New to Liberation unleashed

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jgdapoorva
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New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:49 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
By this I understand that self is an imagination, a fantasy, a story and a thought. It is an attempt to describe what is happening and create an owner of those happenings. I understand that there is no doer. It's all a happening. Writing this and noticing this... All is a happening.

What are you looking for at LU?
I have completed the step 5 of the seven steps. Somewhere I feel that I get it. I see that there is no self... It is all a fantasy.. A story. But I am scared of forgetting this. I am scared of falling back into the self. I feel LU can help me to see through traps and deceptions that come up.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To point out to me the traps and deception. To point out to me if I have really seen through the illusion or am I just deceiving myself. The steps from 1 to 5 have been very overwhelming and unbelievable for me... There was crying. Laughter and relief... And recognition. I still am unable to believe that I have seen through the illusion of self. Its just oh my god... Oh my god.. Oh my god... For me. So I except to be shown if I am genuine or deceiving myself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating, chanting, breathing, serving since 2007. I have been associated with Art of living foundation since 2007. In 2012 I also became a teacher and have been teaching workshops. But I felt that I have still not got it and the longing to know the truth has only been increasing. I have explored the Work of byron Katie as well for some time and read many awakened writers. But somehow, liberation unleashed by Ilona made me look and the looking stayed
I completed 5 steps and here I am.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:24 am

Please can someone guide me. I will be very grateful.

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Sunyata67
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby Sunyata67 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 pm

Hi

My name is Simon and I can be your guide if you would like?

What shall I call you?

Would you have a think please on the following and post back here?

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 5 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please can you answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered?
I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
Looking forward to seeing where we get to.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:14 pm

Thanks a lot...
Sure, I will take some time and answer these questions. My name is Apoorva.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:33 pm

How will life change?
Life will become effortless, light and a smooth flow. There will be more love, joy, laughter and peace. There will be no more suffering and misery in life.
How will you change?
I will become light, easy, joyful, full of love, compassion, understanding. I will no more be stressed and miserable. I will be untouched and always free and aware.
What will be different
There will be no more ego. People will adore me, love me and follow my teachings. I will become an enlightened Master. An embodiment of love, peace, bliss and childlike joy.
What is missing
Unconditional love and the recognition from the people

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Sunyata67
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby Sunyata67 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:02 pm

Hello Apoorva

Its great to meet you. I am very interested in people. Not part of the guiding process but I would love to know a little about you and where you are from. I am a 52 year old male scientist working in the pharmaceutical industry who has practised Buddhism for about 30 years.

I like to ask a lot of questions, usually about a particular part of something you have said, and I would like us to do a number of practical exercises going forward. I think this is good as it keeps us from long philosophical dialogues built from ideas and thoughts. Does that sound OK to you.

Ok, I will launch into a few questions. Please feel free to respond in any way you like, one post on all questions, or multiple posts with one question. I would like to ask you respond to all questions, even if it is a brief yes or no. Also please try and respond after actually looking and not from the discursive thinking mind of theories.
But I felt that I have still not got it and the longing to know the truth has only been increasing.
From what you say in your post you have got it, at least on an intellectual level.
Why do you feel there is more? Who would be getting anything? How could an insight or realisation be “owned” as it may be a fleeting moment in time and then gone?
Trying to grasp something may not be the way to catch it, actively hunting may not be the best way, sitting and waiting and then watching quietly may be a better way than chasing? Any thoughts on this. Can everything be known? Could there be benefits in not knowing? Is there one truth?

There will be no more suffering and misery in life. I will no more be stressed and miserable. I will be untouched and always free and aware. There will be no more ego. People will adore me, love me and follow my teachings. I will become an enlightened Master. An embodiment of love, peace, bliss and childlike joy. Unconditional love and the recognition from the people
There is a lot here. A lot of very ambitious expectations.
For you which of these are the biggest problems with life currently?

I am interested in the I that may be stressed/miserable/suffering.

Can we do an experiment on this I please? Can you go into your meditation please and when you have reached awareness then bring to mind a situation in which these emotions arise, a scenario or event where you experienced real suffering or stress or miserableness. Let all the thoughts unfold and look at what effects are happening where in the body, feelings and emotions. The things that are arising where do they come from? How are they linked? What are the properties of this I that is suffering? What are the properties of the suffering. Please try this in reality, look closely, and report back.
Do you really need to be always free and aware and with no ego? What is wrong with the ego? Could you still have an ego and be aware of it rather than unaware, would that be a problem? If you are unaware for a period but then become aware why is that a problem? Has awareness actually gone when you are unaware? Can you have ego and no ego at the same time?


