Woodland Flowers

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:00 am

How are you doing,Rob?
xx

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aconite7
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby aconite7 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:48 am

Hi, sorry. Too many projects in lockdown.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
The commentary isn't necessary for the play obviously, but for the watcher to get excited about it, take it seriously, it helps a lot. It's pretty meaningless without someone telling you how to think, or when to get excited.
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
I see the negative effects of the inner commentator all the time in myself and my clients. But as I think about it now the detrimental effects of even the positive excited voice are clearer too. If I step back from the whole charade then yes, it's just a whole load of generated meaning out of nothing. I feel a lot calmer when I step back from the commentary.

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:27 pm

Hi
If I step back from the whole charade then yes, it's just a whole load of generated meaning out of nothing
yes, well seen
A much shorter one now:
Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?
xx

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aconite7
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby aconite7 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:02 am

Although intellectually I can't I still assume that these body sensations and other sense perceptions are from an inherent self. That's the habit that's hard to break. As I scan through my experiences with mindfulness it starts to break down now. After insight meditations its easier to see through, but right now I interpret my experience as an inherent self. But then as I say it the feeling of spaciousness returns.. hmmm

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:57 am

Watch ot for assumptions and expectations, Rob
What I'm after here is what you find in direct experience, nothing added.

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour. Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them. And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts
xx

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aconite7
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby aconite7 » Fri May 01, 2020 9:47 am

Yes. direct experience. It's easy to slip into performance mode.

I can't find a conductor. The thought streams that seem to be "me" are multiple, yet there feels like a central momentum. Wanting this or that, thinking I should do this or that, etc, I feel identified with those desires and aversions, like I am goign to lose or gain. There is a very strong pull to do something useful with my life, or meet the demands of the job, or make sure I live a meaningful life. I guess I believe "I" have do it, an effortful push toward what I want.

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Fri May 01, 2020 1:01 pm

Ok, so you can't find a "Controller" but there is somehow a belief in an "I" - what is that? where is that? Can it be found?xx

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aconite7
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby aconite7 » Sun May 03, 2020 6:19 pm

So I come first to my felt sense. There are sensations when I notice me sitting on the chair. The hedge looks like its outside the window from where I sit. This perceiving locus of control seems to be something I would call "I"I feel a bi tired, sleepy. I'm thinking about cooking dinner. There is slight sense of hunger. It seems that at the centre of all these experiences there is a self with eyes to see and ears to hear.
When I try and perceive if I can feel anything behind these eyes, I can't actually sense anything. Nothing seems to be linked to the inside of my ear. When I close my eyes things get more uncertain. I notice I am interpreting sensations to be me but these assumptions don't seem to have any proof. When I get some stress I feel more like a me. I am suffering, But as it eases it doens't seem so clear. These are my current observations.
Many thanks, Rob

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Sun May 03, 2020 6:44 pm

So it's more that there's a sense of a "Perceiver"?

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aconite7
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby aconite7 » Sun May 03, 2020 6:56 pm

A perceiver. Yes. Something seems to be conscious of perceptions.

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Sun May 03, 2020 7:25 pm

Look to see if it can be found

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aconite7
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby aconite7 » Wed May 06, 2020 8:29 am

I must admit this experience of a separate self is very tenuous. It feels very light quite like a cloud or a soft sheet. When I try to approach it it just evaporates. But then it reconstitutes behind me. At times like this I'm not so identified with it. It's just a tool to navigate manifested reality. At other times I contract in fear and anxiety or anger because my self concept is threatened. this sense of a separate self is very conditional depending on how I am feeling and what's going on

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Wed May 06, 2020 9:00 am

Hi Rob
I must admit this experience of a separate self is very tenuous. It feels very light quite like a cloud or a soft sheet. When I try to approach it it just evaporates.
lovely! How is it to find that?
It's just a tool to navigate manifested reality.
yes, well spotted!
At other times I contract in fear and anxiety or anger because my self concept is threatened
that will tend to happen for a time - habits are hard to break (as we know!)

xx

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aconite7
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby aconite7 » Sun May 10, 2020 11:20 am

Hi PB,

Thanks for the question. I feel a lot of ease when I'm feeling more spacious.

I was wondering what you see the purpose of LU to be? It seems to me that its purpose is to help see no-self. This is something I have seen before. Do you think LU can help dig deeper, in a better way than meditation? My experience is that, if I can maintain an awareness of no separate self, working with the relative sense of self is useful. I see people get fixated on eradicating any remnant of what they are perceiving as a separate self, but causing pain and dullness by thinking a relative sense of self is bad. It's almost like all emotion is seen as bad and it seems to me it becomes just another form of resistance. Is this a pitfall you see sometimes?

Thanks a lot, Rob

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Seamist
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Re: Woodland Flowers

Postby Seamist » Sun May 10, 2020 11:44 am

Hi Rob
Yes I agree, LU is about seeing no-self, using a different method to meditation.
Do you think you've got that?
Xx


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