Truly Desperately Lost

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Tue May 12, 2020 2:43 pm

Dear John,
and treating them afresh, as if they were somewhat a mystery
I love that. Why did'nt I think of that yet. It is a little bit embarassing, as this is exactly the quality that I have, when shifted. But yet, I did not look for the quality, but pressed for the shift. Maybe that did unintentionally stabilize the shifted-notshifted dichotomy.

Longer:
I had that topic with Sioned before, as he asked me if I "dispise" the "normal". I must have given an intellectual answer without realizing it: like, no no it is the same - normal and shifted. But that did not come from direct experience, but from thought (currently I do not reread my posts - must be totally embarassing the flip flop and fervor of conviction).
hmm... This is a strange topic to look at and think through. Disorienting and full of thought. Doing it in such a way, it quickly gets much too complicated with normal and shifted perspectives and watchers and immersion and filters and whatnot.
[shift]
Had a interesting Visual:
Like if you are on one side of a bridge you look to the other side. You want to go over the bridge to the promising other side, everything is different and new on the other side. So you go over. You look back and have a moment of finally being on the other side, yeah cool. Then you realize, shit the other side is over the bridge, I am stuck again on this side. But it is the other side which is promising and fresh and new. So you go over the bridge to the other side. Yeah, made it to the other side, then you realize, shit, I am again here on this side, the other side is over there ...
At some point somebody says: "wow, seen you walking over the bridge, I also enjoy bridgewalking a lot, what a fun it is."
You: "Huh? What? Wait a minute. Damn you are right."
You both do some bridgewalking, later you sit down to do some fishing, then you jump in the fresh river for a swim.

So the exercise:
First time doing the exercise was yesterday, before I read your post. Was at exactly the time you were writing the post (strange). My partner came into the bathroom and I was looking at her talking to me and asking me about something. First it was quite distanced, separated, like looking through an invisible bubble. It was fresh, or better: different, yes. But a bit uncomfortable. Not connected. Her words did not make much sense. Then there was a bit of wondering, positive emotion and I liked what I saw. Then she realized that I am different and asked me what it is, that brought "Me" back.

Then I read your post and it was a bit a heureca moment. Immediately I realized that this quality is everywhere. Looking for that quality (fresh and wonderous) it is easy to glimpse and very relaxing. Like: [looking] ahhhhh, no need to stress out, the quality is there. [Looking again] Yep still there. [looking again] Ok still there, ok ok. [looking] well, still there, seems to be trustworthy [relax a bit] etc. etc.

Today I was shifting much more often, than in the last 2-3 weeks. Each time I remembered to look for the quality, it shifted.

Had a good home schooling (corona) morning with my daughter. She also realized "it" (that I am looking) and reciprocated with fun laughter and joy. Was quite fun really.

Third exercise was with my partner today. I tried to look for the quality. But it was quite unstable/not easy. In other words, I felt like being caught on certain habitual tracks. Like a train. Even though looking for the fresh and miraculous quality, triggers kept me down on track. Habitual thought-emotion patterns (hurt feelings, feeling misunderstood: the usual stuff) played out. But, there was some freshness, lightness. She also realized I am a bit different. Biggest take away was: that emotion-trigger thing happening is really all on this side. I knew it before, but knowing is not the same as knowing, if that makes any sense.

To do it with the partner allowed for quite a harsh contrast. Nobody else (maybe parents as well) triggers such deeply ingrained thought-emotion patterns. That is why I chose her in the first place, by the way.

Thanks John!
Matthias

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Tue May 12, 2020 5:04 pm

Hi Matthias,

and treating them afresh, as if they were somewhat a mystery
I love that. Why did'nt I think of that yet. It is a little bit embarassing, as this is exactly the quality that I have, when shifted. But yet, I did not look for the quality, but pressed for the shift. Maybe that did unintentionally stabilize the shifted-notshifted dichotomy.

The mystery's there anyway. In a way, it's not so much that we look for that quality, but bring a certain approach. :)
So no need to 'shift' in order to stay in that 'shifted' place, but more to discover more about shifting, movements of perception. Oddly, by giving up attempts to stabilise, it stabilises.


Had a interesting Visual:
Like if you are on one side of a bridge you look to the other side. You want to go over the bridge to the promising other side, everything is different and new on the other side. So you go over. You look back and have a moment of finally being on the other side, yeah cool. Then you realize, shit the other side is over the bridge, I am stuck again on this side. But it is the other side which is promising and fresh and new. So you go over the bridge to the other side. Yeah, made it to the other side, then you realize, shit, I am again here on this side, the other side is over there ...
At some point somebody says: "wow, seen you walking over the bridge, I also enjoy bridgewalking a lot, what a fun it is."
You: "Huh? What? Wait a minute. Damn you are right."
You both do some bridgewalking, later you sit down to do some fishing, then you jump in the fresh river for a swim.