This might not be an easy enquiry but I do believe it will be fun.

Namaste
Simon

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:41 am

Hello Simon
Thanks a lot for taking out time and interest in my case. Really, I feel gratitude.
I am a 32 years old male. I have been actively in spiritually since 2007 i. e. 12 years. I have been doing meditation, breathing excerises, service since then. Since, 2012 I have been teaching meditation and Art of a living happiness course. This seeking for what is real has always been there as far as I can remember. But it has been colored with different ideas. Since, last few years my seeking as really intensified as a result of increasing suffering. I have had the nagging and persistent feeling that I am not living a false identity. Since, then I have read a lot many spiritual teachers hoping to get IT, grasp IT, and live IT out. But I have had many glimpses and they have all passed. Just some 10 days back, I somehow stumbled upon "Liberation Unleashed" by Ilona and it made me really look. The looking has stayed since then and I have done the seven steps as well. It was then only that I joined the forum to get help into my seeing.
Ilike to ask a lot of questions, usually about a particular part of something you have said, and I would like us to do a number of practical exercises going forward. I think this is good as it keeps us from long philosophical dialogues built from ideas and thoughts. Does that sound OK to you.
Yes, perfectly OK.

I will take some time to answer the rest of the questions and going through the exercises.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:59 am

Why do you feel there is more? Who would be getting anything? How could an insight or realisation be “owned” as it may be a fleeting moment in time and then gone?
Trying to grasp something may not be the way to catch it, actively hunting may not be the best way, sitting and waiting and then watching quietly may be a better way than chasing? Any thoughts on this. Can everything be known? Could there be benefits in not knowing? Is there one truth?
I feel there is more because it all looks so simple, so obvious. How can it be so obvious? so simple? What about all the wonderful experiences the enlightened Masters talks about. There has to be more. I must become like them. Always blissed out, never any pain or unpleasant feeling. Well, when I really look into who would be getting anything, I notice silence. I do not find anyone!!! But I notice, some unease, some discomfort. I do not want to let go of this sense of separate self. I want to keep it. Well, truly speaking I do not know about how a realisation is owned. I just notice that there is owning automatically and really believe in it. I really believe in these I thoughts. Also, I notice fear. The fear of losing the insights, the beautiful experiences. Maybe, you right about sitting and waiting and watching quietly. Actually, i do believe that everything can be known. Or I want to believe it. How can I ever be Enlightened if I do not know everything...YUp, there can be benefits in not knowing like innocence, relaxation, playfulness, lightness....I do not really know if there is one truth. If I take truth as what is right now, Then yes, There is just one truth...what is here right now.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:02 pm

Why do you feel there is more? Who would be getting anything? How could an insight or realisation be “owned” as it may be a fleeting moment in time and then gone?
Trying to grasp something may not be the way to catch it, actively hunting may not be the best way, sitting and waiting and then watching quietly may be a better way than chasing? Any thoughts on this. Can everything be known? Could there be benefits in not knowing? Is there one truth?
I feel there is more because it all looks so simple, so obvious. How can it be so obvious? so simple? What about all the wonderful experiences the enlightened Masters talks about. There has to be more. I must become like them. Always blissed out, never any pain or unpleasant feeling. Well, when I really look into who would be getting anything, I notice silence. I do not find anyone!!! But I notice, some unease, some discomfort. I do not want to let go of this sense of separate self. I want to keep it. Well, truly speaking I do not know about how a realisation is owned. I just notice that there is owning automatically and really believe in it. I really believe in these I thoughts. Also, I notice fear. The fear of losing the insights, the beautiful experiences. Maybe, you right about sitting and waiting and watching quietly. Actually, i do believe that everything can be known. Or I want to believe it. How can I ever be Enlightened if I do not know everything...YUp, there can be benefits in not knowing like innocence, relaxation, playfulness, lightness....I do not really know if there is one truth. If I take truth as what is right now, Then yes, There is just one truth...what is here right now.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:09 pm

For you which of these are the biggest problems with life currently?
The biggest problem right now is the unpleasantness, or emotional discomfort that I experience from time to time.

