Let’s get this over with

[Daveop]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I don’t know. I’m not clear on what it means because everybody says something different about it. I understand intellectually that the body moves on its own and depends on conditions. But “I am awareness/-being-bliss” and “The ‘I am’ rises from the Heart” sounds like gibberish to me. If I see it, this will sound true or false.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to know the truth before I die of a medical condition, while I still have the chance. If what the Buddhists say is true about endless rebirths, I want to stop the cycle on this trip because it may be eons of suffering before I run across the no-self notion again and have the brains and the time and the opportunity to look into it. I’m not as smart as I used to be, memory is failing, so please be patient with me because it may take longer for me to put things together.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
From the guides, I don’t know. Consistent contact, rephrase a question if I dont get it, call me out if you’re not completely satisfied with an answer. I’d like to thank you for offering your time to help people. And for being patient.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve spent about ten years on the meditation circuit, read just about everyone ancient and new. I’ve read a lot of this site over and over. I get Kay the most.

Sometimes I think I see insights but they never coalesce into a whole coherent understanding. It’s like seeing 3 random playing cards for the first time and from that, trying to figure out the rules of poker.

I can see how maybe the world is illusion/dream, but not enough to stake my life on. I still think I’m in a body because I feel pain, in the same places repeatedly, and because I see the lower half of this body over and over, whereas I don’t particularly revisit dream bodies over and over that I know of. I’m a materialism skeptic but skepticism proves nothing in the end. If there’s doubt, it means I haven’t seen no-self. I cannot give the big fat YES mentioned here.

But again, I’m not really sure what it means to see no-self because I don’t even know what a self is to begin with. It’s “me” - I guess I think of me as whatever it is that experiences. But if I look for what experiences I just see experience. Okay, this is the big nondual insight, except that there is no insight, no belief changes, no penny drops. I don’t understand myself as the world, or the background to a world, or the source of a world, I see a world. I watch images come and go in space as I meditate, I get that it’s happening in a steady “screen” of consciousness, but does that really mean the screen is the only real thing in the long run? And it’s supposed to be “me?” I could just be imagining all of my conclusions about reality. There’s nothing reliable. Please help.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[forgetmenot]

Hello Daveop,

Another guide brought my attention to your thread, as you had mentioned that you get my style of guiding the most. I hung up my guiding hat some time back but am quite happy to point the way for you, in order for you to see through the idea of the separate self as it is thought to be.

Sometimes I think I see insights but they never coalesce into a whole coherent understanding. It’s like seeing 3 random playing cards for the first time and from that, trying to figure out the rules of poker.

Even when the realisation of 'no self' has happened, there will be periods of time when doubt and confusion will arise, as this is part 'n' parcel of the undoing. It can take several months, and longer, before the realisation settles down, and with that, doubt and confusion settle down as well. Having said though, what has been seen cannot be unseen.

My style of guiding is to deconstruct the idea of the separate self, it is an unlearning, an undoing and the best course of action is to put aside everything you think you know and just be with this exploration with and openness and a willingness to LOOK. By applying the exercises and questions given throughout this exploration in your daily life...not just sitting and pondering what we are exploring, but actually applying the ideas to your life; see them in action…actually do the work (practical application) every day, day in and day out, you will then be able to LOOK and see that even though the separate self seems to appear over and over...that it actually cannot be found. It is this continual seeing that is the key. Eventually it won't matter that the idea of a separate self still appears...there is simply a knowing that it is a concept. This exploration is not about getting rid of the separate self or getting rid of anything, but seeing that there was never a separate limited self to start with.

If you are happy with me being your guide, would you be so kind as to read the disclaimer, the terms and conditions and what LU is NOT (links provided below). Also, as you would have noticed we use the quote function to keep the thread easy to follow and read, so I would appreciate it if you would watch the Youtube clip (link provided below) on how to use the quote function.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Throughout this exploration, I will put the questions I would like answered in blue text, that way there won't be any confusion around that. And I would really appreciate most all questions to be answered individually and not all lumped together. There is a method to my madness ;) (smiling)

Kind regards
Kay

PS...How would you like me to address you? Dave, Daveop or?