Yeah, no where to go, other than be :) - which is nice and easy to remember.

So the exercise:
First time doing the exercise was yesterday, before I read your post. Was at exactly the time you were writing the post (strange). My partner came into the bathroom and I was looking at her talking to me and asking me about something. First it was quite distanced, separated, like looking through an invisible bubble. It was fresh, or better: different, yes. But a bit uncomfortable. Not connected. Her words did not make much sense. Then there was a bit of wondering, positive emotion and I liked what I saw. Then she realized that I am different and asked me what it is, that brought "Me" back.

Yes, that's a good experience to have had, the 'bubble', that distance. And then, let the 'bubble' perception drop too, so one grand everyday participation.

Then I read your post and it was a bit a heureca moment. Immediately I realized that this quality is everywhere. Looking for that quality (fresh and wonderous) it is easy to glimpse and very relaxing. Like: [looking] ahhhhh, no need to stress out, the quality is there. [Looking again] Yep still there. [looking again] Ok still there, ok ok. [looking] well, still there, seems to be trustworthy [relax a bit] etc. etc.

Yep, mystery pervades life, others, ourselves, that bird over there and the way the tree sways. Given the mystery, what we can do is uncover a little more each day - an infinite unsolvable puzzle. :) - how lucky are we to have the joy of that?

Today I was shifting much more often, than in the last 2-3 weeks. Each time I remembered to look for the quality, it shifted.

Had a good home schooling (corona) morning with my daughter. She also realized "it" (that I am looking) and reciprocated with fun laughter and joy. Was quite fun really.

Lovely.

Third exercise was with my partner today. I tried to look for the quality. But it was quite unstable/not easy. In other words, I felt like being caught on certain habitual tracks. Like a train. Even though looking for the fresh and miraculous quality, triggers kept me down on track. Habitual thought-emotion patterns (hurt feelings, feeling misunderstood: the usual stuff) played out. But, there was some freshness, lightness. She also realized I am a bit different.

Ok, cool. Given that the 'bubble' is popped, this time we are listening with our whole being to whatever expression is being offered. So, if I'm listening to my partner, I'm have no intentions other than to be there listening to not only the words, but her being. I know she is a mystery, and I am too. In that space, I'm listening, perhaps in a way I've never done so before. I have no need to come back, to answer, to joke, or whatever. I'm here to listen to this being before me that I may think I 'know' but I know shit. :) - and that will soon become apparent.

Biggest take away was: that emotion-trigger thing happening is really all on this side. I knew it before, but knowing is not the same as knowing, if that makes any sense.

Yes, all the issues you have with her, are yours. :D
Quite the turnaround!

To do it with the partner allowed for quite a harsh contrast. Nobody else (maybe parents as well) triggers such deeply ingrained thought-emotion patterns. That is why I chose her in the first place, by the way.

Yes - conflict is the best way to learn, for you both.

Thanks John!

It's a pleasure,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Thu May 14, 2020 12:57 am

The mystery's there anyway. In a way, it's not so much that we look for that quality, but bring a certain approach. :
I played with that a bit. It is true. Willing/making/stabilizing the quality always brings some ... hmm ... solidification? It has some expectation in it, that influences what is looked at. Like grasping, as grasping changes the grasped. The surprise is less.

Better is to be ... more playful. Touching without contact, so to say.

It is like balancing a handstand with one finger on the tip of a vertical pole. Needs to be dynamic, but not too much. I fall off all the time.

It is hard to describe this without metaphor, close to direct experience. It is a bit like awareness is lingering with the senses (vision, etc. + thought), but without doubling into a watcher/watched configuration (that changes the "looked at") and also without getting drawn into the stream of the senses or thought.

One new discovery is that normally the shifting coincides with a thought stop (both word-thought and image-thought stops; not fully, not long, but nevertheless). But that is not necessary! Yes, it is easier to balance the handstand without being disturbed by strong winds (emotion-thought etc.). But not necessary. There was huge doubt (thoughts) here, that this is possible at all. I mean, to be really in the thick of it and still being relaxed. I wished for it, but secretly I was not believing, that it is attainable. Now I see first glimpses.

The proof is in the hardest moments. I am trained to suffer from misophonia (hearing certain mouth noises while others eat or other things, that directly invoke a harsh bodily and psychic reaction - mostly disgust). I was able to listen a bit today with the freshness, despite immediate thought-emotion-body reaction. There was both outward and inward curiosity. "Oh, that is interesting that I cringe when hearing that noise, somewhat funny as well, despite the 'cringiness'. What a strange animal I am". That was a relief to experience, and more might be possible.

Started to meditate again, a bit, not long. Had some strange meditation experiences and stopped after roughly 100 hours of practice (no real teacher). I might have a better sense now in which direction a mind-body training practice needs to go. So much more makes sense now in the meditation "manuals". It is like you obsess over reading a manual and then you see for the first time the machine. Now so much more makes sense!

