New Member Seeking a Guide

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Jay433
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New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:46 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is no self. It is an illusion or label that has been created. All thoughts, feelings and sounds are just appearances in our mind. They have no meaning until we associate names and stories giving our experience meaning. There is no past or future; there is just the moment we are in right now, and of course, our self-talk.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am unsure whether I am through the gate. I have been exploring the concept, and sometimes I see there is no I.

However, other times I am questioning have really gone through or am I just imagining and believing without seeing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect an honest and direct guided conversation exploring my experience and if needed a push through the gate. Ideally, someone who can flex their style and allow me to assess my experience and conclude my journey through the gate and confirm I am already through.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been listening to Sam Harris's Waking Up app for the last 50 days. I have explored the Headless Way app experiments, read your app and explored the concepts, read the book and researched on the internet. I am also exploring Lock Kelly's book. All in all, only about 3 months worth of experience.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Jadzia
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:12 am

Hi Jay,

I am Jadzia, we can share a path for a while if you like.

How would you recognize that you are through the Gate?
What would have to show or happen to tell?

Love,
Jadzia

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Jay433
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:43 pm

Hi Jadzia,

It's a pleasure to meet you. I look forward to sharing the path with you.
How would you recognize that you are through the Gate?
I'm not sure how I can recognize I am through the gate. For example, when I run at night with music in my ears, the music has no boundaries. It goes as far as the furthest galaxy appearing in the sky. I don't move, but the world moves towards me. This experience feels like I am through the gate. However, it's not a consistent experience and takes some self-talk and pointing of my fingers to achieve this experience. The inconsistency leads me to question am I imagining passing through the gate rather than actually seeing what is in front of me.
What would have to show or happen to tell?
I had a recent experience after harvesting all the information that made me feel emotionally ill. I had no dreams, no past, no goals and felt my belief system had fallen away. I could not get out of bed and have never experienced feeling ill without symptoms like this. It felt like my emotions had been beaten up! After 2 days, I somehow reconnected through a 10-minute meditation and after exploring the experience feel I had been stuck somewhere in my mind, but also in the present moment. A realization that nothing mattered, maybe mourning? Again I (Jay) questions if he was just ill or was this his popping as he passed through the gate. Having this experience again through choice and without the mourning would demonstrate that I am through the gate.

I (Jay) can explore experiences knowing that they are just labels and experiences, but I keep coming back to love. Take the label of love away, and you only have the experience and the body releasing chemicals. Yet, it means something to Jay (me) but haven't worked it out yet - feels like something is hanging on.

I hope that makes sense.

I know I need to drop all other forms of exploratory work does that also include mediation?

Looking forward to talking more.

Love,
Jay

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Jadzia
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:25 am

If meditation is helpful for you - do it. Don't overdo it and if possible go for meditations without intent.
Something which has the ability to tie one down is a desire to repeat an experience. Experiences are to be cherished but they are just sort of road signs and encouragement, once they happened they are gone. So never look for them, they happen when they happen.
The inconsistency leads me to question am I imagining passing through the gate rather than actually seeing what is in front of me.
In this forum we are looking at the illusion of self, not for enlightenment, awakening or whatever else. Meaning: It is not over and finished afterwards, like everything expanded the whole time, bliss, love, peace or whatever - nope.
I had a recent experience after harvesting all the information that made me feel emotionally ill. I had no dreams, no past, no goals and felt my belief system had fallen away. I could not get out of bed and have never experienced feeling ill without symptoms like this. It felt like my emotions had been beaten up! After 2 days, I somehow reconnected through a 10-minute meditation and after exploring the experience feel I had been stuck somewhere in my mind, but also in the present moment. A realization that nothing mattered, maybe mourning? Again I (Jay) questions if he was just ill or was this his popping as he passed through the gate. Having this experience again through choice and without the mourning would demonstrate that I am through the gate.
If possible put this expectation aside for now.
It was an interesting experience and it sounds you are on the right track.

For now I would like to check some topics which might help you to get clearer overlook and which can help to untangle when becoming stuck happens.

I am a sucker for looking at the nature of thoughts, are you with me?

As you know we go for direct looking, for looking at what is directly experienced at this very moment by the senses: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling (like in physical sensation).
Thoughts are noticed in direct experience too, like in "Hey, here is a thought!" - this doesn't apply for the content of thought, though.
You wrote that you had been stuck in your mind.
Have a look, is there something like mind in direct experience?
If not, what have you been stuck in?