[forgetmenot]

Hi again! :)

I wanted to respond to this bit in your introduction as well and forgot to do so!

I can see how maybe the world is illusion/dream, but not enough to stake my life on. I still think I’m in a body because I feel pain, in the same places repeatedly, and because I see the lower half of this body over and over,

The pain in your body is not going to disappear when seeing through the seeming separate self. There has never been a separate self and yet sensations labelled as 'pain' have always appeared. So, again, it is not about getting rid of something, including the body, but exploring them in order to change your perception about them by seeing what 'pain' and the body actually are, as opposed to what thought says they are.

Hugs,
Kay

[Daveop]

Hello Kay,

Another guide brought my attention to your thread, as you had mentioned that you get my style of guiding the most. I hung up my guiding hat some time back but am quite happy to point the way for you, in order for you to see through the idea of the separate self as it is thought to be.

I didn't know I would be dragging you out of retirement for this! Thank you for pitching in again. I really appreciate it. I'll try not to drive you away again!

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Yes, I have read the disclaimer and the other links.

I will put aside the things I think I know and look in a fresh practical way. I don't know any answers really, or else why would I be here?

The pain in your body is not going to disappear when seeing through the seeming separate self.

Yes, I am not expecting magic here. :) The pain is going to be there regardless. I was trying to say I really identify it as MY body with MY pain (or at least, there is intrusive pain that is inflicted upon MY body). I'm not looking to go into denial about it either, like "I'm (not) here and the pain is over there" disassociation. I just want to understand the whole idea of "You are not your body," or whatever the truth is. I hope to see it as an experience and not an idea. I can see how I'm bringing in my previous seeker book reading here, so forget it, but you get the idea.

I've seen a couple of threads where you dig deep into the body idea, leaving no stone unturned when the people seem confused, and I'm all for that. So thank you again for guiding again this once. I'll try not to let you down.

I will check this thread everyday but may not be able to reply in-depth everyday. I will be here. (but not really here?)

Yes, Dave is ok.

Thanks again,
Dave

[forgetmenot]

Hey Dave,

I didn't know I would be dragging you out of retirement for this! Thank you for pitching in again. I really appreciate it. I'll try not to drive you away again!

You are welcome and you certainly didn’t drag me out of retirement lol! If I can be of assistance to someone who asks, then I am very happy to do so.

I've seen a couple of threads where you dig deep into the body idea, leaving no stone unturned when the people seem confused, and I'm all for that. So thank you again for guiding again this once. I'll try not to let you down.

All I ask is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently…not for my sake but for your own – for you to be 100% committed to yourself in order to see through the idea of being the separate self. It is through this diligent LOOKING that answers arise and realisations happen. On the flip side, being gently with one self is also good. Many years of thinking one is a limited separate entity with ingrained beliefs and conditioning isn’t go to disappear overnight. So being gentle with yourself is having compassion for yourself.

We will have a comprehensive look at the body later. I guide to a structure which I have found works with all this undoing/unlearning and we first start with learning what LOOKING is and how to do it.

I will check this thread everyday but may not be able to reply in-depth everyday. I will be here. (but not really here?)

Yes, check every day, that will be good. Reply when you can. All I ask that if you are unable to reply to your thread for 3 or more days, that you drop me a note letting me know. This tells me you are continuing with the thread and not just dropping away never to be heard from again.

Okay, I am going to continue with the generic housekeeping guidelines that I give everyone…that way you know some of my expectations. :) And thank you for confirming that you read the links including the disclaimer.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Unless exercises given need several days to be accomplished; post at least every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. If you wish to post every day, that too is okay!