I am going on a camping trip over the weekend with family. Today the first federal state opened a bit from lockdown and we rented an RV and go camping close to home. We are all very excited, my daughter literally leavers the house for the first time since 9 weeks.

Will report if I find time, or on Monday.

Thanks John for encouraging me!

Matthias

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu May 14, 2020 10:37 am

Hey Matthias, wishing you all a great time on the camping trip!!! Catch up when you return, ta, John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Tue May 19, 2020 6:38 pm

Hey John,

camping was nice, we had mostly a good time.

It is a bit weird that so much stuff is still going on.
- I still have doubts about the shifting experience, but only when not shifted. I still need to check back to see if "it" is accessible.
- That then makes me wonder (thought). Either I am not really "there", still need to DO more. But when looking to the doer - only empty canvas, or fullness (whatever you like) - just experience. Or I am "there", but when back from there next thought is, why is it "there" different to "normal", that does not feel (thought) "right" either. Then: When does this stop? (thought). Looking: Nobody who is besieged by "this" there, and no *this* either *head scratch* etc. etc.
- And much old stuff habitual-emotional patterning is still working, not as dominant as before, but still ongoing. Soo much ongoing.

Only rarely there is some, ... integration ... That is when the shifted experience falls onto/is woven into the "normal" thought based experience. I had a couple of times during camping when there were "slow-motion events". For 2-3 seconds. I was still normally thinking or immersed, but also shifted. Argh, I do not have vocabulary to describe that.

I had also a big breakthrough in understanding an old habitual-emotional pattern. It was so obvious. My parents divorced when I was 6. I needed to choose, and that made me (and still makes me) panik (decision panik). Strangely I always denied that the divorce affected me ever. Even a therapist told me about the exact mechanism and I agreed with him. But now the truth "struck" me. Before I only agreed in thought. Now I "know". My body knows. It is somehow different, although I always knew about it, without knowing/acknowledging it in a "deeper" sense. My body knows now.

I am now back to work. I had 2 quite productive days. First since 10 weeks. A lot of flow. But I mistrust it (thought).

Hope you are good, thanks for listening.

Matthias

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Tue May 19, 2020 11:32 pm

Hi Matthias

Hey John,

camping was nice, we had mostly a good time.

Excellent :)

It is a bit weird that so much stuff is still going on.
- I still have doubts about the shifting experience, but only when not shifted. I still need to check back to see if "it" is accessible.

I can understand why you're a little attached to this 'shifting', because it's cool and distinctly not the norm :), but really you're on a journey of learning a new capability and this is part of that, so if one day this 'shift' is not accessible, it's ok, it will be because you have changed, and the 'shifting' did it's job in loosening your perceiving capability. So do it for as long as it's interesting to do, but when it goes, it just marks another part of the journey.

- That then makes me wonder (thought). Either I am not really "there", still need to DO more. But when looking to the doer - only empty canvas, or fullness (whatever you like) - just experience. Or I am "there", but when back from there next thought is, why is it "there" different to "normal", that does not feel (thought) "right" either. Then: When does this stop? (thought). Looking: Nobody who is besieged by "this" there, and no *this* either *head scratch* etc. etc.

This whole no self story is more trouble than its worth. Shift the focus to noticing what is here. And smile, it's allowed. :)

Only rarely there is some, ... integration ... That is when the shifted experience falls onto/is woven into the "normal" thought based experience. I had a couple of times during camping when there were "slow-motion events". For 2-3 seconds. I was still normally thinking or immersed, but also shifted. Argh, I do not have vocabulary to describe that.

It's ok, I get it. :)

I had also a big breakthrough in understanding an old habitual-emotional pattern. It was so obvious. My parents divorced when I was 6. I needed to choose, and that made me (and still makes me) panik (decision panik). Strangely I always denied that the divorce affected me ever. Even a therapist told me about the exact mechanism and I agreed with him. But now the truth "struck" me. Before I only agreed in thought. Now I "know". My body knows. It is somehow different, although I always knew about it, without knowing/acknowledging it in a "deeper" sense. My body knows now.

Wonderful. This kind of breakthrough opens the heart a little more.

I am now back to work. I had 2 quite productive days. First since 10 weeks. A lot of flow. But I mistrust it (thought).

Ok, this is something to explore: "But I mistrust it (thought)."

Notice thought (say the verbal 'talking in the head kind') and the sense that this kind of thought is 'me thinking' and therefore if I verbally think this then 'I mistrust it' because this kind of verbal thinking IS me thinking.

Notice that association or identification with thinking as 'me thinking'.

Play around with verbal thinking as something to notice and listen to, but which isn't 'ME thinking'. So snip the identification.

