crossing the Gateless Gate

[tantra]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
This is the crossing the Gateless Gate that I do not exist outside of life itself

What are you looking for at LU?
A way and method to cross the gateless gate as I understand there is no seperate self but I haven't had the direct experience or realization to show it clearly the absence of a separate self minus a couple experiences in meditation long time ago.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect honest feedback and occasional prodding to ensure truth and liberation is realized from the pointers provided. I am hoping for freedom to truly know and see and Be - where there is no sufferer.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Witness meditation
White tantra (sexual practices)

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Ilona]

Hi Tantra

Lovely to meet you and welcome to the forum.
Thank you for patience waiting for a guide.we can have a chat and see where it takes you.

Can you tell me what are you looking for precisely? What should be different? What are you hoping for?

Let’s start here and see how this unfolds.
With love.

[tantra]

I hoping too see clearly that "I" inside of myself doesn't exist and that ideally doesn't come back.

I understand emotions are just coming and going same with thoughts but my mind seems to have created early on a view that "this is my emotion" "this is my thought' and tries to protect this what i call "i" in the background. I look clearly after reading and see there is no "I" but doesn't feel substantial enough. In the sense the "I" quickly returns and claims the thoughts and emotions.

[Ilona]

When you were a kid, did you believe in Santa or some other magical creature? If so, do you remember what happened when you found out it wasn’t real?

When kid realises that Santa is fiction, can he believe that Santa is real again? Does Santa come back? Does he need to remember that Santa is not real? Or does it become obvious and impossible to go back to old belief?

So this I thingy, it too is fiction, just like Santa. It’s either you see it or you are trying to believe that it is not real. Then you have to remember and reaffirm that as an intellectual exercise.

So let’s find out once and for all, what is that I, that claims things to be mine?
What do you actually own?

If you look at the body, what is that says this is me, mine?
If you look at the sky, is that yours?
What is yours?
What is the that word me refers to in actuality?

Explore this and write to me what you see.

Love.

[tantra]

When you were a kid, did you believe in Santa or some other magical creature? If so, do you remember what happened when you found out it wasn’t real?

Yes I did but I don't quite remember "the time" when I stopped other than I just knew at some point while I was very young.

When kid realises that Santa is fiction, can he believe that Santa is real again? Does Santa come back? Does he need to remember that Santa is not real? Or does it become obvious and impossible to go back to old belief?

Yes impossible to go back.

So let’s find out once and for all, what is that I, that claims things to be mine?
What do you actually own?

My memories?

If you look at the body, what is that says this is me, mine?

Just thoughts and could have emotions towards it too but right now when I look just thought.

If you look at the sky, is that yours?

This gets pretty philosophical as I wouldn't claim it unless I was seeing from it at this moment I am not and only then it would be my thoughts after the fact or retrospectively.

What is yours?

Nothing or Everything

What is the that word me refers to in actuality?

a thought a concept of my small Life or Brahman or reality its interchangeable based on experience but I get its a false identity of "saying me" as when I witness that "is me" or when I feel like god "that is me" or when I feel like my person that is "me". So Me is basically an identifier for Ground so I don't fall into an Abyss so it seems due to fear of not being.

[Ilona]

Thank you.
Let’s look at fear of not being. Invite it closer, it is safe to look at it. It is here to protect, it is a friend.
Now look, is there ever when you are not? Can you stop being? By accident or at will? Can you stop being now just for a few second?
Are you always here, aware and present? Or is there a time when you are not?
That is not going to change. There is no such state as not being. Or is there? What is true in your experience?

Love

[tantra]

Let’s look at fear of not being. Invite it closer, it is safe to look at it. It is here to protect, it is a friend.

Now look, is there ever when you are not?

Experentially the only time noticed when I am "not" is when I am in deep deep sleep but this goes back to "what I am". In those moments there could be a dream body

Can you stop being?

Potential problem in semantics but I have never experienced "not being" other than void type meditation so my experience has always been "reality". However I have been warned about death and that creates a fear of not being.

By accident or at will?

Not that I know of but I am open to the possibility

Can you stop being now just for a few second?

No I feel like I always remain (but not sure "what that I" is or if its just a marker in the sense consciousness, life, reality.

Are you always here, aware and present? Or is there a time when you are not?

Awareness seems to always be here of some kind but but "me" i question and my relationship to the awareness other than the potential observer, am i the awareness or am I really no thing?

That is not going to change. There is no such state as not being. Or is there? What is true in your experience?

My experience is always Being unless when I had a void type of experience but even then there is awareness or in deep rem sleep where awareness comes back to mark that there's a difference between here --> there --> here but I dont know if that's considered Being still.

[Ilona]

Interesting. I find that there is no certainty in your answers

Not that I know of but I am open to the possibility

I invite you to look closer, in your experience and see, is the possibility of not being is real or imagined?
Is sense of being, being aware something that comes and goes or is it always present?
Do you need to try to be alive?
Do you need to strive to survive? Or is being here by default?

Look through the day, is there a moment of not being aware even thought the content of awareness is changing?