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc. Could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Just a reminder that throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I are in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Love, Kay

[Daveop]

Hi Kay,

You are welcome and you certainly didn’t drag me out of retirement lol! If I can be of assistance to someone who asks, then I am very happy to do so.

That's good to hear!

All I ask is that you LOOK every day and LOOK diligently - not for my sake but for your own - for you to be 100% committed to yourself in order to see through the idea of being the separate self.

I will LOOK at AE everyday and go through your regular wringer!

I do have a daily meditation practice that I'm grateful to keep adhering to.

Thinking about your questions for a while managed to unearth most of my expectations and sort out the silly nonsense, I think. Of course, most of this stuff comes from reading other people talking about it:

How will life change?

The world will look the same. Maybe life will seem easier, effortless, fresh and shiny - I don't think that will be the world changing, but my outlook.

How will you change?

I won't be Dave anymore, right? Whatever that looks like - I have no idea. But I expect Dave to be less stressed about ego-driven drama because the knowledge registers in the body, somebody or other said. I know the ego isn't supposed to disappear (but one can hope!).

I'll be "one with everything" because I'm not a separate being. I'm not sure what that means - if it means I'll be the same thing as that house and tree, or if it's about the subject-object split in seeing, or both.

What will be different?

If there's no center-in-the-body idea, maybe I'll feel like I'm floating through life. Or I've read that I stand still and life moves through me.

Something something about other people. I'll think they aren't other people but more of me? Stop believing they have minds? See my same consciousness looking out through their eyes, like the light of a great lamp with many holes? No consciousness looking out through anybody's eyes, because everybody's appearance is just made of consciousness-stuff? Anyway, other people will supposedly be different somehow.

What is missing?

I have a missing understanding of some things people talk about. If I see no-self I will know the answers. Not all of them of course, but I'll be able to answer your final questions.

Kay, you said you're going to post an explanation of looking at AE next. Can you say a few words about why we should trust AE? If it appears in the same place as thought, could it not just be another form of thought? I've read a lot about deconstructing the world illusion and it may have screwed me up for tackling these exercises.

I am ready to LOOK.

- Dave

[forgetmenot]

Hello Dave,

It sounds as if you are already feeling apprehensive about this exploration and not ‘getting it’ and are putting up your own obstacles. We will look at what anxiety and fear actually are, but we need to be clear about what actual experience (AE) is and we will get to that. Unfortunately you have amassed a lot of spiritual knowledge and this will be more of a hindrance than a benefit, that is why I am asking you to put aside everything you think you know and just be here with an open mind and a willingness to LOOK.

Knowing ABOUT something is called knowledge and is thought based. Knowing what actually IS, is experienced directly and is your actual experience. Nothing is known as in knowledge – only thought says something is known because thought seemingly knows it. What is direct/actual is known because it is what actually IS. Shifting from thinking to looking will become frustrating because it takes practice. Consistent daily practice. Thoughts are not the tool used for this inquiry as this is about noticing what can be found in your immediate [actual] experience, noticing what's going on here now and describing what can be found.

So the purpose of these questions were for you and I to become aware of any expectations. Expectations are thoughts about how things can be in an imagined future. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this guiding. Also be aware that when desired outcomes to expectations are not met, then fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration etc can arise. These reactions/emotions will arise during our exploration as we investigate and question beliefs that seem to point to the idea of there being an “I” - this is par for course. When they do appear, please let me know so that we can look at them together.

How will life change?

The world will look the same. Maybe life will seem easier, effortless, fresh and shiny - I don't think that will be the world changing, but my outlook.

There has never been a separate independent self and life has been the way life is. So no, life isn’t going to change. And yes, it is your perception of what life actually is that changes. And this isn’t going to happen overnight. It will be an ongoing process even after realisation of ‘no self’ has happened.

How will you change?

I won't be Dave anymore, right? Whatever that looks like - I have no idea. But I expect Dave to be less stressed about ego-driven drama because the knowledge registers in the body, somebody or other said. I know the ego isn't supposed to disappear (but one can hope!).