With best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Wed May 20, 2020 4:48 pm

Notice thought (say the verbal 'talking in the head kind') and the sense that this kind of thought is 'me thinking' and therefore if I verbally think this then 'I mistrust it' because this kind of verbal thinking IS me thinking.
I read this sentence 20 times without getting it. Then it clicked during cold shower. Yes. That is the crux. So obvious, but not to be seen unless pointed out.
There is this feeling of me connected to thinking in general (in word-thought, and even more subtle and difficult to find in image-thought as well). Feeling the 'me thinking' sensation is different than feeling thinking. An it is also different from the feeling of thinking about me. Like saying Me, I, Mine and looking for the sense impression that gives.
Play around with verbal thinking as something to notice and listen to, but which isn't 'ME thinking'. So snip the identification.
Yes. Very helpful. First impression is that the identification happens via a body sensation "behind" the eyes (probably eye muscles) but also in the chest area (core). Wow. Thinking is indeed making me identify as me. It grounds me or assures that Me exists. But it is a trained habit. And I trained that (cogito ergo sum) so much in my life. That is also why my 'shifting' was almost always word-thought free. I was blind to rest. Damn, so stupid.

Thanks John, even at first glance it makes so much sense. Will do that more and report back.

Matthias

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed May 20, 2020 5:47 pm

Notice thought (say the verbal 'talking in the head kind') and the sense that this kind of thought is 'me thinking' and therefore if I verbally think this then 'I mistrust it' because this kind of verbal thinking IS me thinking.

I read this sentence 20 times without getting it. Then it clicked during cold shower. Yes. That is the crux. So obvious, but not to be seen unless pointed out.

Not one of my clearer sentences. :D
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Sun May 24, 2020 1:46 am

Dear John,

tl;dr
read book, cried, thank you John.

Long read:
Resisted for a week, but could not help it to follow the hint in your posts and read the free part of your book. Was hooked immediately, got the whole thing and was finished 24 hours later ...

Man, holy sh**. I read quite a bit over the last 4 years since the event, that brought me into this wild ride. In the order of 150 books easily (not all thoroughly, but for most I could give a quick summary). Tons of YouTube as well of course. Started with Magick, Psychology, Hypnosis, Mystics etc. came to Advaita, Non-Duality and Theravada Buddhism and ended mostly with Tibetan Dzogchen and Mahamudra literature (Bon, Kagyu, Ngagkpa Nyingma). Trained also a bit in meditation (roughly 100h). But experience showed that without a lack of understanding of the general landscape and what to look for, it is a bit stupid to do it (am trained in concentration and imagination already). And had some "encounters" while meditating, wich scared the shit out of me.

During the 4 years I learned the language and theory of "spirituality". I became obsessed with mapping my experiences to descriptions of experiences. And I became depressed over it (without knowing it). This constant nagging questioning of experiences. Was that a no-self state? Which theory of no-self, blablabla.
I had it all. The: I do not know anything, I am too dumb for it, It will take 20 years sitting in a cave, I need a body like a pretzel, I know how it works, I discovered the new path nobody has seen before, I am already there, I am enlightened, I am psychotic, I have a personality disorder, I am totally normal, I am seeing through the seeker hook, yada yada yada.

I could also not accept a teacher. Vow to crazy gurus? Devotion? Never. I was too proud. Thought I will figure it out for myself. Rationalized it with the saying: you don't find a guide, the guide finds you. So stupid. Anyways, I had nobody to point things out for me.

The result is that I never knew what is what in my experience? Did I see the true self? No Self? Was that a yana state? Am I awakened? And now what? That really sucked all the energy out. It was also quite solipsistic, nerdy, obsessed with "it", whatever "it" is (probably it is a macguffin).

...
Rereading the above, really sounds a bit mad. Was not that bad really.
...

So back to the book.
This was definitely the book to read at this point in the journey.
I read it Friday and Saturday. But even before, your Wednesday post made me pause and ponder.
This whole no self story is more trouble than its worth. Shift the focus to noticing what is here.


And man I could really cry, (actually I do cry). It is such a relief. And so so stupid. In that old metaphor: all the time I was looking at the finger instead of the moon. Of course I did know about that problem. Stupid seekers look at the finger. So reading the tale I THOUGHT, that this is of course not me, but the stupid student. I am too smart. I will see through the finger and right at the moon. Because I am such a gifted ... What a crap. I am an idiot.

Reading the book I felt like a slot machine. Clink, yes, clink clink, oh yes. Clink, ohhh no - of course. Clink, no way! So many things made sense to me.