I will do the experiment you suggested tomorrow and report back to you in detail.

Sorry for taking time to do this. I have been travelling for last two days.

Thanks a lot Simon.

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Sunyata67
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby Sunyata67 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:38 pm

Hi Apoorva

I have read your replies, thank you for being so open and detailed in your responses.
I hope you enjoyed your travels.

I hope I can help you with this:
The biggest problem right now is the unpleasantness, or emotional discomfort that I experience from time to time.
We can definitely look closer into this and I have experience of working in this area with good results.
I do not know about how a realisation is owned. I just notice that there is owning automatically and really believe in it. I really believe in these I thoughts. Also, I notice fear. The fear of losing the insights, the beautiful experiences.
We will look more here as well.

I would like to wait till you have completed the previous exercise before we move on.

with love

Simon

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:27 am

Can we do an experiment with this I please? Can you go into your meditation please and when you have reached awareness then bring to mind a situation in which these emotions arise, a scenario or event where you experienced real suffering or stress or miserableness. Let all the thoughts unfold and look at what effects are happening where in the body, feelings and emotions. The things that are arising where do they come from? How are they linked? What are the properties of this I that is suffering? What are the properties of the suffering. Please try this in reality, look closely, and report back.
Do you really need to be always free and aware and with no ego? What is wrong with the ego? Could you still have an ego and be aware of it rather than unaware, would that be a problem? If you are unaware for a period but then become aware why is that a problem? Has awareness actually gone when you are unaware? Can you have ego and no ego at the same time?
The situation is my wife neither picking up my call, nor replying back. I feel so angry and so much helpless. I cannot do this anymore. All this getting angry at small things. I cannot do this. I cannot always appease her and try to please her. I am done with it. There are tears. There is crying. Sensations in the stomach and throat. Tears in the eyes. Choking in the throat. Well, these thoughts, emotions and sensations are triggered because of some external situation. The emotions and sensations are linked with the thoughts. The thoughts are believed to be real. They are taken to be the truth about the situation. When, I look closely, I see that this I is a thought entity. Its the thoughts that are talking about an I. When, I look intently there is no thought. Just looking, awareness. And then the thought comes I am this looking, bthis awareness. Really, I see myself as the looking and awareness. As if I am aware and looking. This suffering is a result of believing in thoughts.
I do not know if I always need to be aware of fee of ego. But yes, I would want to be always aware and free of ego. Well, when I am in ego mode, I feel miserable. I attack myself and others. I blame others and myself. There is lot of bitterness and discomfort. I am neither good with others nor myself.
Well, if I could still have an ego and I am aware of it. I think it will not be a problem. I will be okay with this case.
If I am unaware for a period and then become aware, it is a problem because when I am unaware, I am bitter and negative mostly. I do not treat people good then. They will not see me as evolved or liberated. I just become another normal human being with negative limitations. I do not want to be that way.
Well, I do not really think that awareness I gone when I am unaware. Otherwise how would I know what all happened and what I did when I was unaware.
Can I have ego and no ego at the same time? Hmm. I do not really understand this statement. I do not really get it.
Simon, please help me in seeing through this illusion of I. I am really tired of trying to look.

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jgdapoorva
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby jgdapoorva » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:19 am

Dear Simon,
You know what, I am really scared of letting go of this idea of Me. Yes. I am scared. I am looking and what I find is this fear. I fear I will not be able to protect myself, to take care of myself and look after myself if I let go of this I. Really. I am scared. It feels very scary and overwhelming. I cannot do this on my own. Can you please, help me in seeing through the illusion despite this fear.

Much gratitude,
Apoorva

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Sunyata67
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby Sunyata67 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:24 pm

Hello Apoorva

I will definitely do my best to help you see through the illusion despite the fear. This is a long post, apologies for that. We are making good progress and I want to keep up the momentum.
The situation is my wife neither picking up my call, nor replying back. I feel so angry and so much helpless. I cannot do this anymore. All this getting angry at small things. I cannot do this.I cannot always appease her and try to please her. I am done with it. There are tears. There is crying. Sensations in the stomach and throat. Tears in the eyes. Choking in the throat. Well, these thoughts, emotions and sensations are triggered because of some external situation.
The emotions and sensations are linked with the thoughts. The thoughts are believed to be real. They are taken to be the truth about the situation.