The ego is just a thought system; it is not an entity that needs to be vilified and therefore gotten rid of. Dave will not disappear! You are not going to become an ethereal being that is saintly and has no feelings, emotions, desires or preferences and somehow just float through life! There has never been a separate independent self, so why would the idea of Dave disappear? The difference is that there is a knowing that you are not the limited, finite self that supposedly resides in a body, who is trying to navigate and survive life, and who then dies…but you will still be answering to the name Dave and you will still need to eat, sleep, brush your teeth and so on!

I'll be "one with everything" because I'm not a separate being. I'm not sure what that means - if it means I'll be the same thing as that house and tree, or if it's about the subject-object split in seeing, or both.

I am glad to hear you don’t know what this means, as all of this stuff is what is going to hinder out exploration. Put it aside and just be willing to LOOK when asked. And no, I didn’t become one with a house, flea or dust particle either!

What will be different?

If there's no center-in-the-body idea, maybe I'll feel like I'm floating through life. Or I've read that I stand still and life moves through me.

Do you feel that life is moving through you now? If not, why not? There is no ‘you’ as you perceive yourself to be there now, reading this, and do you feel like life is moving through you? I think not. So more spiritual stuff to put aside.

Something something about other people. I'll think they aren't other people but more of me? Stop believing they have minds? See my same consciousness looking out through their eyes, like the light of a great lamp with many holes? No consciousness looking out through anybody's eyes, because everybody's appearance is just made of consciousness-stuff? Anyway, other people will supposedly be different somehow.

None of what you have written is actually about your own expectations. Your own desires and secret wishes to what will happen when you realise that the separate self you thought yourself to be is an illusion. It is these desires, expectations and secret wishes that I wanted to know about, because it is these that you will have at the back of your mind as some sort of experience to attain in order for you to know that you have reached your goal. This is what I want to know about. There are no goal posts. Realising that there is no separate self is only the beginning and not an ending. Yes, the core belief will be seen through but there will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, as not everything gets rewritten in one go. It is a process of continual unravelling.

So I would like for you to look at your own expectations, desires aka secret wishes of what you want to happen when realisation happens. Knowing your expectations is important...because they will become obstacles and we need to know of them.

What will be different?
How will life look?
How will life feel?
What is missing?

Kay, you said you're going to post an explanation of looking at AE next. Can you say a few words about why we should trust AE? If it appears in the same place as thought, could it not just be another form of thought? I've read a lot about deconstructing the world illusion and it may have screwed me up for tackling these exercises.

I won’t give an explanation, it is something for you to experience for yourself and this is what this exploration is about. It is about you experiencing first hand what is being pointed at, rather reading my explanations. If listening to what others say or reading books on what others have experienced were all it took...then you wouldn't need to be here. That is why we are called guides and not teachers. We guide by pointing to what you need to LOOK at in order for you to find your own answers, and have your own insights and experiences. Once we have addressed YOUR expectations, then we will begin to look at what AE is and how to LOOK.

So, after reading my post, on a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to put aside everything you think you know and to be here with an open mind and a willingness to LOOK; and to question any currently held beliefs about the seeming separate self?

Hugs,
Kay

[Daveop]

So, after reading my post, on a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to put aside everything you think you know and to be here with an open mind and a willingness to LOOK; and to question any currently held beliefs about the seeming separate self?

Kay, I'm dying. 10 isn't high enough. A million? A billion trillion?

Your own desires and secret wishes to what will happen when you realise that the separate self you thought yourself to be is an illusion. It is these desires, expectations and secret wishes that I wanted to know about, because it is these that you will have at the back of your mind as some sort of experience to attain in order for you to know that you have reached your goal. This is what I want to know about.

