New Member Seeking a Guide

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:40 pm

Hm, where is the one found who uses a tool to do something?
There isn't one....but it's like having a name there are times it's useful. In an ultra-marathon - towards the end of a race having the illusion of a self is useful. "I never quit, I want to beat X, I want to finish in X time." When your body doesn't want to work, and all you have is the self that is powerful. I have been exploring how would that compare to the direct experience and is one more useful than the other. Will reflect more on this....
There is a self, or there isn't a self is both neither right or wrong. There always will be a self/I/Jay in a story, but the self isn't what one thought it is, the decider, controler, the one seeing, hearing ect.
Stories will never disappear, the identification with it does.
How does this make you feel?
That's an excellent perspective.....

Good question.
When thoughts are followed in a quiet way, no judging, no pushing away - is any observer of thought found in DE?
And come to thinking of that - any thinker?
No, there is no thinker or observer.

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:13 am

"I never quit, I want to beat X, I want to finish in X time." When your body doesn't want to work, and all you have is the self that is powerful.
Hm, can it be known that there is cause and effect? Like "telling myself that gets the last bit out of the body"? Can this be known or is this an assumption?
Is there a motivator?
It seems as if thoughts have many voices: the motivational voice, the critical one, the hopeful one, the ... , the ..... - fill the gaps. One could fill a stage with giving actors the voices.
But does thought have a role, a voice?
I have been exploring how would that compare to the direct experience and is one more useful than the other. Will reflect more on this....
Whose exploring? Who is finding out which is more usefull?
How does the switching between direct experience and not DE happens? Is there a decider or controler?
In the story there sure is, but really?
How does this make you feel?
That's an excellent perspective.....
Could you please answer this question?
Go for your feelings and see what is there.
No, there is no thinker or observer.
Yip, can't be found.

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:13 pm

Hm, can it be known that there is cause and effect? Like "telling myself that gets the last bit out of the body"? Can this be known or is this an assumption?
Is there a motivator?
It seems as if thoughts have many voices: the motivational voice, the critical one, the hopeful one, the ... , the ..... - fill the gaps. One could fill a stage with giving actors the voices.
But does thought have a role, a voice?
You're right; this is an assumption. There is no motivator, and there are just thoughts.....this links to the question below which I will answer more below, but there is a fear without this (identity) what will happen in a race situation.
Whose exploring? Who is finding out which is more usefull?
How does the switching between direct experience and not DE happens? Is there a decider or controler?
In the story there sure is, but really?
Again you're right....there is no who, there is no controller....
Could you please answer this question?
Go for your feelings and see what is there.
There is sadness, loss, grief that Jay's identity is a story. I wanted to ask - how can you tell when you are thinking you are seeing vs actually seeing but this element is seeing and yet hard to articulate. Jay needs to understand thoroughly to get things, but today Jay is beginning to see.

Jay's identify was a big motivator. Without it feels Jay is trying to label no-self with labels like I will be able to run free, yet I realise these are just labels...

Love,
Jay

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:42 am

We take most suggestions/assumptions of thoughts content for true value and it is good to really use discernment and check again and again to reveal what can be known (DE) and what are guesses/assumptions.

If you look at something a bit further away from you, you could describe the whatever it is. You could describe form, material, what it is and so on. Check what can be known via DE.
If I'd ask you to describe the back of the thing you could even do that too, right?
There is no way you could find the answer in your direct experience, or? So how comes there is an answer?
Tell me what you used and what you found.
There is sadness, loss, grief that Jay's identity is a story.
Beautiful. I am serious here. :-)
The story of Jay is formed of identifications and beliefs and assumptions and and... it was build up, cared for, had its moments and might be an interesting story and luckily it will still be around. The only thing that changes is the overview.
So your feelings are having a place here.
It is good to sit with these feelings and simply allow them to run freely, no resistance to anything. The sense of being Jay can stay.