Some impressions:
- Laughter and joy for 2 days. Light hearted. Open, without boundary, but not vulnerable anymore. Resilient.
- I am feeling less alone. Hope returns.
- the book is situated in my native cultural background (ok, am not english/welsh, but close enough). The magick, the wonder, that makes total sense. So much is transported, which I constantly lack in understanding in most asian approaches.
- Following the path of sound. It is important to me as well.
- No need to cut a knot? What? We can just enjoy fiddling with the knot? Never thought about that.
- Thinking is ok, just do not identify! Oh man, so dumb not to see that.
- Trust your feelings more! Really? Ok: Yes I have access to this non-dual, no-self, emptiness fields etc.. I am awake. So what? Why did I obsess so much about if I really had "achieved" "it"? (Must be that whole secrecy thing. And spiritual ego trips of teachers, who make "it" seem almost unattainable).
- I see the mystery, the miraculous. I always saw it, but forgot. Forgot so often. What is that, that mesmerizes into oblivion? The Dream and some Sirens?
- Big relief, that I maybe do not need 10 years in a cave to get "it". I can train and practise in everyday life.
- I really can and should follow my path of doing good in the world? And I can feel my way into that? Nooooooo waaaaaay. Total excitement here.

This might sound quite overenthusiastic. But against the background of my reading list, that was - by far - the most confuddling, exciting and revealing read I had, since I started. It was also timely. Maybe would not have worked much earlier.

So thanks a lot John for making this available to me and to all.

Really really really appreciated (crying a bit here, feeling stupid).

Matthias

p.s. many many questions here. may I ask?

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sun May 24, 2020 10:36 pm

Hi Matthias,

read book, cried, thank you John.

I cried writing it at times too. :)
But yes, Nesforz doesn't fuck about.

Long read:
Resisted for a week, but could not help it to follow the hint in your posts and read the free part of your book. Was hooked immediately, got the whole thing and was finished 24 hours later ...

Man, holy sh**. I read quite a bit over the last 4 years since the event, that brought me into this wild ride. In the order of 150 books easily (not all thoroughly, but for most I could give a quick summary). Tons of YouTube as well of course. Started with Magick, Psychology, Hypnosis, Mystics etc. came to Advaita, Non-Duality and Theravada Buddhism and ended mostly with Tibetan Dzogchen and Mahamudra literature (Bon, Kagyu, Ngagkpa Nyingma). Trained also a bit in meditation (roughly 100h). But experience showed that without a lack of understanding of the general landscape and what to look for, it is a bit stupid to do it (am trained in concentration and imagination already). And had some "encounters" while meditating, wich scared the shit out of me.

We all have such interesting journeys.

During the 4 years I learned the language and theory of "spirituality". I became obsessed with mapping my experiences to descriptions of experiences. And I became depressed over it (without knowing it). This constant nagging questioning of experiences. Was that a no-self state? Which theory of no-self, blablabla.

Yes, can get very clinical and politically correct.

I had it all. The: I do not know anything, I am too dumb for it, It will take 20 years sitting in a cave, I need a body like a pretzel, I know how it works, I discovered the new path nobody has seen before, I am already there, I am enlightened, I am psychotic, I have a personality disorder, I am totally normal, I am seeing through the seeker hook, yada yada yada.

body like a pretzel. :D

I could also not accept a teacher. Vow to crazy gurus? Devotion? Never. I was too proud. Thought I will figure it out for myself. Rationalized it with the saying: you don't find a guide, the guide finds you. So stupid. Anyways, I had nobody to point things out for me.

The result is that I never knew what is what in my experience? Did I see the true self? No Self? Was that a yana state? Am I awakened? And now what? That really sucked all the energy out. It was also quite solipsistic, nerdy, obsessed with "it", whatever "it" is (probably it is a macguffin).

That's an interesting point about teachers - at a certain point, as you say, it can be useful to have things reflected back, and new possibilities.

Rereading the above, really sounds a bit mad. Was not that bad really.
...

So back to the book.
This was definitely the book to read at this point in the journey.
I read it Friday and Saturday. But even before, your Wednesday post made me pause and ponder.
This whole no self story is more trouble than its worth. Shift the focus to noticing what is here.


And man I could really cry, (actually I do cry). It is such a relief. And so so stupid. In that old metaphor: all the time I was looking at the finger instead of the moon. Of course I did know about that problem. Stupid seekers look at the finger. So reading the tale I THOUGHT, that this is of course not me, but the stupid student. I am too smart. I will see through the finger and right at the moon. Because I am such a gifted ... What a crap. I am an idiot.

Reading the book I felt like a slot machine. Clink, yes, clink clink, oh yes. Clink, ohhh no - of course. Clink, no way! So many things made sense to me.

Some impressions:
- Laughter and joy for 2 days. Light hearted. Open, without boundary, but not vulnerable anymore. Resilient.
- I am feeling less alone. Hope returns.
- the book is situated in my native cultural background (ok, am not english/welsh, but close enough). The magick, the wonder, that makes total sense. So much is transported, which I constantly lack in understanding in most asian approaches.
- Following the path of sound. It is important to me as well.
- No need to cut a knot? What? We can just enjoy fiddling with the knot? Never thought about that.
- Thinking is ok, just do not identify! Oh man, so dumb not to see that.
- Trust your feelings more! Really? Ok: Yes I have access to this non-dual, no-self, emptiness fields etc.. I am awake. So what? Why did I obsess so much about if I really had "achieved" "it"? (Must be that whole secrecy thing. And spiritual ego trips of teachers, who make "it" seem almost unattainable).
- I see the mystery, the miraculous. I always saw it, but forgot. Forgot so often. What is that, that mesmerizes into oblivion? The Dream and some Sirens?
- Big relief, that I maybe do not need 10 years in a cave to get "it". I can train and practise in everyday life.
- I really can and should follow my path of doing good in the world? And I can feel my way into that? Nooooooo waaaaaay. Total excitement here.

This might sound quite overenthusiastic. But against the background of my reading list, that was - by far - the most confuddling, exciting and revealing read I had, since I started. It was also timely. Maybe would not have worked much earlier.

Well, it's lifted the heart to hear that. Yes, timeliness. Somehow, when the conditions are just so, the seed drops right in and nestles down.

So thanks a lot John for making this available to me and to all.

It's a pleasure.

Really really really appreciated (crying a bit here, feeling stupid).

Matthias

p.s. many many questions here. may I ask?

You can ask, but I may not answer, out of respect for this particular format/forum.
So yes, fire away, especially if relevant to this self inquiry.

With best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Mon May 25, 2020 10:36 pm

Dear John,

last day was total disaster. Crashed hard. My partner did unwillingly pull a string and all that sadness and negativity came back and washed me away. Really pathetic.
Partly I was just noticing it unfolding, partly I was totally trapped and caught by the unfolding. It took me very much by surprise. Like a sudden shot in the back.
Again this? Really? It was all that crap about that the others are to be blamed for all the things that went wrong and a giant pot of self-pity (I am a failure, all those years lost, it is maybe better to die, I deserve better). Really awful especially since I was partially able to notice what happens. I knew to look for myself as the source, and it was also helpful to think back to Nesforz's reflector. Many reflections did not make much sense, but at least it was mostly clear that responsibility for all and for future change is just on this side. Nevertheless there was a lot of sticky blame to my partner that made it through in the less conscious moments. And that made me even more sad and helpless.
I was really feeling helpless and lost and thought about giving up this endless inquiry.
Is that what you mean by the war? In your story I was lost in the the story and did not really get the metaphorical meaning especially in the war chapter.

Made it barely through the day, slept long. Hopefully tomorrow I can do some tea and cake as a start.

Sorry about that. I am pathetic, and somehow I also mistrusted the sudden enthusiasm. Now I know why.

Matthias

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon May 25, 2020 11:39 pm

last day was total disaster. Crashed hard. My partner did unwillingly pull a string and all that sadness and negativity came back and washed me away. Really pathetic.
Partly I was just noticing it unfolding, partly I was totally trapped and caught by the unfolding. It took me very much by surprise. Like a sudden shot in the back.

It happens, how else do we know there's more work to do. I know it feels shit etc, but that's the deal.

Again this? Really? It was all that crap about that the others are to be blamed for all the things that went wrong and a giant pot of self-pity (I am a failure, all those years lost, it is maybe better to die, I deserve better). Really awful especially since I was partially able to notice what happens.

It seems to happen like this. You get an insight, then you get tested. The test being an opportunity to road-test the insight. Usually, we're piss poor at it :) but still, like you have here, you've learned a valuable lesson.

Of course we have this disappointment because we want to have it all sussed, and now we feel like a failure and why-me, but that's ok, it's more to learn about ourselves and our emotional set-up.

I knew to look for myself as the source, and it was also helpful to think back to Nesforz's reflector. Many reflections did not make much sense, but at least it was mostly clear that responsibility for all and for future change is just on this side. Nevertheless there was a lot of sticky blame to my partner that made it through in the less conscious moments. And that made me even more sad and helpless.

Yes, we long to deflect blame to anyone but ourselves, and as you mention, the responsibility is right here - but it's hard to accept when the emotions are sore and raw.

I was really feeling helpless and lost and thought about giving up this endless inquiry.
Is that what you mean by the war? In your story I was lost in the the story and did not really get the metaphorical meaning especially in the war chapter.

Well, it's certainly a battle, one after another, a battle for self-knowledge, not awakening or enlightenment, but to open up our sticky fears and issues - very challenging to face our most tender spots; but if we don't and someone close by pokes them (and they will) guess what, we react like clockwork. No freedom here.

Made it barely through the day, slept long. Hopefully tomorrow I can do some tea and cake as a start. Sorry about that. I am pathetic, and somehow I also mistrusted the sudden enthusiasm. Now I know why.

Yes, treat it as ordinary, take the heat out of it, including the self-pity, and look to learn from it. This is not some quick process, but a journey of a lifetime, an orientation to see life as an opportunity to discover ourselves a little more each day.

