Ending The Search

[Limazine]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That if you cannot find that you exist as something in particular then you are not something in particular. What I understand by this is that who you think you are is an illusion, a character that you have convinced yourself exists.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would definitely like to be able to end the constant cycle of searching. It seems that seekers are stuck both looking for realization and then pushing it away with exact same effort spend looking for it. The paradoxes are confusing to work through without any form of guidance.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Would expect some guidance in terms of what mental traps am I falling into. It would be great to have a person to talk to about these issues and see what are the best ways to continue questioning that there is no real inherent self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
At first it was mostly meditation and then trying to be more aware. Was sort of into the whole peace and love thing but I switched to direct inquiry methods. My practice now has been mainly spiritual autolysis as presented by the author Jed Mckenna, which is something I have been doing every day.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[adamrenton]

Hello there Limazine,

It is my pleasure to guide you. The most important thing - during this process - is DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE in short) and TOTAL HONESTY.

Write only what you truly see and don't jump into conclusions and ideas.

Last thing - please don't watch or listen to any spiritual material or read any spiritual writings for the duration of this inquiry. We only need your DIRECT EXPERIENCE and TOTAL HONESTY.

My first question is:

What comes up when you read this phrase: "You don't exist at all"?

Sending Love

[Limazine]

Hey adamrenton,

Thank's for taking the time to help with the inquiry and be the guide. I am in Europe currently but will still be posting regularly. Got it, no jumping into conclusion and ideas and no watching/listening to spiritual material. Just direct experience and total honesty.

What was the reaction to the phrase: "You don't exist at all"

My first reaction to reading the phrase was to laugh. I agree with the statement but who is there to verify that I don't exist or even that "I" agree with it.

Then there is the habit to examine which "You" is the one that is being referred to. The Limazine character or that which is.

Then I would have to ask what would even exist mean in that phrase. If existence does exists then what is recording that existing? I would be tempted to answer Limazine but then I remember that person doesn't exist. There must be the experiencing of reading the phrase but after that nothing.

Wouldn't be surprised if there is some knot that is tying the whole thing up.

[adamrenton]

Thank you for your honest approach Limazine. I hope you find Europe satisfying.
I will do my best to keep you within "navigational beacons" - just remember about DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE) and HONESTY.

Wouldn't be surprised if there is some knot that is tying the whole thing up.

As you probably know - after reading some good ol' Jed - it is all about untangling. First thing we need to look at are thoughts.


THOUGHT EXERCISE

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

1. Where are they coming from and going to?
2. Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
3. Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
4. Can you predict your next thought?
5. Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
6. Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
7. Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
8. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Please answer every question - using a number and the "Quote" function. If you have any problems with using it - let me know...

...and of course - my friend - remember about DIRECT EXPERIENCE and HONESTY. Can't stress that enough.
Don't force yourself and take your time. I'm here for you.

Adam

[Limazine]

Hey Adam, thanks again. Here's how the exercise went.

1. Where are they coming from and going to?

I couldn't find any place in particular that the thoughts came from and went to.

2. Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, the thoughts came and went effortlessly

3. Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

The thoughts that appeared are the thoughts that appeared. I don't think I could have made a difference

4. Can you predict your next thought?

If I ask myself that question, I am left waiting for my next thought which I cannot predict, so I cannot predict my next thought.

5. Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

If it were possible then I would choose to have only pleasant thoughts. I cannot select from a range

6. Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Nope, those painful, negative, and fearful thoughts are going to appear no matter what I do.

7. Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

What thoughts you get are what thoughts you get. I would have to answer that is not possible.

8. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No it is not possible because in order to prevent a thought from appearing you would first have to recognize the thought you would not want to appear.

[adamrenton]

Great job Limazine.

Do you have any questions about thoughts or the "thinker"?
Can you find "someone" who does the thinking anywhere?

If you have any doubts - please let me know. We can explore it further if seeing is obstructed.

It is very important that you SEE it and not only AGREE with it. Direct Experience at its core.

[Limazine]

Do you have any questions about thoughts or the "thinker"?
Can you find "someone" who does the thinking anywhere?

I don't have any questions about thoughts or the "thinker"
I can't find anything that does the thinking anywhere.

[adamrenton]

I can't find anything that does the thinking anywhere.

That's fantastic. If - at any point - any doubt about it comes up - please let me know.

It is very important to see the automatic labeling mechanism at work.