The changed overview is that self isn't the decider, controler, motivator and so on - life is just happening.
So say good bye to all the identifications which might come up. Say thank you and let them go.
how can you tell when you are thinking you are seeing vs actually seeing but this element is seeing and yet hard to articulate.
I don't really get the question, could you try again?
Without it feels Jay is trying to label no-self with labels like I will be able to run free, yet I realise these are just labels...
You are right. One says Bye! to one identification and it can speedily happen that there is a Hi! for another.
Discernment.
So if you can notice this you are on a good path.

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:27 pm

We take most suggestions/assumptions of thoughts content for true value and it is good to really use discernment and check again and again to reveal what can be known (DE) and what are guesses/assumptions.

If you look at something a bit further away from you, you could describe the whatever it is. You could describe form, material, what it is and so on. Check what can be known via DE.
If I'd ask you to describe the back of the thing you could even do that too, right?
There is no way you could find the answer in your direct experience, or? So how comes there is an answer?
Tell me what you used and what you found.
I'm not sure I understand the question fully but here I go...

Jay is looking at his TV. In DE there is a noise of a car outside, there is experience e.g everything that is seen but no labels. The label for this item is a TV and Jay knows that but that isn't in DE. Jay has a memory that could be the back of the TV but is unsure if that is another story. In DE Jay walks to the TV and looks behind it. Before looking behind it, there was a memory of the experience of setting up the TV. I initially thought DE/Memorie may have been linked, but actually, they are assumptions. As I look around my living room at, items in a non-De way I can assume I know the back on them but I don't actually know and would have unlikely challenged that assumption before the exercise. Have I gone down the right track?

[quoteI don't really get the question, could you try again?][/quote]

Is it possible to imagine you have gone through the gate without going through or for the illusion of you to come back?


I also have a question around what one may label as a horrible experience. For example, if you were saying goodbye to a loved one as they passed away or the end of a relationship In DE, you have the experience but no identification. Without identification or labels, it makes all experience equal (I understand the story will still exist but without identification) - is that correct?

Love,
Jay

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:27 am

Allow me to rewrite parts of it:
Jay is looking at his TV.
Looking at color form (seems as if there is a point from which seeing is happening, called Jay).
In DE there is a noise of a car outside
In DE there is sound (thought suggests the sound might come from a car).
Is there a car in direct experience?
Can it be known?
there is experience e.g everything that is seen but no labels. The label for this item is a TV
Right, there is seeing + color/form.
Jay has a memory that could be the back of the TV but is unsure if that is another story. In DE Jay walks to the TV and looks behind it. Before looking behind it, there was a memory of the experience of setting up the TV. I initially thought DE/Memorie may have been linked, but actually, they are assumptions.
Memory aka thought, right? This points to there being a past, right? Can anything of memory/past be found in DE?
And you are right, the only way to get back of TV in DE is going there and look at colour/form=labeled TV.
As I look around my living room at, items in a non-De way I can assume I know the back on them but I don't actually know and would have unlikely challenged that assumption before the exercise. Have I gone down the right track?
Yip.

So let this sink in.
The back of an object is a DE blank, right. What happens with blanks?
They are filled, right?

It is a bit tricky, due to thoughts speed, but please look out for blanks and observe how and with what they are filled.
How often does it happen?
When does it happen more often?
Does it always make sense?
Can that what fills ever be more than an assumption, a guess?

And did you try sitting with the sadness?
And we are a pronoun friendly environment here, you are allowed to write I, me, mine. :-)
Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:39 am

OOps, forgot something.
Is it possible to imagine you have gone through the gate without going through or for the illusion of you to come back?
Yes and no.
Usually one really knows that one is through.
But, one can seem to fall out by falling for a story again.
Looking through the illusion of the self is step one of letting go of the I-identity. There are more illusions which need looking at, and up to a point the story can become quite strong again and one can fall for it again. That's why it is good to know how to look at the story and how the story is built up, so detanglement can happen quicker and the stickyness will become less and less.
I also have a question around what one may label as a horrible experience. For example, if you were saying goodbye to a loved one as they passed away or the end of a relationship In DE, you have the experience but no identification. Without identification or labels, it makes all experience equal (I understand the story will still exist but without identification) - is that correct?
All experiences are equal, yes. But after step one it is a bit early for that. Many start looking at ill will and desire, at likes and dislikes for a shorter or longer time, this breaks another illusion.
Does this mean you will never feel sadness or pain or anger again, no! It just means there is no identification with it and it can flow through freely, meaning there is little to no reaction to it - but this starts much later on the path.