And of course, one of the things we may discover, is fears of failure and self-pity, and we can try to fix that, or we can use it to learn, and ask, for example, what is this fear of failure, what am I really afraid of, if I were to fail, what am I afraid would happen? And what would that mean? And so on, so we explore what this is really about for us, because it is never the face value.

This is a real human spiritual journey Matthias, and as long as you set your sail to learn, be open and discover more about yourself, all will be well.

With much love,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Tue May 26, 2020 4:03 pm

Hey John,

as harsh as it came, it quickly ran out of energy and is almost gone. Strange.

A bit like rodeo. Thought I tamed the beast, but then another wild but brief round of bucking. We both are exhausted and breathe heavily.

Thanks for your kind words! It helped indeed.

Some looking for the face value and beyond:
It seems now very unkind of me to not have compassion with the self-pitting part. It suffered a lot and the immediate reaction was really bad parenting - unwilling to listen, not comforting, impatient. That sounds like a double personality. But the parent part is more like a compassionate knowing rather than a voice. In that parent-child metaphor the child is the inner voice (word-though, throat area subvocalizing) and the other part is deeper down. What happened during the episode was, that the deeper down part closed down, or hardened. I could also not 'shift' with intent, but shifted at times (fell out of it and became observer).
In the aftermath it got a bit weird as that feeling tone of the emotion of self-pity and the compassionate feeling of just being there with me, they interchange depending on where awareness is. That is confusing.
Overall I seem to be not that gentle with Matthias. And that is what I do with my partner as well. That is sad, maybe there is a chance to be a little more gentle if things keep crashing.
Hm. Looked again and it ... there is a fear behind the outrage. It is shame, of not being sufficient, not being worthy ... of love. Yeah shame it is. It is exactly that. That makes sense. I am watching at it now and it makes me really compassionately sad. It is so common, the shame. Shame about body, behaviour, professionalism. haha what a joke, it is really common, so many have it, if everybody would admit, it would not have a place to hide..

And now a bit back to the roots
Throughout, there was often a knowing/watching of the unfolding. Mostly in the bubble form, as observer (quite depressive that). At some times I remembered to look for this identification, that feeling-of-me in thought (the whole self-pitting and whining was a thought process build on emotions). Although I could not cut it, the pattern is now better defined and distinctive to recognise.
Tonight I also had a dream. The dream ended in literally pointing out at "me", both as character in the dream, but also as the dreamer /never had that before). I felt caught and totally surprised (woke up - heart beating). Like a finger that is pointed at you and you realize: oh they mean "me" and shit, I am naked. Or like in a horror movie and all of a sudden the screen characters point at you and you know that you are seen. That feeling, it is pure presence or pure knowing? Not quite sure, but it is replicable in a much less intense form if I point a finger out and then point back to me. Awareness is laser-pinpointing itself? Selfidentification?
But that is the feeling that I have when I speak "I", "me", "mine", except there is the additional voice subvocalization in the foreground and the selfidentification sensation is toned down a lot and in the background. It is also that comforting feeling when thinking. It is also there when not thinking, but then it is less comforting but more fresh, curious or perplex. Does that make any sense?

Overall I seem to learn as you said. But picking open this old stuff? uhh ... not nice.
I am of the sort that needs to nibble on and when I get a hold, I scrape the whole scab off. I hope it is not as bad a healing strategy as with real wounds ... Maybe the analogy is more like scraping of old plaster, one that really is baked in and does not come of cleanly. You need to do a big ugly job first and pull the plaster off, then you have to clean it with some desinfectant and only then the nice stuff starts with ointments and healing.

Thanks for walking with me for a while.
Matthias

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Wed May 27, 2020 1:32 am

Hi,

as harsh as it came, it quickly ran out of energy and is almost gone. Strange.

Happens all the time.

A bit like rodeo. Thought I tamed the beast, but then another wild but brief round of bucking. We both are exhausted and breathe heavily.

Conflict is how we learn, So we get good at handling conflict for the purposes of learning.. :)

Thanks for your kind words! It helped indeed.

Good.

Some looking for the face value and beyond:
It seems now very unkind of me to not have compassion with the self-pitying part. It suffered a lot and the immediate reaction was really bad parenting - unwilling to listen, not comforting, impatient. That sounds like a double personality. But the parent part is more like a compassionate knowing rather than a voice. In that parent-child metaphor the child is the inner voice (word-though, throat area subvocalizing) and the other part is deeper down. What happened during the episode was, that the deeper down part closed down, or hardened. I could also not 'shift' with intent, but shifted at times (fell out of it and became observer).
In the aftermath it got a bit weird as that feeling tone of the emotion of self-pity and the compassionate feeling of just being there with me, they interchange depending on where awareness is. That is confusing.

We're rich beings. :)

Overall I seem to be not that gentle with Matthias.

It is always the case, i was the same too, hated John, DESPISED John. When I realised that I despised John, I remember smiling, because it was the first true thing I'd acknowledged for years. :) And so, quite a relief, to not be avoiding myself any more.