The thing you want to know about isn't on your list of questions. For me the expectation is about what will happen AFTER life. I picture dying, blanking out, darkness, the growing glowing light, whatever happens. Then seeing another lifetime start. A womb, the birth canal, or maybe jumping right into being a kid toddling around in the mud in some godforsaken third world country. Which means I didn't finish, didn't awaken and break the cycle of rebirth. Which means I will live through how many billions more lifetimes of suffering. I've gotten well-acquainted with suffering in the past few years, and the experience is not something I care to ever repeat. And I know I'm one of the lucky ones. I have food, I have shelter, I have loved ones and I'm well taken care of. Who knows how much worse my situation will be next time.

My goal is to not see that lifetime start.

So there is no way to know if I've reached this goal until it happens - and by then it will be too late to change. Every single moment I have available until that moment I will work to make sure I reach my goal. I'm going to make good use of all the time here I have.

If I reach the goal of no further lives I likely won't even know it. And if all of this is bunk I won't know it either. But at least I will have tried. And if there is some other God and this was the wrong path, at least He/It may have pity that I tried to find the truth.

I know that seeing no-self is supposed to only be the first step. But maybe it will cut me down to 7 lifetimes left of suffering, instead of 7 billion.

Yeah, I know. Nice story. I can only deal with what is in front of me now. Which is this.

So I would like for you to look at your own expectations, desires aka secret wishes of what you want to happen when realisation happens. Knowing your expectations is important...because they will become obstacles and we need to know of them.

My answers in the previous post ARE my expectations of the process of seeing no self. As far as I know I am describing the very definition of what happens and it may or may not be wrong. These are the most reasonable sounding signposts of "progress" toward my goal I've heard and chosen to believe in. I'm not expecting fireworks - I wasted years of meditation chasing useless phantom fireworks.

What will be different?

There will be a perspective shift of some sort. I will see something that cannot be unseen. I will know for sure no self exists.

How will life look?

Other people will seem different somehow. The truth will seem clearer somehow (I really can't prejudge the details of this).

How will life feel?

Flowing and effortless. I will feel "one with everything," not like a separate individual.

Here's a new thought that may be more what you're looking for: because of feeling one/connected with everything, I will feel more love towards the people close to me, and they will sense that. Something like this already happens from after sitting anyway, so I must be thinking it will become a constant state. Yes, I know ... no such thing as a constant state, so it's a false expectation. I already show what love I can.

What is missing?

Knowing for sure that I am not a separate self. I will be able to answer my own spiritual questions (you can tell I've collected a lot).

Unfortunately you have amassed a lot of spiritual knowledge and this will be more of a hindrance than a benefit, that is why I am asking you to put aside everything you think you know and just be here with an open mind and a willingness to LOOK.

Yes, I am aware the knowledge is a hindrance and I will LOOK without it to see what actually IS and describe what can be found and nothing else, no theory, no interpretations. I will put all expectations and spiritual stuff aside.

I actually don't care what the imaginary reward is. I just want to do this.

- Dave

[forgetmenot]

Hello Dave,

Thank you for your frank and open responses. Please don’t think that I am being cold because I have not touched on your dying. It’s not because I don’t feel any compassion, it is just that this is your journey to realising there is no separate self that is limited or can die; therefore this guiding needs to be on point, and I would be doing you no favours if I didn’t stay on point. False empathy is a form of empathy that society sees as being sympathetic and compassionate - it’s about trying to walk in someone else’s shoes and feel how they would feel etc. False empathy is counter productive because it only confirms beliefs and fears about being a limited self that is suffering and is subject to the laws of time and space. True empathy holds you in the place of truth, that what you truly are is not subject to any laws or anything that seemingly happens in the dream called life…that what you are is timeless and never ending.

How will life feel?

Flowing and effortless. I will feel "one with everything," not like a separate individual.

Experiences such as these may or may not happen…but they are simply experiences that come and go. What you ARE never comes and goes and never changes. This exploration will only take you as far as seeing through the idea of being a limited independent self, any further insights, realisations and experiences are undertaken by other means as a way to realising what you really are, and what reality actually is.