This is great describing, well done for seeing and communicating so well, there are clear areas to work with here.
When, I look closely, I see that this I is a thought entity. Its the thoughts that are talking about an I. When, I look intently there is no thought. Just looking, awareness. And then the thought comes I am this looking, bthis awareness. Really, I see myself as the looking and awareness. As if I am aware and looking. This suffering is a result of believing in thoughts.

Yes, exactly, so I propose soon we do next exercise on thoughts.
I do not know if I always need to be aware of fee of ego. But yes, I would want to be always aware and free of ego. Well, when I am in ego mode, I feel miserable. I attack myself and others. I blame others and myself. There is lot of bitterness and discomfort. I am neither good with others nor myself.
Well, if I could still have an ego and I am aware of it. I think it will not be a problem. I will be okay with this case.

Good work. The thing we call ego may well keep arising, but it has no power when you are aware of it and can be with it without acting out its demands.
If I am unaware for a period and then become aware, it is a problem because when I am unaware, I am bitter and negative mostly. I do not treat people good then. They will not see me as evolved or liberated. I just become another normal human being with negative limitations. I do not want to be that way. Well, I do not really think that awareness I gone when I am unaware. Otherwise how would I know what all happened and what I did when I was unaware.

Good observing.
Can I have ego and no ego at the same time? Hmm. I do not really understand this statement. I do not really get i
t.

Its just the same as above really, you may still have an ego arising nut once it is seen through it is not the same. It is not “your ego” just something else arising in reality. No need to get rid of it (it doesn’t even exist like you see it now), it is the things it triggers that are the issue, not the ego itself.
Simon, please help me in seeing through this illusion of I. I am really tired of trying to look.

You are not “trying to look”, you are looking really well 😊 You are succeeding in looking. Yes it can be tiring.
You know what, I am really scared of letting go of this idea of Me. Yes. I am scared. I am looking and what I find is this fear. I fear I will not be able to protect myself, to take care of myself and look after myself if I let go of this I. Really. I am scared. It feels very scary and overwhelming. I cannot do this on my own. Can you please, help me in seeing through the illusion despite this fear.

This fear is a common thing. In fact initially I experienced it myself.

If I say “your are fine now and don’t need protecting” what comes up as a reaction?
Why do you think you need protecting?
What exactly needs this protection and what does it need protecting from? What could be harmed?
Emotions are happening but “who” exactly are they happening to and who feels them? Are they felt by a cohesive whole you could call a self or are they localized in certain areas of the body as feelings or are they simply empty thoughts? Can you deconstruct them into componets and see which parts are “real” ie experienced by the senses in the present?
If I say to you “you cannot disappear, because what you think you are is just an imagining, and life goes on after Awakening. The Illusion is simply seen for what it is – just an Illusion. Nothing of significance is lost.” what comes up as a reaction?
Apple City Santa
These three words describe very different things. Can you tell me what the difference is please (hint one of them is real)?
You have done great to get to this point. What I can say is that fear is a mechanism. Working perfectly as a security system. It is protecting something from being found out. It is a sensation.

What I can say is that we are doing the right thing, look at fear and just let it be here, like you have done. Find where in the body is being felt, bring it closer, invite it to share its wisdom. It's fine to just let it be. Respect it. Bow to it. This is the only way I know to do this, difficult as it is, be with the fear, don’t go right into it and let it spiral off and multiply but try and sit and watch it with no judgment but with interest. Don’t try and push it away but be with it.
Then try and look what is behind the fear.


I will be here for you.

Sending blessings

Simon

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Sunyata67
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Re: New to Liberation unleashed

Postby Sunyata67 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:39 pm

Hello again Apoorva

Life is strange.

A friend of mine who is fully awakened just posted this on her facebook page....
It can feel very daring to walk out into the unknown and not have any safety belt. Letting go of the me, the watcher, I am awareness or consciousness, you become totally unbound.

Often, I felt incredibly scared though I don’t consider myself an anxious person. Just being with the fear was all I could do. I learned that the fear is the butler who opens the door to new understanding. He’ll always be part of the welcome party.
Love

Simon


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