So now - we're gonna delve deeper into DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

DIRECT EXPERIENCE

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.
http://www.maryshomestead.com/sitebuild ... /fruit.gif
When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought
saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Direct Experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just
more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual
experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is
always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

GOING FURTHER INTO DIRECT EXPERIENCE

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you
can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct
experience) and report back how you go. If you can - give me at least 3 examples.

[Limazine]

All right, here goes

1) Walking Through The City

Upon Seeing A Tram

Seeing Blue/White Pattern and Shape
Hearing Screeching noises
Thoughts "That is a Tram" "Don't get hit by the tram"

Walking Itself
Sensation of feet hitting the floor, wind blowing over body
Smelling something not so nice smelling
Hearing speaking and beeping noises

2) Typing This Response

Seeing Black/White/Red Pattern and Shape
Thought "That's a computer"
Smelling apartment room.
Sensation of body on a chair, fingertips resting on keyboard, the act of finger pushing down on keys
Hearing the hum of computer, the clicking of the keyboard, noises from outside
Thoughts "How can I organize this so it makes sense?" "Am I doing this right?"

3) Taking A Shower
Seeing White shape thing
Thought "That's a shower"
Sensations of touching the handle, warm water on body, running hands through hair
Hearing the sound of water running
Typical barrage of shower thoughts such as "Why do so many get good ideas in the shower?" "Why do I get the feeling that life is goofy?"

4) Drinking Water
Thought "I should drink water."
Seeing white thing
Thought "That's a cup."
Sensation of holding the cup, turning faucet handle on
Seeing cup almost full.
Turning faucet off
Lifting cup to mouth
Taste like an absence of taste
Thought "How do I describe what water tastes like?" "That taste's like water."

However, is an apple actually known?

The only thing that is known about the apple is the perceptions attached to it. That would be taste, smell, seeing, sensation and thought.

[adamrenton]

Thank you for taking the time to honestly look. First we'll take a look into first two examples.

1) Walking Through The City

Walking Through The City

Is there "walking" or "the city" in Direct Experience?
Is there something like "walking through something" in Direct Experience?
What is really present when a thought "Walking Through The City" labels the moment?

Seeing Blue/White Pattern and Shape
Hearing Screeching noises
Thoughts "That is a Tram" "Don't get hit by the tram"

Is "Blue/White" Direct Experience?
Is "Pattern" or "Shape" Direct Experience?

Hearing Screeching noises

Are "screeching noises" Direct Experience?

Thoughts "That is a Tram" "Don't get hit by the tram"

Is Thought Content Direct Experience?

Sensation of feet hitting the floor, wind blowing over body

Sensation is present.
Are "feet", "the floor" or something like "hitting" Direct Experience?
Is there a "wind blowing" or a "body" present as Direct Experience?
Are there separate things doing the "blowing over" "something"?

2) Typing This Response

Seeing Black/White/Red Pattern and Shape

Are "Black", "White", "Red" or "Shape" Direct Experience?

Thought "That's a computer"

Thought happens.
Is "That's a computer" a label or Direct Experience?

Smelling apartment room.

Smelling happens.
Is "apartment room" Direct Experience?

Sensation of body on a chair, fingertips resting on keyboard, the act of finger pushing down on keys

Can you find a body in Direct Experience?
Is "a chair" Direct Experience or Thought Content?
Can you find "fingertips" or a "keyboard" in Direct Experience? What is "resting" on what?
Is there a "finger" in Direct Experience? Are there "keys" in Direct Experience?
Is "pushing down" Direct Experience or is there only sensation?

Hearing the hum of computer, the clicking of the keyboard, noises from outside

Hearing is happening.
Is "humming" or "clicking" Direct Experience? Is there a "keyboard" in Direct Experience?
Are there "noises" or is there only sound?
Is "outside" Direct Experience? Is there an "inside"?
Can you find a separate thing "coming from" "another thing" in Direct Experience?

Thoughts "How can I organize this so it makes sense?" "Am I doing this right?"

Thoughts appear.
Are the descriptions Direct Experience or Thought Content?

The only thing that is known about the apple is the perceptions attached to it. That would be taste, smell, seeing, sensation and thought.

Is "an apple" Direct Experience or Thought content?
When you look at "an apple" - what is the Direct Experience?

It is very important that we see what is actually there and what is just Thought Content. That way we can see through the seeming separation. Remember to sit down and look - without going into descriptions. That way we can go deeper and deeper into the reality. Once again - thank you for your honest approach.