If there is an expectation that by seeing through the illusory separate self that there will be an overnight feeling of being “one with everything” and that this is a benchmark that will inform you that you have had the realisation, then you may be disappointed. The realisation can be very subtle and not be of any extraordinary experience at all and does not come with fireworks, clanging bells or trumpeting angels. Being subtle it can be lost in expectations…so please be aware of this.

Here's a new thought that may be more what you're looking for: because of feeling one/connected with everything, I will feel more love towards the people close to me, and they will sense that. Something like this already happens from after sitting anyway, so I must be thinking it will become a constant state. Yes, I know ... no such thing as a constant state, so it's a false expectation. I already show what love I can.

Yes…paradoxically there are changes within that happen and the movement to being compassionate, kind and loving seems to be the way we go…but it is not an overnight happening. It, like most things on this journeyless journey take time and a gradual peeling of the onion to get to the core of what you truly ARE and there is no ‘me’ that is in control to how quickly this happens as there is no one that is controlling what unfolds.

Okay I think we are both apprised of expectations and we can move onto what actual experience (AE) is and learning how to LOOK.

The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now, ie colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The content of thought ie, what the thought is about is not actual experience. Thought either points to actual experience or it points to thoughts about actual experience ie thoughts about thoughts. This will become clearer as we look at AE through some exercises…starting with this one.

I would like you to sit somewhere quiet and become aware of sounds. Close your eyes and just listen to sounds for a few minutes, be they inside the room or outside. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

Love, Kay

[Daveop]

Hi Kay,

Thanks, I'm not looking for empathy. I prefer not to talk about it. The less we rile up the ego monkey mind, the better.

Being something larger and more permanent than a human sounds amazing. I understand it will be slow.

OK, let's do this!

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

I hear the central AC fan, which is always going. It's a constant woosh with some metallic rattles from the wall vent.

Thanks,
Dave

[forgetmenot]

Hi Dave,

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

I hear the central AC fan, which is always going. It's a constant woosh with some metallic rattles from the wall vent.

Great! So remembering that actual experience (AE) is simply colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought, I would like you to repeat the exercise and answering from actual experience (AE) only, tell me...


- What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing 'central AC fan''?
- How is it known that the sound is 'central AC fan', in other words what is it that says the sound is 'central AC fan'?
- What is the AE of " It's a constant woosh with some metallic rattles from the wall vent"?


Kay

[Daveop]

Hi Kay,

I hope you're having a good day. Let's see...

Great! So remembering that actual experience (AE) is simply colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought, I would like you to repeat the exercise and answering from actual experience (AE) only, tell me...

- What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing 'central AC fan''?

I'm not sure how to describe this, as it's indescribable. The sound that can be spoken of is not the actual sound? Haha.

Maybe ...ooo(tk)ooo(tkk)ooo…?

Or are you looking for "sound" (from the list)?

- How is it known that the sound is 'central AC fan', in other words what is it that says the sound is 'central AC fan'?

That's thought. It says AC is the most likely explanation for the oooo(tk) sound, with an imaginary picture of the system beyond the wall. AE of sound doesn't actually need an explanation, it's just already there.

- What is the AE of " It's a constant woosh with some metallic rattles from the wall vent"?

Well, it's not constant, as that imputes some sort of thought-past and thought-future to it, and all I can see for sure is now. So it's just an oooo(tk) sound.

It's not even technically a "sound", like there's no definite tag on it labeling this is a sound as opposed to a smell, for example. It's just something that's happening along with everything else, like one flavor in a soup. I have to stop and think through your list of colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thought and draw an imaginary line around it to decide it fits the sound category. It's awkward to sort out.

It doesn't have an origin of location like a wall vent or the central unit, it's sort of everywhere, going nowhere.

I hope that was the vagueness you were looking for!

[forgetmenot]

Hello Dave,

I hope that was the vagueness you were looking for!

I am not looking for vagueness, I am wanting you to tell me what your direct actual experience is. Actual experience is comprised of sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought. There is nothing vague about them…they are what they are and you are aware of them as those things.

