Here I aren't

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ClearWater90
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Here I aren't

Postby ClearWater90 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:17 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
All is appearance only. A series of sensations and thoughts spontaneously appearing. No central control unit called "I." This body mind is as responsible for it's own actions as it is for others, that is to say, not at all. The "I" is a thought referring to other thoughts only.

What are you looking for at LU?
Looking to help others see this obviousness. The simplicity. Although, it is subtle and even difficult to understand if interest hasn't been aroused already. Want to help others understand who have either begun the "process" or taken an interest in it. Of course, moderators and peers are welcome to question the so-called "understanding" in the meantime. Yuck, language can be so unwieldy at times.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to clarify and maybe deepen any understanding already present and potentially examine it from many angles previously unconsidered. I expect to help others do the same at some point. I expect to have some fun deconstructing our good ol' thought up "reality!"

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Where to begin? 3 to 4 years zazen, self-inquiry, study of various scriptures from the mystical, non-dual standpoint as well as various "direct path" teachers. Of these teachers, probably Ramesh Balsekar, Wayne Liquorman, ane Greg Goode were probably the most helpful of pushing this "I" over the edge (figuratively speaking). The Gateless Gatecrashers and Liberation Unleashed books were helpful as well. Although I can only say "seeing" happened. Nobody did it. Heaviness disappeared on its own.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Ilona
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Re: Here I aren't

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:59 am

Hi Clearwater,
Lovely to meet you and welcome to the forum!
From you intro it sounds that all is clear for you and you are here to offer your assistance. That’s appreciated very much. As you see LU needs more guides and one has to wait a long time to receive assistance. So thank you for patience!

Can you tell me, do you have any question regarding no self? Or all is clear and there is no more doubt?
What has changed in your normal everyday life since you saw through the illusion?
What hasn’t changed?

Looking forward to your answers.

With love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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ClearWater90
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Re: Here I aren't

Postby ClearWater90 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:33 pm

Lovely to meet you and welcome to the forum!
Thank you for the warm welcome Ilona! You must be quite the celebrity in here! Your dedication to revealing the subtle obviousness is impressive!
From you intro it sounds that all is clear for you and you are here to offer your assistance.
Well I can't say when it happened exactly but somewhere something changed where suddenly everything was fine even when it wasn't. Like something was even fine with the not-fineness of things! So strange because I can't point to a particular event or instance when it happened. Just flashes of insight along the way. Weird experiences etc. But none of them were this because "this" isn't a thing. I always quote Nisargadatta when he said it in the negative "Nothing is wrong anymore." That's the best I can put it. I could talk about this absence of something for hours and it wouldn't do it justice although sometimes I'm drawn to lol.
Can you tell me, do you have any question regarding no self?
Nothing really striking. I sometimes wonder about other people experiences with this and if there is any correlation between this understanding and behavior. But I can't say for certain that that is the case. I also can't say what practices or temperaments beforehand lead to enough interest, ability and/or curiosity that give way to this seeing. But it seems like if there is a strong desire for Truth it happens in most cases. Of course, this desire can't be manufactured. Like all things. I feel like I'm going off on tangents now lol.
What has changed in your normal everyday life since you saw through the illusion?
Well, that's a tough one. I'd like to say nothing has changed because it's impossible to say how much of any change is a result of this seeing. There just always seems to be peace underneath everything. And it's like I am this peace. It seems so obvious. Even when it's temporarily forgotten and I consult an occurring thought that refers to when it was apparently forgotten it is seen that this peace even existed then in order to allow that apparent forgetfulness? Does that make sense?

And even stranger still, it feels like it's always been this way, which seems to contribute to the feeling that there was no "event" where seeing finally happened. It's a never-ending source of amusement and fascination for "me!"
What hasn’t changed?
Well, in a way, everything is the same! The sensations still happen that one might describe as anger or impatience. They seem to be a natural part of this organism! But there is also a lot of pleasure and joy also. Stories about the sensations are seen clearly as stories fairly easily with only very few exceptions. And even those exceptions are seen "through" later. There is a "hollowness" to everything as well as a simultaneous "fullness." Calling it strange doesn't even cut it. Same person, same relative growth and change. Witnessed as this un-thingable thing. No separation. No volition. Even the apparent volition occurs non-volitionally. Lol

Thank you for your polite and warm welcome! It feels nice to unload these things on someone who understands. There are few people out here who "get" this "ungettable" "thing".

Peace,
Clear Water

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Ilona
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Re: Here I aren't

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:16 pm

Lovely, thank you for answers. Yes, it’s nice to put this is words and communicate about this with someone that gets it.
Your description of peace underneath it all resonates. And it’s fine that there was no event, that seeing could be attributed to. It’s non event, I say, a drop of belief. Nothing happens and yet there is some other flavour, that feels like home.