And that is what I do with my partner as well.

This is how it plays out. Relationship to self is reflected in relationship with others. So, we work on this relationship to self - which I know sounds paradoxical :) but it is also understood. Being willing to open up to the hurt that may have been suppressed is a powerful act, and the heart cracks open a little more every time, and the more love you feel for yourself, you feel for others. Because we stop judging ourselves for being shit, and others for pointing out how shit we are. :D

That is sad, maybe there is a chance to be a little more gentle if things keep crashing.
Hm. Looked again and it ... there is a fear behind the outrage. It is shame, of not being sufficient, not being worthy ... of love. Yeah shame it is. It is exactly that. That makes sense. I am watching at it now and it makes me really compassionately sad. It is so common, the shame. Shame about body, behaviour, professionalism. haha what a joke, it is really common, so many have it, if everybody would admit, it would not have a place to hide..

Yes, you have sniffed out the right track - shame. Such a great teacher. It's a gift.

And now a bit back to the roots
Throughout, there was often a knowing/watching of the unfolding. Mostly in the bubble form, as observer (quite depressive that). At some times I remembered to look for this identification, that feeling-of-me in thought (the whole self-pitting and whining was a thought process build on emotions). Although I could not cut it, the pattern is now better defined and distinctive to recognise.
Tonight I also had a dream. The dream ended in literally pointing out at "me", both as character in the dream, but also as the dreamer /never had that before). I felt caught and totally surprised (woke up - heart beating). Like a finger that is pointed at you and you realize: oh they mean "me" and shit, I am naked. Or like in a horror movie and all of a sudden the screen characters point at you and you know that you are seen. That feeling, it is pure presence or pure knowing? Not quite sure, but it is replicable in a much less intense form if I point a finger out and then point back to me. Awareness is laser-pinpointing itself? Selfidentification?
But that is the feeling that I have when I speak "I", "me", "mine", except there is the additional voice subvocalization in the foreground and the selfidentification sensation is toned down a lot and in the background. It is also that comforting feeling when thinking. It is also there when not thinking, but then it is less comforting but more fresh, curious or perplex. Does that make any sense?

Yes, it's a reflexivity, to always be coming back to self, how am I being, feeling, thinking, perceiving - how am I participating with life, as life.

Overall I seem to learn as you said. But picking open this old stuff? uhh ... not nice.
I am of the sort that needs to nibble on and when I get a hold, I scrape the whole scab off. I hope it is not as bad a healing strategy as with real wounds ... Maybe the analogy is more like scraping of old plaster, one that really is baked in and does not come of cleanly. You need to do a big ugly job first and pull the plaster off, then you have to clean it with some desinfectant and only then the nice stuff starts with ointments and healing.

The metaphor I like is what my mother used to say - LET THE AIR GET TO IT.

Have courage, humility, bring it out into the open - be willing to see it.

Not to fix it, or hate it, or suppress it.

But for the wound to be open to the air - to see that healing takes place naturally, when we open ourselves up to ourselves - not easy, but bit by bit, we open the doors, and let the air come in.

Thanks for walking with me for a while.

It's a pleasure.

Ponder on the above, and I look forward to whatever shows up.

Much love,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:10 pm

Dear John,

its been a while. I was out doing things. Did not think a lot about LU. It was quiet (although I was quite busy workwise), a bit vacation. Needed a bit rest after the turmoil.
I am confused as to where to go or look and where not? With Sioned I had tasks to do, that felt good, as it gave me an idea of accomplishment and progress. Now I am a bit forlorn. Sitting at a roadside, watching the traffic, doing nothing, ruminating a bit, sorting some pebbles in the vicinity, walking a bit here and there. Not knowing what to do nor why.
It feels awkward, after the urge of effort is toned down. But the effortlessness/goallessness is also quite relaxing.
Where do I stand? What was it, that I wanted to achieve? Did I achieve it? Or not? Do I care about that at all? Question floating away and dissolving - unanswered. No need to chase them.
Challenges with family and work do come and go. It irritates and triggers patterned responses. But even getting angry has a funny tone underlying it.
It is hard to exactly come up with words how it is at the moment. It is distanciated, but not indifferent, relaxed, but not without effort, not dull, but without getting caught up in emotion.
I fell back into the normality of life, with all the stuff going on, but I am still sitting there sorting pebbles. In a sense it is exactly as always (thoughts, habits, emotions etc.), but somehow also not as before.
Did I lose something? But what was it? Something changed, but I do not know what. Is that just an illusion? Another state?
How long will this stay? Also not important to have an answer for that.
The world did not explode into miracoulousness. I do my daily stuff. Some good things, some bad, some with joy, others with disklike.
Words showing up at the screen, hands writing. Not sure why I decided to write at all.
Am I confused?

Matthias


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