- What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing 'central AC fan''?

I'm not sure how to describe this, as it's indescribable. The sound that can be spoken of is not the actual sound? Haha.

This is not a trick question. It is really a one word answer and doesn't need to be described. Descriptions are thoughts ABOUT actual experience. I am asking you what your direct actual experience is. It is either sound, taste, smell, sensation, colour or thought.

Or are you looking for "sound" (from the list)?

Yes…it is the AE of sound, what else would you call it? It isn’t the AE of smell, colour, taste or sensation…it is the AE of sound.

The label 'sound' is AE of thought, however thought either points to AE, or it points to thoughts about AE ie thoughts about thoughts...and thoughts about thoughts are nothing more than content of thought (thought stories). In other words, the content of thought is more thoughts and thought is empty of content. Thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience. Can you find an actual ‘fish’ in the word/thought/label ‘fish’? Can you find an actual “I” in the word/thought/label “I”?

- How is it known that the sound is 'central AC fan', in other words what is it that says the sound is 'central AC fan'?

That's thought. It says AC is the most likely explanation for the oooo(tk) sound, with an imaginary picture of the system beyond the wall. AE of sound doesn't actually need an explanation, it's just already there.

Yes…lovely. It is thought that points to AE and says it’s the sound coming from the central AC fan. Without thought that could not be known. Without thought all it is, is sound.

The label AC fan is AE of thought and not AE of AC fan
The sound labelled as AC fan is AE of sound and not AE of AC fan
The thoughts about AC fan are AE of thought and not AE of AC fan
So the AE of 'AC fan' (what is actually experienced) is AE of sound + thoughts/labels ABOUT the sound.
Can you see this?

What is the AE of " It's a constant woosh with some metallic rattles from the wall vent"?

Well, it's not constant, as that imputes some sort of thought-past and thought-future to it, and all I can see for sure is now. So it's just an oooo(tk) sound.

You didn’t answer the question. What is the AE of “It's a constant woosh with some metallic rattles from the wall vent"? Is that sentence/thought the AE of thought, sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation?

It's not even technically a "sound", like there's no definite tag on it labeling this is a sound as opposed to a smell, for example. It's just something that's happening along with everything else, like one flavor in a soup. I have to stop and think through your list of colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation, and thought and draw an imaginary line around it to decide it fits the sound category. It's awkward to sort out.

Actual experience is sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought. Now we need these labels in life, and we certainly need them to communicate in this thread. I am trying to get you to start to see what AE is and the thoughts that appear about AE. So we need the labels. Let's keep it grounded and not go into the ideas of ultimate reality.

It doesn't have an origin of location like a wall vent or the central unit, it's sort of everywhere, going nowhere.

Other than the actual experience (AE) of thought this sentence/thought has no relevance to what the AE is of the sound thought describes as 'central AC fan''. It is simply thoughts about thoughts. Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about AE ie thoughts about thoughts. If thoughts/words knew anything, you would be able to taste the word 'sweet', smell the word 'rose', and hear ‘thunder’ when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

Sending love,
Kay

[Daveop]

The label AC fan is AE of thought and not AE of AC fan
The sound labelled as AC fan is AE of sound and not AE of AC fan
The thoughts about AC fan are AE of thought and not AE of AC fan
So the AE of 'AC fan' (what is actually experienced) is AE of sound + thoughts/labels ABOUT the sound.
Can you see this?

Yes.

What is the AE of “It's a constant woosh with some metallic rattles from the wall vent"? Is that sentence/thought the AE of thought, sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation?

A sentence is thought.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Dave,

Okay...let's continue on with getting to see clearly what AE is and the thoughts about AE.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure is the actual experience of colour and the actual experience of thought

What about the content of thoughts - what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thoughts ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT (their content) can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking at actual experience - what you know for sure in your direct actual experience and is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay