The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no self separate from conditions that controls and directs what is happening.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am hoping to have an experiential awareness that there is no separate self directing the show. I would like it to go beyond a purely intellectual or cognitive understanding which seems to be where I am at the moment.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be guided by relevant questions which will help me explore my experience in a way that helps me to see that the self is an illusion and keep me on track with my explorations, ensuring that they are helpful.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been interested in this area for many years and particularly like Joan Tollifson.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

Hi tara123. :)

My name is Bananafish, one of the guides here.
I'd be more than glad to help you.


In your intro, you wrote that you want to "go beyond a purely intellectual or
cognitive understanding."


What is it that's hindering your going beyond it?
Anything you have noticed during your search so far?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

Hi Bananafish
Thannk you so much for offering your help.

In your intro, you wrote that you want to "go beyond a purely intellectual or
cognitive understanding."
What is it that's hindering your going beyond it?

I have no idea! I'll try to explain.
I have spent a lot of time over the years on the 'no self' topic. I have been what I would consider 'through the gate' in a real big shift that had me laughing out loud. There followed a different, easier perspective on the world (hard to describe but clear and without doubt) but after a few weeks the old perspective returned.
Since then then it is as though there is occasionally a glimpse of this perspective but also at times a lot of doubt.
Sometimes I see that the thought 'I don't get it' doesn't matter - it is just a thought but recently doubt is increasing and I have a felt sense of a me here looking at the world out there.
So doubt is hindering going beyond in the form of overthinking and identifying with the thoughts. The thoughts are along the lines of 'Perhaps I have just learned the correct answers'.
Also I have a fair bit of physical discomfort which currently seems to be happening to 'me' - or so thought says :)
I'm confused.
x

Hi Bananafish
Just checking that you saw my last post :)
Tara

Hi tara123. :)

Sorry for responding so late ... seems like
the email announcement didn't work well.

Is it ok for us to restart our conversation?

Warm regards,

Bananafish

Sure. Let's do it!

Thanks!

I have spent a lot of time over the years on the 'no self' topic. I have been what I would consider 'through the gate' in a real big shift that had me laughing out loud. There followed a different, easier perspective on the world (hard to describe but clear and without doubt) but after a few weeks the old perspective returned.

Would you tell a bit more about the "easier perspective" and
"old perspective"? What are they?

Also I have a fair bit of physical discomfort which currently seems to be happening to 'me' - or so thought says :)

What makes you feel like the discomfort is happening to 'you'?
Thought only? Or is there any other factor?


Warmly,

Bananafish

Hi

Would you tell a bit more about the "easier perspective" and
"old perspective"? What are they?

'The easier perspective' - Everything is just happening. Even unpleasant experience is not a problem because there is no sense of a 'me' that has to do anything. There is a feeling of ease.
'The old perspective - There is a 'me' that has to do everything - make decisions, think about things endlessly, judge, fix, avoid etc. There is a feeling of stress.

What are they?

If I take this question literally they (the perspectives) are just a different set of experiences eg thoughts and sensations.
From 'The old perspective' the experiences are interpreted as 'me having an unpleasant experience'.

What makes you feel like the discomfort is happening to 'you'?
Thought only? Or is there any other factor?

The body is interpreted as 'me'. The sensations are interpreted as 'happening to me'. The interpretation is just thought but it is believed and continues to feel that I am the body and pain is happening to me.
Looking back at the last sentence I can see that there is just sensation and interpretation (thought) but at the time it feels personal. Also the fact that sometimes in the past it has not felt personal means that I compare the two experiences.
Tara

Hi Tara. :)


Hm ... regarding perspective, it sounds a bit like
you are making yourself believe that everything is OK. Actually,
by being truly honest, please tell whether unpleasant experiences is
a problem for you now.


Also, is there any physical component that makes you actually
feel that there is a self? Where in your body do you feel a separate self?
Could you dive into it and search?


Best wishes,

Bananafish

Good Morning Bananafish

please tell whether unpleasant experiences is
a problem for you now.

Yes unpleasant experience is a problem for me right now because I don’t want to experience it. This morning I want to read but can’t concentrate because I am anxious about something, I want to exercise but can’t because of pain. Right now I can’t meet friends because I’m not getting enough sleep and feel irritable. It feels like the world is going on outside and I am stuck here not able to participate because of unpleasant experience.

Also, is there any physical component that makes you actually
feel that there is a self? Where in your body do you feel a separate self?
Could you dive into it and search?

I can’t find one component. It is the whole sum of physical experience that feels like a self. Although I notice that when sensation is happening around the head and face this feels more like ‘me’ than any other sensations.
What happens is this – This morning when I look there is an unpleasant experience - neck pain accompanied immediately by a mental image as though I am inside the body looking out.
This is also what happens with thought eg I think ‘I am tired’ and there is a mental image of the world from the perspective of a me in here looking out and therefore experiencing the thoughts.
Of course there are lots of thoughts and sensations going on throughout the day that I am not aware of but when I bring awareness to them this is what happens.
I notice that I'm happily typing away here then become aware of it and Bam! that image of the world as seen from inside this body looking out.


Tara x

Hi again, Tara. :)

It feels like the world is going on outside and I am stuck here not able to participate because of unpleasant experience.

It seems like this is your real issue, isn't it?
And are you trying to eradicate them by realizing no self?

Please forgive me if I'm speculating in a wrong way.


In my experience, seeing through the illusion of separate self, is
not always a cure for the above kind of issue.

Instead, there is a possibility that a particular realization will become a
hindrance to facing the unpleasantness and going beyond it, as you can
always long for a certain experience (past or future) to happen,
which is used as a means of avoiding facing the unpleasantness as it is.


You can say "My unpleasantness will disappear when I become realized."
That's rather a form of escape.


But realizing truth is something about seeing reality as it is NOW.
And unpleasantness is there, regardless of whether there is a self or not.


Am I making sense?


The most direct way to go beyond unpleasantness is to face it now,
whether you're "realized" or not.


Would you try doing it?
I'm not sure if I have the best suggestion, but I'm sure I have some.



Warm regards,

Bananafish

Hi Bananafish

It seems like this is your real issue, isn't it?
And are you trying to eradicate them by realizing no self?

I appreciate your input but, no, I am not trying to eradicate unpleasant experience. I know from many years Buddhist practice that this is not achievable.
I would say that my 'real issue' is that a few years ago I could clearly see (in a direct way) that any experience whether pleasant or unpleasant simply happened and that there was no me/I/self to whom it happened. Now, however I seem to no longer have that understanding/perspective and have 'reverted' to feeling as though there is a 'me' here to whom experience is happenning.

I am not trying to escape anything but to see everything clearly once again. Hence the title Just This.
Apologies if I am not explaining it very well.

Tara

Hi tara 123. :)
Sorry for the misunderstanding I had.

Now, however I seem to no longer have that understanding/perspective and have 'reverted' to feeling as though there is a 'me' here to whom experience is happenning.

What is it that makes you regain that understanding?
What does it mean to you to regain it?

Does "feeling as though there is a 'me'" bring any unpleasantness in life?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

Hi Bananafish
I have decided to leave this investigation for the moment and continue with my own reflections.
Thanks very much for your help.
Stay Well
Tara x

Hi Tara. :)

Thanks for letting me know, and no worries at all!
Please come back when you feel like doing so.

Best wishes,

Bananafish