Write what you notice,
Love

[tantra]

I invite you to look closer, in your experience and see, is the possibility of not being is real or imagined?

Not being is real when I look within as there's nothing there but when I experience life i.e. reality then all experience have that - in the sense life keeps going. I am empty inside other than thoughts and emotions that come and go but "beingness stays" in the experience of life.

Is sense of being, being aware something that comes and goes or is it always present?

I have a belief that Awareness is always present but the objects or identification with what is experienced is not - like a movie film just keeps moving along. It seems awareness is there of some sorts but may not be conscious of such in some instances.

Do you need to try to be alive?

No I do not it just happens

Do you need to strive to survive? Or is being here by default?

It just is no striving at all

Look through the day, is there a moment of not being aware even thought the content of awareness is changing?

I notice lapses in awareness but some how I made it work for example driving same route to work this morning - I just show up. Thoughts and emotions "flavor' the awareness base on content via "reality or life happening"

[Ilona]

Not being is real when I look within as there's nothing there

How would you know that if you are not aware? Even void is experienced and for that you need to be here. In other words awareness is here with and without the content. I want you to investigate is being on by default, in experience, in actuality, are you ever not here? Is there ever a time when sense of being is not?

Put all you have read on the side, just look in your experience alone. You are here now, being is. Can you not be here now?

You say you have a belief that awareness is always present, is that a belief or knowing?

Write what feels true,

Love.

[tantra]

How would you know that if you are not aware?

I thought it was because of a "break" in remembering but that isn't awareness thats memory in the sense of knowing some from --> here [space not know] --> here so I see awareness is always based on my experience.

I want you to investigate is being on by default, in experience, in actuality, are you ever not here? Is there ever a time when sense of being is not?

Yes based on my experience Being is on by default. No it seems Being is always present.

Put all you have read on the side, just look in your experience alone. You are here now, being is. Can you not be here now?

No I can't not be here as I am

You say you have a belief that awareness is always present, is that a belief or knowing?

I struggle with this as what is "known" as it seems to be so entirely. As my past knowing has always been related to memory and this is different kind of knowing. Where it just is the way it is.

[Ilona]

Yes, this is different kind of knowing, that is about what is here now.
Like you open a tap of water and you put your hand under water, you know if it is cold or hot. No memory or thinking is required.
Another way to explain is this:
If I ask you, what colour socks do you have on right now, you can tell me from memory, thinking about what you put on or from looking. You can look down and see, then describe. This is looking and knowing what you see. Does this make sense?

When you look around you see colour and shapes. They are here. Are you making the colours happen or are they here by themselves?
When you hear sounds, are you doing anything to hear them or are they heard automatically?
Sense feet on the ground, are you making that sensation be here or is it given?

You can check what is here, in actuality and know.

Now let’s look at the sense separatenes, or sense of a separate self. How do you know it’s a sense of separatenes? Is it a muscular contraction? Tightness? What is this sense in actuality? Where is it felt?

Describe what you see.
Love.

[tantra]

If I ask you, what colour socks do you have on right now, you can tell me from memory, thinking about what you put on or from looking. You can look down and see, then describe. This is looking and knowing what you see. Does this make sense?

Yes that makes sense.

When you look around you see colour and shapes. They are here. Are you making the colours happen or are they here by themselves?

I didn't have to do anything on my end they are present without my involvement consciously.

When you hear sounds, are you doing anything to hear them or are they heard automatically?

The sounds just happen

Sense feet on the ground, are you making that sensation be here or is it given?

It is given

Now let’s look at the sense separatenes, or sense of a separate self. How do you know it’s a sense of separatenes? Is it a muscular contraction? Tightness? What is this sense in actuality? Where is it felt?

I don't feel separate from my experience at the moment but there's levels of things that come about during a feeling or though of seperateness such as anxiety or knot in stomach. Its felt in my stomach and some times in my upper shoulders as tightness but I am not feeling separate from my experience at the moment. Retrospectively I see in the past when it happened that I noticed it in my stomach but what was taking place was almost like energy moving away from my heart into a weird ball into my stomach sensation is fear of the unknown or a feeling of shame comes up based on my response from the reality and bunch of thoughts trying to enforce that shame.

[tantra]

Now let’s look at the sense separatenes, or sense of a separate self. How do you know it’s a sense of separatenes? Is it a muscular contraction? Tightness? What is this sense in actuality? Where is it felt?

Just happened outside while walking back to work I noticed a contraction in my gut when I started feeling like the reality was "moving" and watching the trees infront of me swaying back and forth and the leaves magnificencently shaking started to feel like my reality was about to "glitch" which again is a feeling of fear arises in my gut and it left and noticed it again while a women that was cute smiling at me was walking near me as if I was being seen same stomach feeling "gut" but this time pain was sharper bottom right side and thoughts of shame arose.

[Ilona]

Thank you very much for the answer.

The thought of separateness and the painful feeling in the gut, what does it tell you? The sensation is not separate from experience, it’s something here and it is experienced, felt, noticed. Can you look and tell me, what does that sensation of tightness want? Does it have a message? What is it doing here? What is it’s function?

Observe it and get back to me.

Love.