So in case you had an experience of no self and an experience that shattered that overview, we can discuss this and have a look together what happened.

I sent you a pm.

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:40 pm

Is there a car in direct experience?
Can it be known?
No, there is not. Its another assumption.

This made me smile - I used to question in my head years ago how does the brain know all the sounds I can hear - how beautiful and interesting that thought was AND wrong!

I have been thinking about what is the purest essence of DE, which I would label 'experience' made up of sounds etc. Still, when I try and deconstruct it even further, e.g. what is DE without labels or verbal pointers, I lack the words to descirbe it. Then it clicks and have the realisation all I am doing is creating new labels....its been a bit of a paradox in my head.
It is a bit tricky, due to thoughts speed, but please look out for blanks and observe how and with what they are filled.
How often does it happen?
When does it happen more often?
Does it always make sense?
Can that what fills ever be more than an assumption, a guess?
I understand the questions, but I am not sure I know how to do this. It seems more natural to do this with thoughts linking to actions like below....is this the kind of thing?

I was talking to a friend on skype, and because they were taking time to answer messages, I filled in the blank that they were busy.


I was in conversation with another company, and I made up lots of blanks by thinking all about the people who work there and the culture....this was another blank.

However, as I write this, I think I may have gotten it. Everything I can see with my eyes clearly there are no blanks...However, if I take off my watch and throw it over my shoulder (behind me), it becomes a blank. This means everything outside of my visual field is a blank.
I hear a sound that I cannot see its a blank that is filled
I have a rumbling in my stomach, and I fill it with "I am hungry" when I could just be thirsty or have a rumbling stomach.
Blanks allow the I to form stories about everything. This reminds me of looking at clouds and saying can you see the fish, the monster as the brain turns the clouds into objects.
At the time, it feels like it does make sense but actually explore the idea it doesn't make sense. I have an assumption of where you live, your sex, age range that made perfect sense but actually, you could be my neighbour. No, it makes no sense :)
And did you try sitting with the sadness?
Yes, I did - but It doesn't seem like a loss anymore and has allowed me to pursue something in a different manner. However, today someone annoyed me at work and I made it mean something but as I explored the experience I soon let it go....Jay is still here!

User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:14 pm

So in case you had an experience of no self and an experience that shattered that overview, we can discuss this and have a look together what happened.

I sent you a pm.
Thanks, Jadzia for your PM - I am just playing with ideas and scenarios in my head and looking at how they may play out...when I am learning something new I like to explore the concept by pushing its boundaries from one extreme to another to see how things work to accelerate my understanding.

Could you get stuck in DE?

What does pain feel like in DE?

What is DE like for someone who has no sight or hearing?

What does tiredness feel like in DE?

At the moment I am having small glimpses of no self....

At this stage of the journey, I would describe 'me' as consciously incompetent but thoroughly enjoying our walk along the path, as you challenge my thinking :)

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:01 am

Good work.
It is good that you are thourough, this work will help you a lot in the future, this is a good foundation.
I have been thinking about what is the purest essence of DE, which I would label 'experience' made up of sounds etc. Still, when I try and deconstruct it even further, e.g. what is DE without labels or verbal pointers, I lack the words to descirbe it. Then it clicks and have the realisation all I am doing is creating new labels....its been a bit of a paradox in my head.
Labeling is automatic, it is ok.
The nearest one can get to what is DE is looking at a small child.They don't have the vocabulary yet, and they haven't learned how to approach or think of what. So in fact you know....it is simply a while ago. ;-)