[Limazine]

Thanks for typing up that response. Ready to go again.

Is there "walking" or "the city" in Direct Experience?

No, those would be labels and not Direct Experience.

Is there something like "walking through something" in Direct Experience?

No there is nothing like "walking through something" in Direct Experience.

What is really present when a thought "Walking Through The City" labels the moment?

The sensation of movement, the seeing of colors and hearing associated with "walking" and "city"

Is "Blue/White" Direct Experience?

Those would be labels of color.

Is "Pattern" or "Shape" Direct Experience?

Those would be labels of color.

Are "screeching noises" Direct Experience?

No that would be a label of the sound from "tram"

Are "feet", "the floor" or something like "hitting" Direct Experience?

None of those are with direct experience. "Feet" is a label of "the body" which is another label. "The floor" is a label of the color associated with floor. And "hitting" is a sensation of movement.

Is there a "wind blowing" or a "body" present as Direct Experience?

No there is no "wind blowing" or a "body" present as Direct Experience. There is only the sensation of "wind" and the hearing of "wind".

Are there separate things doing the "blowing over" "something"?

No there is only the sensation of "blowing over".

Are "Black", "White", "Red" or "Shape" Direct Experience?

No all four are labels for color.

Is "That's a computer" a label or Direct Experience?

It is a label

Is "apartment room" Direct Experience?

No it is a label.

Can you find a body in Direct Experience?

No just the sensation of one.

Is "a chair" Direct Experience or Thought Content?

Chair is thought content. There is labeling involved with seeing and "touching chair".

Can you find "fingertips" or a "keyboard" in Direct Experience? What is "resting" on what?

There is no "fingertips" or "keyboard" in direct experience. "Fingertips" is a label of the "body" which is another label and "keyboard" is label of the color "keyboard and in this case the sensation of "keyboard". Nothing is resting on anything just the sensation of "keyboard".

Is "humming" or "clicking" Direct Experience? Is there a "keyboard" in Direct Experience

No "humming" or "clicking" is not Direct Experience. Those are sounds. There is no "keyboard".

Are there "noises" or is there only sound?

There is only the hearing of sound.

Is "outside" Direct Experience? Is there an "inside"?

"Outside is not a Direct Experience. Inside is not a Direct Experience. There is only the Direct Experience.

Can you find a separate thing "coming from" "another thing" in Direct Experience?

No, there is no separate things "coming from" "another thing" in Direct Experience. There is only the taste, seeing, thought, hearing, sensation, and smelling.

Are the descriptions Direct Experience or Thought Content?

Descriptions are thought content.

Is "an apple" Direct Experience or Thought content?

"An apple" is thought content.

When you look at "an apple" - what is the Direct Experience?

Seeing "apple".

[adamrenton]

Great job Limazine. I know that sometimes it might seem like an FBI investigation but hey...we're investigating, ain't we? And questioning everything is the key. Jumping into the depths of truth can be a very tiring process. If you need a short breather - let me know.

The sensation of movement, the seeing of colors and hearing associated with "walking" and "city"

Is there a sensation of "movement" in Direct Experience?
Can you describe a sensation without thought content?
What is truly present as Direct Experience when "movement" takes place?

None of those are with direct experience. "Feet" is a label of "the body" which is another label. "The floor" is a label of the color associated with floor. And "hitting" is a sensation of movement.

Very good. I already asked about sensation of "movement" - so we're moving further.

When you look at "an apple" - what is the Direct Experience?

You answered seeing "apple".

Do you really see "an apple" or color only?

Please answer those honestly as you SEE it. Direct Experience only - no Thought Labels.

Now - to be clear about the Thought Content - here is an exercise for you.


Mind Labelling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry.
Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was
labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy yourself my friend

[Limazine]

Great job Limazine. I know that sometimes it might seem like an FBI investigation but hey...we're investigating, ain't we? And questioning everything is the key. Jumping into the depths of truth can be a very tiring process. If you need a short breather - let me know.

No worries, it's what I signed up for. Thanks for the help and for the short little message, ha

Is there a sensation of "movement" in Direct Experience?

No, in direct experience there is no "movement" it is a label as well.

Can you describe a sensation without thought content?

No, you would need a labels such as "foot", "fingers", "floor" etc

What is truly present as Direct Experience when "movement" takes place?

Sensation.

Do you really see "an apple" or color only?