Love,
Jadzia

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Jay433
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:02 pm

You wrote that you had been stuck in your mind.
Have a look, is there something like mind in direct experience?
If not, what have you been stuck in?

No, there is no mind in direct experience, and it cannot be found when looking.

Thoughts come and go, and the illusion of self gives the content meaning, such as being stuck but actually without a label its just experience happening.

Question - When looking to see if there is something like 'mind' in direct experience, then to follow this instruction means I need to look from the illusion of having a self. However, finding it then leads me to see through the illusion - Is this correct?
If so, I see the illusion and my first thought is that all it is? But then that's my illusion of 'self' thinking it and not direct experience.

Love,
Jay

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Jadzia
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:39 pm

Thoughts come and go, and the illusion of self gives the content meaning, such as being stuck but actually without a label its just experience happening.
An illusion is per definition something that is misinterpreted, sort of labeled in a wrong way.
So we deal with something that isn't what it seems to be.
So self isn't exactly what we learned or are conditioned to belief. The general belief is that self is the actor, thinker, decider, chooser and so on. But, hey, it isn't.
So can an illusion give a content meaning? Can something which is powerless give a meaning? Or are there just a lot of thoughts doing an amazing job?
When looking to see if there is something like 'mind' in direct experience, then to follow this instruction means I need to look from the illusion of having a self. However, finding it then leads me to see through the illusion - Is this correct?
If so, I see the illusion and my first thought is that all it is? But then that's my illusion of 'self' thinking it and not direct experience.
It is a bit tricky and then not at all. Keep it simple and don't overthink, ok?
Is self the thinker of thought?
Does Jay do the thinking?
If yes, the character Jay would be able to choose what to think, would know where thoughts come from and go to and totally be in control of them - is he?

Love,
Jadzia

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Jay433
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:42 pm

So can an illusion give a content meaning? Can something which is powerless give a meaning? Or are there just a lot of thoughts doing an amazing job?

There are just a lot of thoughts...properly overly thinking but are all thoughts amazing or are they just thoughts in direct experience?
Is self the thinker of thought?
Does Jay do the thinking?
If yes, the character Jay would be able to choose what to think, would know where thoughts come from and go to and totally be in control of them - is he?

No, Jay is not in total control and is unable to choose what to think. However, Jay keeps thinking of the exercise "don't think of pink elephants " that makes you see pink elephants, so in that one instance, he is...

Love,
Jay

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Jadzia
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:22 am

There are just a lot of thoughts...properly overly thinking but are all thoughts amazing or are they just thoughts in direct experience?
Thoughts are just thoughts appearing in DE.
The amazing related to the way they create the illusion of self.
No, Jay is not in total control and is unable to choose what to think. However, Jay keeps thinking of the exercise "don't think of pink elephants " that makes you see pink elephants, so in that one instance, he is...
One instance wouldn't be enough to prove something, or?

Maybe you already did it, if yes, please do this excercise with a beginners mind, full of curiosity and wonder, a bit childlike.
Imagine you are an Alien, from far outer space, and you encounter humans. They seem to talk a lot about something like thinking and you have no clue what they talk about. You try various methods of getting it and suddenly you can listen into someones thought .... yours right now.
When you just observe thoughts look for the stories, plot twists, characters, events and so on. In case the story draws you in - fine you noticed- untangle and go back into observation mode.
Have a look at the story in a way you analyzed stories in school, how is the story build up, who is the main character, what moves, motivates it and so on.
Stay in the I am an Alien to thinking mode.

What did you find?
Did the story just happen or did writing still take place?
Is the story credible or are there blanks?

Love,
Jadzia

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Jay433
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:06 pm

Ok, I will play with the exercise and let you know what I find.

Love,
Jay

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Jadzia
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:46 am

Take all the time you need and repeat it as often as you like. :-)

Love,
Jadzia

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Jay433
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:56 pm

What did you find?

This is surprisingly challenging, and I needed to find time to do it.

Often I missed the thoughts before I could observe...

An image appears, e.g. a picture of a person almost a millisecond later the image gets labelled - name, and then a story or meaning given to the thought. When exploring the thought and comparing it to other thoughts, it's just a thought. It is the labelling that gives in meaning. If I broke it down and chunked up through the labels...My friend x, friend, human being, up to thought - I concluded thought is just thought.