Yes, many many blanks are filled with thoughts about others, what they think, why they do something, what they will do next ect. - same with the "own" character.
Blanks appear anytime when something is which isn't covered by DE, like the car... sound, label.
It is good to always be on the look out for blanks and one can really get the moment of ....silence... filling pops up. These are interesting bits. It allows to check if the filling out of the blanks makes some sense, sort of, or is simply rubbish.
This means everything outside of my visual field is a blank.
I hear a sound that I cannot see its a blank that is filled
I have a rumbling in my stomach, and I fill it with "I am hungry" when I could just be thirsty or have a rumbling stomach.
Blanks allow the I to form stories about everything. This reminds me of looking at clouds and saying can you see the fish, the monster as the brain turns the clouds into objects.
Love the one with the stomach, there is a speedy assumption, but who says what is right, in case it is important at all.
However, today someone annoyed me at work and I made it mean something but as I explored the experience I soon let it go....Jay is still here!
Wonderful, Jay can stay, you know?
It is important here not to let something go, but allow it to grow, fullfill and then it is gone.
Anyway is a person needed for the letting go? Or does it simply happen?
Could you get stuck in DE?

What does pain feel like in DE?

What is DE like for someone who has no sight or hearing?

What does tiredness feel like in DE?
Go on having a look and share the answers.
Though don't cut yourself to feel pain, a bit of pinching might be ok, though. ;-)

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:45 pm

Wonderful, Jay can stay, you know?
It is important here not to let something go, but allow it to grow, fullfill and then it is gone.
Anyway is a person needed for the letting go? Or does it simply happen?
Yes, I agree, but stoping identifying with peoples behaviour that annoys me is very helpful :)

Is letting something go by exploring it a different experience to it growing, fulfilling?

No, a person isn't needed.
Could you get stuck in DE?

What does pain feel like in DE?

What is DE like for someone who has no sight or hearing?

What does tiredness feel like in DE?
I think for the majority of people the self is powerful and you need to keep assessing what DE, blanks sensations are. However, someone in an extreme case could desensitise with their emotions/identification with life but wouldn't be stuck in DE

Pain in the sense of pushing your body in sport.... This is similar to tiredness... Sensations appear in the body...you explore them, and you realise you are labelling them.... I had a moment while my fatigue went away and then had a shower and felt better. I thought I needed more experience like this to so I can learn more....then I realised Jay the learner was back...

When you start challenging your thinking, you pull layers aways and then the self seems to come back...I am gaining awareness of how the process works and yet there is no process in DE...

When you asked me to explore my feeling of loss the 2nd time it felt I had moved on and but then felt had to check whether this was correct or had a new self e.g. hijacked the experience....

DE without sight or hearing is just DE without vision and sound....

When I read my questions, I see Jay, the thinker, Jay the learner etc etc but when you go back into DE is very simple... I was walking along the street. I looked at what I could see....Of course, I tried to label everything and told myself to stop....What could I hear, where were the blanks....what sensations could I feel...

Love,
Jay

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:12 am

Always remember: Keep it simply.
Yes, I agree, but stoping identifying with peoples behaviour that annoys me is very helpful :)
Who does the stoping to identify?
See, there is a difference between telling oneself to stop identifying with peoples behaviour, though there is nothing wrong with it, or the stopping to identify with the character called self/Jay naturally sets in.
The latter one is a process, it will come on its own in time.
It is always a good idea to just notice what comes up and accept it. No resistance, no pushing away - these two really might push the story to the front.
Is letting something go by exploring it a different experience to it growing, fulfilling?
Yes, see above.
Most people are ready to push what is away. If there is being annoyed then this is what just is. So explore it!
Take it, give it space and learn.

