Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

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BeeNee
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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:06 am

Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:21 am

Hi Vivien,
What is it that you are expecting here exactly by saying ‘to have a neutral path to properly change’?
What that neutrality refer to? Having neutral emotions? Turning down the unpleasant sensations?
I think there have been some misunderstandings.
When I say neural, I'm referring to pathways in the brain. Not neutral, or having neutral feelings.
That's why I say I'll never be able to experience the change in brain pathways.
Because I can say very confidently that there is no self, its just an imaginary one in thoughts.
I just want it to be deep. I don't know what that would look like.
The neural pathway stuff is just some science I've been shown by another person.
I just want a really thorough base to stand on to continue forward with different fetter work.
What change do you expect?
I'm actually really good where I'm at, I don't need anything more.
I suppose whats missing is your validation that I've seen through the illusion.
Do you expect that you would change as the result of this inquiry?
No, not anymore.
Do you believe that Ben should change?
No
That Ben should have different feelings, perceptions, emotions, worldviews, or what?
No
Is there a self that could change?
No
What does this desired change should happen TO?
Nothing I can find that any change could occur to.
Do you see that this is a dream on behalf of this imaginary self, wanting to be different, to ‘properly change’?
I suppose, I did expect to have a 'moment' where I could come to you and say 'Its so obvious, I think I'm ready for the final questions' but that's just from having read other peoples threads and having talked to another person about their experience. Which I know is bad. I haven't looked at anything in a while.

Thank You. I hope I've given enough detail.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:53 am

Hi Ben,
That's why I say I'll never be able to experience the change in brain pathways.
What is that neutral brain pathways would be like?
Seriously, how should the brain change into neutral pathways?
Is there such thing?


This ‘neutral pathway’ still sounds to me as getting into a state of neutrality, neutral emotions/experience.

How else could this ‘neutral pathway’ work?

Which pathway should become neutral?

And what is the difference between a neutral and a non-neutral neural pathway?

And how does the brain is experienced?
And how brain pathways experienced?

I suppose whats missing is your validation that I've seen through the illusion.
The validation has to come from you.
You have to have 100% certain that there is no self, other than an imagined one.
I cannot give you this certainty, only you can, by investigating reality.
I suppose, I did expect to have a 'moment' where I could come to you and say 'Its so obvious
Dear Ben, I find your comments very contradictory.

At one hand you are stating:
1 - Because I can say very confidently that there is no self, its just an imaginary one in thoughts.
But then you say:
2 - I suppose, I did expect to have a 'moment' where I could come to you and say 'Its so obvious
Do you see your own contraction here?

Now which one is true, the first or the second statement?

If you can say confidentially that there is no self, just an imagined one, then how could it be not obvious?


One of your statements doesn’t reflect how it actually is.
Confidence can come only from obviousness.
It’s not possible to be confident, without being obvious.

To be honest, it still seems to be that you have some expectations, but you are in not seeing them as expectations.
Otherwise, this controversy of confident vs obvious wouldn’t come up. Also there desire for change to have neutral pathways…

You are missing something here.
You have expectations but you might be in denial.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:06 am

Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:59 am

Hi Vivien,

When I say neural pathway, its nothing to do with neutral. Different things.

This is what I found on google, similar to what I was trying to explain about the change in the brain. The more I look for the illusory self and cant find it the neural pathway holding the belief in the 'I' can weaken and eventually break. This is my understanding, I'm not scientist and probably very wrong lol

Neural pathways, comprised of neurons connected by dendrites, are created in the brain based on our habits and behaviors. ... As patients participate in new activities, they are training their brains to create new neural pathways. The pathways get stronger with repetition until the behavior is the new normal.

It doesn't matter anyhow, because talking about this won't help me towards what I'm supposed to be focused on here.
And how does the brain is experienced?
And how brain pathways experienced?
There is no experience of the brain or the brain pathways.
The validation has to come from you.
You have to have 100% certain that there is no self, other than an imagined one.
I cannot give you this certainty, only you can, by investigating reality.
Yes I can see this. I'm obviously not there yet.
Do you see your own contraction here?
Yes, I can see it appears as that. Sometimes I'm not the best at formulating coherent statements.
Now which one is true, the first or the second statement?
Well both, I'll explain why. I am confident that it's obvious, that it's an illusory imagined self. But I had an expectation that I would come to that conclusion differently. It's been very gradual for me and I expected to have it be not so gradual and really obvious all of a sudden. Not slowly like its happened for me.
If you can say confidentially that there is no self, just an imagined one, then how could it be not obvious?
I said it wasn't obvious because I have a pattern of doubting myself, its very common for me. So I haven't yet felt like I've found that full validation from myself. I couldn't tell you why. I suppose its probably the expectation that it would have been seen differently.

I promise I'm being 100% honest, if I find another expectation I'll be very forth coming with it..

Thank You Vivien, your help is much appreciated.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:41 am

Hi Ben,

Sorry for the late reply.
I promise I'm being 100% honest, if I find another expectation I'll be very forth coming with it..
I appreciate your honestly, it’s very important, so thank you.
Well both, I'll explain why. I am confident that it's obvious, that it's an illusory imagined self. But I had an expectation that I would come to that conclusion differently. It's been very gradual for me and I expected to have it be not so gradual and really obvious all of a sudden. Not slowly like its happened for me.
But this is how it happens for most people. Actually, a sudden big BUMMM! is quite rare. I also had a gradual realization. You have to let go off this expectation, otherwise you might chase a rainbow endlessly.

It cannot be known in advance how it happens for someone. It’s different for everyone. That’s why it’s counterproductive to compare it to others’ experiences. I’m going to be very honest with you, this comparison is utterly useless.

So can you let go off this expectation, and be open to happen for you as it happens, without comparing and judging how it happens?

Can you let it happen as it happens? Or you would like to control it? Is it possible to control it?
I said it wasn't obvious because I have a pattern of doubting myself, its very common for me. So I haven't yet felt like I've found that full validation from myself. I couldn't tell you why. I suppose its probably the expectation that it would have been seen differently.
What I would like you to focus on the following days as often as possible, is to check for the ‘thing’ that is doubting.
When there is a doubt, the illusion of the existence of the Ben-character is taken to be real.

So you have to look every time even when there is just a slightest doubt.
And even when there is no doubt present, still look, and SEARCH for Ben, who/what could doubt it.
Let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
Posts: 41
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:38 am

Hi Vivien,

Do you mind if I take another day or two?
I want to be really confident that I've searched for the doubter enough times.

Thanks,
Ben

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Vivien
Posts: 6990
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:21 am

That's all right, thank you for letting me know. Just be thorough :)

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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