I only saw color.

My only questions isn't color as label as well? Is color just equal to seeing? In the same way that sensation is just equal to sensation. I'll continue to try and stick within the parameters of Direct Experience.

Here's how the exercise went

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second exercise definitely felt more authentic.

2. What is here without labels?

Action

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels just describe the experience. However, getting concerned with labeling experiences definitely muddies the waters.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

The first exercise has more tension as you had to keep up with describing everything. Felt more tension in my hands, shoulders, leaning forward, and was trying to play keep up with the experiences and writing stuff down. By comparison the second exercise was relaxing, as it went on the need to even have descriptions continued to fall away "Looking at computer" just became "looking." The last couple minutes was more like a meditation than a race to keep up with thoughts. Sitting up straight in the chair, the tension in the hands and shoulders went away and the need to play keep up while writing stuff down went away.

Enjoy yourself my friend

Cheers mate, you as well.

[adamrenton]

Let's dive in.

My only questions isn't color as label as well? Is color just equal to seeing? In the same way that sensation is just equal to sensation. I'll continue to try and stick within the parameters of Direct Experience.

Very good and perceptive question my friend. Of course seeing and seen are one. Color may be also substituted by word "Image". It is useful here to show that "objects" are created by the mind only.

Labels just describe the experience. However, getting concerned with labeling experiences definitely muddies the waters.

When it comes down to this question - I have an interesting exercise for you. Watch a sports game with a commentary somewhere. During the match - notice the player/players participating in the game. Listen to the commentary. Notice that the players are doing their thing and the commentary continues.
After some time - turn off the sound. Watch as the game takes place and no commentary is needed.

Is the commentary necessary for the game to take place?
Is the commentary able to change the outcome of the game?
If the commentary said: "this game is wrong" or "this game is amazing" - would that be so in Direct Experience?
If the commentary said: "no one should play this game" - would any player stop the game?

After that - sit in silence for a while. Notice the thoughts and what they imply.

Do you see any similarities?

To make it clearer - here are some questions for you my friend:

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts. Can you see it?

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

6. Can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, as if you can somehow investigate them beforehand?

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

Please answer above questions - again from Direct Experience. We always put the stories aside.

Don't forget to enjoy yourself. Some unpleasantness might be felt but remember - it is only a sensation. No resistance needed. Curiosity is a good approach. Like a scientist trying to see the nature of things. If anything arises - please let me know.

Explore yourself :)

[Limazine]

Watch a sports game with a commentary somewhere. During the match - notice the player/players participating in the game. Listen to the commentary. Notice that the players are doing their thing and the commentary continues.
After some time - turn off the sound. Watch as the game takes place and no commentary is needed.

What an ingenious exercise

Is the commentary necessary for the game to take place?

Absolutely not.

Is the commentary able to change the outcome of the game?

It is impossible.

If the commentary said: "this game is wrong" or "this game is amazing" - would that be so in Direct Experience?

That would be outside the realm of Direct Experience.

If the commentary said: "no one should play this game" - would any player stop the game?

No they would not stop the game. Even if they were able to hear them, they would keep on playing.

Do you see any similarities?

Whatever is going to be is going to be. Thought, labels or commentary describe the game but the game will go on.

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

No, I cannot

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

A thought cannot experience a thought. A thought however, can be a though of another thought. As in the thought "Thoughts can experience thoughts". However this doesn't make it true.

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

It is a completely separate sense experience.

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts. Can you see it?

Yes I can see how the whole thing requires no effort. Thought is no different from the rest of the senses. There is resistance to the idea it's so simple or how silly the whole thing is, but that's just another thought. There is no hook for it to land onto.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

It is an isolated stream of thoughts that include "me". The sense of ownership creates a continuous story even though they do not even touch other. There is no continuity in the story of "me".

6. Can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, as if you can somehow investigate them beforehand?

They arise from total spontaneity and can only be investigated after. The only way to investigate them beforehand would be if you knew what you were going to do, which shows the control you do not have.

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

They come and go with no effort, they are created with no effort.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

Yes, I have unpleasant thoughts. I would not want to have them. If I had a conscious control over thoughts I would never choose to think of unpleasant things. That is of course, if I had that control which I do not.

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

No there is just a sense of "me". Just thoughts referring to other thoughts, creating a story.

10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

They are not inside of anything. They do not leave any trace when they have gone. However, I tend to view them as central to me and not entirely in the peripheral.