There seems to be another type of thought that is just words.... it's still just a thought.
Did the story just happen or did writing still take place?

I am not sure I am clear on the above question, but the thought appears and the labelling a second later creates the story. Is this what you are referring to? The labelling (writing) seems to happen after the thought but only slightly.


Is the story credible or are there blanks?

No, the story is not credible, and there are blanks.

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Jadzia
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:10 pm

Good Job!
Did the story just happen or did writing still take place?
I am not sure I am clear on the above question, but the thought appears and the labelling a second later creates the story. Is this what you are referring to? The labelling (writing) seems to happen after the thought but only slightly.
Almost, but the question went into the direction: Is there a writer of the story? Or does the story develope on its own?
Did you find a writer?

You did find lot of thoughts.
Are the thoughts connected to each other or is the pointing towards connection and one thought following the other only happening in thought? Just another thoughts content?

Hey, and what do you think of the Jay story? How is the plot told, how is the character presented? What characters are in the story, too? What a are the basic emtions of the character?
Really allow yourself just listening to the Jay story sort from a bit above it.
You don't have to write what you found in your answer - just how does this story look when you watch it like someone who looks for material for a film?
This excercise doesn't so much need direct looking but compassion and joy in a way a story is presented. Use curiosity, non judgement and enjoy the film.

Edited to add:
Why this excercise? It is amazing how many people want to get rid of the story, is it necessary or is it something that can run along and don't get in the way?

Love,
Jadzia

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Jay433
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:51 pm

Almost, but the question went into the direction: Is there a writer of the story? Or does the story develop on its own?
Did you find a writer?
No, I didn't find a writer, the story develops on its own.
Are the thoughts connected to each other or is the pointing towards connection and one thought following the other only happening in thought? Just another thoughts content?
A thought is just a thought, and then another thought gives it meaning.
Hey, and what do you think of the Jay story? How is the plot told, how is the character presented? What characters are in the story, too? What a are the basic emtions of the character?
Really allow yourself just listening to the Jay story sort from a bit above it.
You don't have to write what you found in your answer - just how does this story look when you watch it like someone who looks for material for a film?
This excercise doesn't so much need direct looking but compassion and joy in a way a story is presented. Use curiosity, non judgement and enjoy the film
There are 2 ways I can take the above. The first way is to look at my life, and the stories made about identity, values, hobbies, and so on . The 2nd way is to look at the thoughts as they appear and how they link to my current story, e.g. things happening now and in the short term. When I look the first way the first thing that pops into my head is Jay's story is just a story. Rereading this again both ways Jays story is just a story.
Why this excercise? It is amazing how many people want to get rid of the story, is it necessary or is it something that can run along and don't get in the way?
Instinctively when I read this, I thought, why would I want to get rid of my story? I use my identity as a tool to push through tough moments when you need to dig deep etc. However, having the ability to see there is no self is also a beneficial perspective that can be used.

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Jay433
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jay433 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:53 pm

When I look the first way the first thing that pops into my head is Jay's story is just a story. Rereading this again both ways Jays story is just a story.
Actually is this just a thought and am I actually not observing? Will consider this viewpoint...

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Jadzia
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Re: New Member Seeking a Guide

Postby Jadzia » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:18 am

When I look the first way the first thing that pops into my head is Jay's story is just a story. Rereading this again both ways Jays story is just a story.
Yes, nothing more but nothing less. It is like all the other stories - a story about living, about life - beautiful.
I use my identity as a tool to push through tough moments when you need to dig deep etc.
Hm, where is the one found who uses a tool to do something?
However, having the ability to see there is no self is also a beneficial perspective that can be used.
There is a self or there isn't a self is both neither right or wrong. There always will be a self/I/Jay in a story, but the self isn't what one thought it is, the decider, controler, the one seeing, hearing ect.
Stories will never disappear, the identification with it does.
How does this make you feel?

The story is helpful for unravelling once the illusion of the self has been looked through. There a more illusions, lots of beliefs and identifications. All will go, by and by. So saying there is no self whatever is happening in life can be a new dellusion.
Actually is this just a thought and am I actually not observing? Will consider this viewpoint...
Good question.
When thoughts are followed in a quiet way, no judging, no pushing away - is any observer of thought found in DE?
And come to thinking of that - any thinker?

Love,
Jadzia


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