We usually ask some ‘final questions’ here that allows to have a peek into what you see. If there is nothing else that you want to explore, would you say you are ready to answer them?

Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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ClearWater90
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Re: Here I aren't

Postby ClearWater90 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:07 pm

Hey Ilona,

Thanks for the prompt replies!

And yes. It does feel like home!

And no desire to explore anything in particular comes up. So yes, I would say I'm ready for the final questions.

Fire away!

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Ilona
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Re: Here I aren't

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:10 pm

Sweet! Here they are :) some questions will not be very relevant, but just write what comes up.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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ClearWater90
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Re: Here I aren't

Postby ClearWater90 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:15 pm

Hey Ilona!

Well here goes nothing!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Nope! Never is, never was! A boundary cannot he found! Even when "I-thoughts" occur they occur in this boundlessness where no boundary between here and there, inside and outside can be found! The sensation or idea of separation doesn't even really make sense. Because even a "sense" of separation must occur in this boundlessness. And nothing appears to be manufactured by anything in particular. How could it be? Everything needs a larger context in which to appear. And everything has the need to appear and at once. Even apparent differentiation needs this larger context. Things appear to have the need to appear spontaneously moment by moment. How could there be a center anywhere? And how would we know of it without this larger boundless context. Strange to even talk about!
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.
The illusion is a series of related thoughts referring to an "I" center. These thoughts appear to suggest volition either explicitly or implicitly. No two thoughts can exist simultaneously and so they occur as a series in my experience. For example: "I am here", "you are there." The greatest illusion of all is the label that refers to a "self" or "center" that can't be discovered because I appear to be the context as which objects appear. But I can't conceptualize it or it becomes another thought. So every thing is allowed to be as it is because it is seen that there isn't any other option! And even that seeing or thought occurs spontaneously! So then there is rest. Looking for the answer in the mind stops. As far as where things appear I say "I" appear as them rather than they in me because in suggests that I am a container or space and there can be a known boundary between what I am and what appears. But then there must be an even larger context for that to appear and so on. I don't want to imply that anything belongs to "me". In truth nothing belongs to anything else. The totality belongs to the totality. Even when that totality is an apparent gap in experience or an absence of objects which would then be "nothing." Things appear spontaneously and simultaneously in their totality. Holy rambling...
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Hmm it doesn't feel like anything! Hard to explain. But this nothing is spacious and free at the same time! But it is where and as which the spacious and free feelings happen! So it is nothing in particular. But there seems to be less struggling. The idea that things could or should be different than they are doesn't happen anymore. But my preferences still exist. Acceptance is definitely not the same thing as approval in many cases lol.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The last thing "I" probably did (or thought I did) was "try" to get somewhere and then realize that that trying wasn't manufactured by anyone. The urge to seek wasn't up to a "me" it was an appearance. Maybe something short-circuited. No idea. Even so. What a blessing this short-circuiting was. Things kept spinning for a while. But this spinning seems to have winded down on its own.
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
"Decisions", "intentions", "choices" all happen spontaneously. Control doesn't exist. No controller. Even a "controller" would need a larger context to spontaneously appear in. So it wouldn't be true "control". I'm realizing how difficult it is to communicate these things! What makes things happen? Omg. No fucking clue. Shit just happens. How does it work you ask? No fucking clue. Shit just happens. Then more shit happens. Sometimes they appear "ordered" or regular and other times "disordered" or irregular. But always spontaneous! The thoughts refer to apparent patterns all on their own in an attempt to make sense of things. The patterns occur all on their own. It's tempting to apply intelligence to something somewhere but that would even be spontanouesly occurring from nowhere! And that thing to which it would be applied would need to exist as a phenomenon spontaneously occurring in this larger context! I'm getting repetitive. It cannot be thought about simple as that. This is all thought short circuiting lmao!

What am I responsible for? Nothing. What I? I am as responsible for my own actions as I am for someone else's! Or for the Earth's rotation! Examples from my own experience. Hmmm. Well I used to be a drug and alcohol addict. I used to try to drink and use drugs in moderation! But even that desire was removed from me. Or it just didn't appear to me anymore. It certainly wasn't a me that did it. Or the first 3000 times the "I" tried to quit there certainly would've been more success!
6) Anything to add?
Nah. I'm exhausted from trying to explain the unexplainable lmao

Thank you for the opportunity to share! Sorry if I was repetitive or rambling! I didn't want to miss any angles. Please ask for clarification on anything that seemed unclear, unjustified, or didn't seem to make sense! Or that appears to you to be different in your experience!

Peace,
Clear Water

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Ilona
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Re: Here I aren't

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:22 am

Wonderful, thank you for answers! I felt no further questions arise reading your words. You are welcome to join the guides and with a little bit of learning what we do here, start offering your service.
Someone will send you a message shortly and invite you to join Facebook group.

Thank you,
Love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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