry if I'm not looking properly today!

Thank you
Nicky

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:31 am

Hi Nicky,
Sorry if I'm not looking properly today!
You are doing very well Nicky, don’t worry :)
I feel some confusion or resistance because it feels like there is narrative and thoughts which seem to be experienced in my head.
This is what we usually believe… that thoughts are in the head, or are experience in the head.
But let’s test this assumption.

Please sit for a while, close your eyes, and just observer thoughts coming and going.

Can you actually (literally) see or observe that thoughts are appearing IN the head?
What is it that is suggesting this?

HOW do you know exactly that thoughts are experienced INSIDE the head?
Where does this information coming from?

Try to locate the exact spot where thoughts are experienced inside the head.
Where is this location exactly?


Please look at these questions repeatedly many times during the day before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:45 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you actually (literally) see or observe that thoughts are appearing IN the head?
No in my experience I can't.
What is it that is suggesting this?
There must be a conditioned belief that a thinker of thoughts lives in the head. Made stronger by the eyes and ears being there.
HOW do you know exactly that thoughts are experienced INSIDE the head? Where does this information coming from?
In my experience, sitting with my eyes closed without referring to memory or beliefs, I can't even truly know there is a head there that thoughts could be inside. I can't know for sure that thoughts are experienced inside the head.
Try to locate the exact spot where thoughts are experienced inside the head.
Where is this location exactly?
I couldn't locate an exact spot in my experience. Sometimes I saw visual images then sensations came into awareness and then random thoughts. There is a long held belief that this is experienced in my head but I can't in my actual experience prove it.

Thank you
Nicky

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby Vivien » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:43 am

Hi Nicky,
In my experience, sitting with my eyes closed without referring to memory or beliefs, I can't even truly know there is a head there that thoughts could be inside. I can't know for sure that thoughts are experienced inside the head.
Yes, exactly, nice looking.
There is a long held belief that this is experienced in my head but I can't in my actual experience prove it.
Yes. So what we are doing here is to compare the everyday beliefs about things with realty, how things actually are.

So, is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?


Please look carefully repeatedly throughout the day before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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GeordieGirl
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 am

Re: Curiously Exploring

Postby GeordieGirl » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:46 pm

Hi Vivien,
So, is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
In my experience I cannot find a mind. I think the concept of mind must be a thought.
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from a ‘mind’?
I suppose I've felt that mind is like a container that thought passes through, like a holder of thought. But in my experience there is no such thing. It's a belief I can't prove in my experience.

Thank you
Nicky


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