Letting go often, nearly always has the pushing away, "don't want to have" quality. It might go away, but it might come back.
You allow something to fullfill itself, like all the emotions which never had a chance to come to light, and it melts and is gone, never coming back.
See the difference?
Work with Jays story.
I think for the majority of people the self is powerful and you need to keep assessing what DE, blanks sensations are. However, someone in an extreme case could desensitise with their emotions/identification with life but wouldn't be stuck in DE
Lets have a look at DE.
It is the most broke down way we can describe experience with words. This is what helps to see what really is there or happens or what is plain imagination.
Think of a baby, with no words yet to describe what it feels, wants, senses and so on.

Try this, scroll down to BUTTERFLY STEREOGRAM, and try it.
http://brainden.com/3d-pictures.htm
There are two pictures at once, a whole picture full of leaves and a butterfly made of leaves before a wall of leaves.
It is relaxing the background of your eyes, or what is suggested in the text to see the butterfly.
Both pictures are there at the same time. One sees the one or the other, but both are the same one picture, they are there at the same time.
Same with story and not story.

Mull this over and start integrating, both is there.
Is story less valuable, minor to non story, no identification?
Is there a good and bad?

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:47 pm

Who does the stoping to identify?
See, there is a difference between telling oneself to stop identifying with peoples behaviour, though there is nothing wrong with it, or the stopping to identify with the character called self/Jay naturally sets in.
The latter one is a process, it will come on its own in time.
It is always a good idea to just notice what comes up and accept it. No resistance, no pushing away - these two really might push the story to the front.
Ok, I see the difference.
Letting go often, nearly always has the pushing away, "don't want to have" quality. It might go away, but it might come back.
You allow something to fullfill itself, like all the emotions which never had a chance to come to light, and it melts and is gone, never coming back.
See the difference?
Work with Jays story.
Yes, I do. I will with this concept.
There are two pictures at once, a whole picture full of leaves and a butterfly made of leaves before a wall of leaves.
It is relaxing the background of your eyes, or what is suggested in the text to see the butterfly.
Both pictures are there at the same time. One sees the one or the other, but both are the same one picture, they are there at the same time.
Same with story and not story.

Mull this over and start integrating, both is there.
Is story less valuable, minor to non story, no identification?
Is there a good and bad?
I see the picture...it took a while....

I get story and not story but I'm not sure about the question 'is story less valuable' Who is looking?...Jay would say no but in DE there is no story.

Again, good or bad is just a label - In DE there is no good or bad but I think you are saying play with both perspectives and realise they are both of value...Is that correct?

User avatar
Jadzia
Posts: 2048
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:04 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:55 pm

Again, good or bad is just a label - In DE there is no good or bad but I think you are saying play with both perspectives and realise they are both of value...Is that correct?
Welcome to the fun world called non duality: there is no story in DE and yet there is a story - happening in thoughts.
There is good and bad in the story and yet there is none of it.

DE is helpful to see what is really there and what is simply imagined, added, but to stick to DE always can turn out to be a trap.
I see the picture...it took a while....
So when seeing of happened you could switch to and fro, right?
Both is there at the same time.
The story and no story.

So for the next day watch the story of Jay again and find the imagined bits, the add ins.
Share what you found.

Love,
Jadzia

User avatar
Jay433
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:37 pm

So for the next day watch the story of Jay again and find the imagined bits, the add ins.
Share what you found.
Sorry about the delay...I have a backstory that is Jay that was built from early childhood. My story (thoughts) in the moments have this overarching back story that is Jay made up of values, beliefs, identity, and so on...

The add-ins seem to be linked or connected to the back story...
Letting go often, nearly always has the pushing away, "don't want to have" quality. It might go away, but it might come back.
You allow something to fullfill itself, like all the emotions which never had a chance to come to light, and it melts and is gone, never coming back.
See the difference?
Work with Jays story.
If I sit and watch my story with my eyes shut and feel the emotions attached...like I am looking for the butterfly. It doesn't seem to matter. It is similar to watching a thought unravel in mediation.

Love,
Jay


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest