Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:26 am

Hi Ben,

You’ve replied way too quickly, so you didn’t have sufficient time to look at each questions many times (50-100) before replying. Looking and seeing no-self is not a one-time event.

Looking is about constant repetition. Looking for the same thing again and again, at least 50 times a day or more.
But everyone says that there is a really obvious shift. What does that shift look like? Its a widely talked about thing, sounds like a shared experience amongst LU Gatecrashers.
In that book there is a specific selection of guiding threads, which is not a clear representation how it happens to everyone. For many people there isn’t one single clear shift, rather it’s a gradual and repeated small recognition of how things are.

So that’s why I asked you at the beginning to stop reading anything, since those provides the fertile soil for comparison. It cannot be known in advance how the shift will be. Whether there will be just one clear one, or several small ones. So please don’t expect any fireworks :)
Thoughts say "It can't happen to a sensation, sound, taste, image or thought"
But it doesn’t matter what thoughts say. Not at all.
The only thing that matters is what can be seen/experienced directly WITHOUT any thought interpretation.
No believer I can find, thoughts say "believing is only a concept in thoughts"
Again, it doesn’t matter what the thoughts are about… what they say…
We are not relying on thoughts, not even expecting the thoughts to change (what they say, how they say it)
Since it’s not about thoughts. But about experience.

Just because you cannot find the self, it doesn’t mean that you can stop searching for it.

This whole inquiry is about repeatedly looking looking and looking and not find.
This repeated looking and not finding will bring about the realization.

So, I’m going to give you the same questions again. But this time spend a whole day looking again and again. And don’t just look in a certain designated time, but look throughout the day, in the midst of everyday happenings (even if just for 10-30 seconds each).

And what does seeing through the self happen TO?

Believing? And WHAT is it that believes in those words?

There cannot be a believing without a believer. So you have to find it.
Where is it? Where?


Also please list to me the places where you looked for the believer.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:19 am

Hi Vivien,

Sorry for my unexplained absence over March.
I would like to continue if you're happy to still help me?

I think I struggle because I haven't been able to create a consistent habit to look 50-100 times a day. Looking naturally occurs throughout the day often, mainly when random thoughts arise and I investigate their claim. I have tried writing your questions on my hand so I can refer to them when I notice them throughout the day.
Another thing I find difficult is where you want me looking, I don't know where there is to look. When my eyes are shut its just black, I don't have thought pictures. For example if someone said look for the 'self' in your foot. I wouldn't have a thought image of my foot. Just blackness.
I don't know if the thought images are essential for looking?
And what does seeing through the self happen TO?
Nothing, but theres nothing to qualify that. When I look, theres just sounds, sensations ad thoughts that arise. I don't do anything when I'm looking, other than notice these things and notice whats absent.
Believing? And WHAT is it that believes in those words?
Nothing I can find, thoughts arise that claim to believe something. That's stuck in thoughts, nothing I can find that would have anything to do with the concept of believing outside of thoughts arising.
There cannot be a believing without a believer. So you have to find it.
Where is it? Where?
I need help with where to look sorry. I understand this must be frustrating. I do try.
Also please list to me the places where you looked for the believer.
When I'm told to look this is exactly what I do-
1. I ask myself your question e.g 'Where is the Believer?'
2. Shut my eyes, sometimes repeat the question (I'm very forgetful)
3. Then I'll notice sounds, sensations, tastes, smells etc
4. Again I'll ask, 'Is that the believer'
5. A thought will arise saying for example 'No, that's just a sensation'

I'll do that multiple times..

Thank you so much!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:00 am

Hi Ben,
I would like to continue if you're happy to still help me?
Yes, as long as you are really committed to go along with this inquiry.
I have tried writing your questions on my hand so I can refer to them when I notice them throughout the day.
Yes, that’s a good idea. You can also use post-its, and stick them to places where you often look.
Another thing I find difficult is where you want me looking, I don't know where there is to look. When my eyes are shut its just black, I don't have thought pictures. For example if someone said look for the 'self' in your foot. I wouldn't have a thought image of my foot. Just blackness.
I think there is a misunderstanding here. With looking, we don’t just mean looking with the eyes, or looking at any images, or visual thoughts. Rather think of looking as searching. So replace the word looking with searching.

So when you look for the self in your foot, then you have to search through your foot. But not just visually, but more importantly by FEELING. The sense of self usually appears as a feeling, as a sensation.

So you have to search for any sensations in the body, which feels like a self/me.
And when you’ve found that sensation, then you investigate what makes the particular sensation into a self/me.
When I'm told to look this is exactly what I do-
1. I ask myself your question e.g 'Where is the Believer?'
2. Shut my eyes, sometimes repeat the question (I'm very forgetful)
3. Then I'll notice sounds, sensations, tastes, smells etc
4. Again I'll ask, 'Is that the believer'
5. A thought will arise saying for example 'No, that's just a sensation'
Thank you for describing how you do the looking/searching. It’s useful, since I can comment on how to do it differently.

After you ask the question (1) don’t just wait passively for the believer to arise, rather actively search through the entirety of experience for the believer. So search for any sensations that seems to be the believer. Look into thoughts to see if you can find a believer there.

So looking is not a passive thing, rather an active search. I hope it helps.

So, let’s try this out.

Does it feel like that you are inside the body (probably somewhere inside the head), looking out through the eyes, and observing/seeing the word out there?

Look at an object. It can be anything.

And while you are looking at it, find the exact location where to looking is happening FROM.
Localize it with millimetre/quart of an inch precision.
When you’ve found the exact spot, then investigate what is actually experienced there.

Where is this location exactly?

And what do you find at that location?

Do you find anything else there than sensations?

FEEL whatever sensations are there.

As you feeling those sensations, do you FEEL an I there?

Do you FEEL a looker there, who sees the object out there?


Please repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:23 am

Hi Vivien,
Does it feel like that you are inside the body (probably somewhere inside the head), looking out through the eyes, and observing/seeing the word out there?
I don't feel like this all the time, I have periods when I don't have much sense of a 'me' present. I know what sensations are here when I'm feeling really 'me', its a sensation on the crown of my head, that wraps almost from ear to ear, it can feel quite fuzzy and heavy, those are the times when the most negative thoughts are present. I don't know if this is what you wanted, but this is what I've identified as the sense of 'me'
Where is this location exactly?
I can't find a location. There is only image.
And what do you find at that location?
No location.
Do you find anything else there than sensations?
I have sensations around the back of the head. They are the only consistent sensations on my head. Nothing else there.
As you feeling those sensations, do you FEEL an I there?
No I, just a sensation.
Do you FEEL a looker there, who sees the object out there?
I feel the sensations on the back of the head and then image. I'd say the head sensations give a sense of a location.

A bit of confusion came up doing this looking, quite a struggle.

Thank You!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:55 am

Hi Ben,
B: its a sensation on the crown of my head, that wraps almost from ear to ear, it can feel quite fuzzy and heavy, those are the times when the most negative thoughts are present. I don't know if this is what you wanted, but this is what I've identified as the sense of 'me'
V: Where is this location exactly?
B: I can't find a location. There is only image.
Please read your above comments carefully.

You are describing the location of the sensation that is taken to be the sense of me, but in your next comment you are saying that there is no location.

But you describe the location “on the crown of my head, that wraps almost from ear to ear”.

So this sensation is the one you have to stay with, and FEEL it as often as possible, while investigating WHAT MAKES that sensation into a me.

So, as of feel the crown of the head, what makes this sensation into a me?

HOW do you know that this sensation is you?

Move the attention back and forth between the sensation of your feet and the sensation of the crown of the head. What is the difference between the two experientially (meaning by feeling them)?

How do you know that the sensation of the crown of the head = you?

Where does this information coming from experientially?

Does the sensation itself suggest that “it’s me”?

If not, what is suggesting that?
A bit of confusion came up doing this looking, quite a struggle.
What is the struggle about?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:04 pm

Hi Vivien,
You are describing the location of the sensation that is taken to be the sense of me, but in your next comment you are saying that there is no location.
Yes, I have identified the sensation that is taken to be the sense of me, but the sensation I was saying I couldn't locate was the sensation of looking. Maybe I'm trying to find something else, whereas I should just we staying with the sense of me sensation around the crown of my head.
What is the struggle about?
I was just really looking and looking for the sensation of looking and I couldn't find anything.
So, as of feel the crown of the head, what makes this sensation into a me?
In direct experience there is no extra property to this 'me' phenomenon lol, other than sensation.
I've taken it as that, because as the sensation varies in intensity, my mood seem to slowly shift worse or better. I can see that the sensation is one thing and the thought are another. There is no action that the sensation can do to directly effect my mood, its just a sensation. I need to keep watching this as my mood naturally gets better and worse.
HOW do you know that this sensation is you?
Thought interpretation suggests that, when I ignore that and check. There is nothing more than a sensation there.
Move the attention back and forth between the sensation of your feet and the sensation of the crown of the head. What is the difference between the two experientially (meaning by feeling them)?
In direct experience they are both just sensation, they seem to suggest a different position in space. But when I look at that, the claim is just a thought. The head sensation doesn't have an extra property that would make it a 'me', they're both just sensation.
How do you know that the sensation of the crown of the head = you?
Only through what thoughts tell me do I think its whats been taken as a me, in direct experience there is nothing suggesting a sensation = me. A sensation can't disguise itself as anything other than a sensation.
Where does this information coming from experientially?
The information only comes through thought.
Does the sensation itself suggest that “it’s me”?
No, the sensation can't assert itself as 'me', nothing more than a sensation.
If not, what is suggesting that?
Only thoughts suggest that's what it is, there are different conclusions as to why its taken as the 'me' sensation. When I check those, its nothing more than varying intensity of sensation.

Thank You

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:35 am

Hi Ben,
In direct experience there is no extra property to this 'me' phenomenon lol, other than sensation.
I've taken it as that, because as the sensation varies in intensity, my mood seem to slowly shift worse or better. I can see that the sensation is one thing and the thought are another. There is no action that the sensation can do to directly effect my mood, its just a sensation.
But even if there were a connection between the sensation and the mood, would that mean that that sensation is a sense of self?
Where is the proof?

Only through what thoughts tell me do
So thoughts are talking to you?

WHERE is this me that thoughts are talking to?

FIND the ME that is listening to thoughts. WHERE is it?


Very important that you actively search for the me.
A sensation can't disguise itself as anything other than a sensation.
Exactly.
But is this just a logical conclusion, or you see it experientially that a sensation is just a sensation nothing more?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:24 am

Hi Vivien,
But even if there were a connection between the sensation and the mood, would that mean that that sensation is a sense of self?
Where is the proof?
looked and in actual experience all I can find is a sensation.
So thoughts are talking to you?
No, just arising and fading. Different words and phrases pass, no preempting what will come next, it just happens.
WHERE is this me that thoughts are talking to?
When I look for whats there instead of whats not there, I realise how simple experience is, I can't find a 'me'. Sensations are often prevalent, some thoughts pass by, sounds are sometimes noticed... no 'me'
FIND the ME that is listening to thoughts. WHERE is it?
There is no doubt that thoughts arise and fade, but I cannot locate where the experiencer of those thoughts are. Nothing I can find outside of the 5 senses. No 'me'. These experiences are happening without any explanation, I suppose there will never be one lol
But is this just a logical conclusion, or you see it experientially that a sensation is just a sensation nothing more?
When I look, it definitely is experiential.

Thank you!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:36 am

Hi Ben,
When I look for whats there instead of whats not there, I realise how simple experience is, I can't find a 'me'. Sensations are often prevalent, some thoughts pass by, sounds are sometimes noticed... no 'me'
Yes, reality is very simple. Much more simple than we THINK. All complication is coming from thoughts.
There is no doubt that thoughts arise and fade, but I cannot locate where the experiencer of those thoughts are. Nothing I can find outside of the 5 senses. No 'me'. These experiences are happening without any explanation, I suppose there will never be one lol
:) So which one feels to be truer:

- the self/I cannot be found experientially
Or
- there is no real, inherent self, only an imagined one?


Be careful not to think with this questions, but really look.
V: But is this just a logical conclusion, or you see it experientially that a sensation is just a sensation nothing more?
B: When I look, it definitely is experiential.
So when looking happens there is no self, but when looking is not happening there is a self/I?
Does the self/I is something that can be turned on an off?
Can it come in and out of existence?


Again, don’t think but check this in reality.

And what is doing the looking? What looks for the I/self?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:15 am

Hi Vivien,
:) So which one feels to be truer:

- the self/I cannot be found experientially
Or
- there is no real, inherent self, only an imagined one?
There is no real, inherent self, only an imagined one.
So when looking happens there is no self, but when looking is not happening there is a self/I?
Does the self/I is something that can be turned on an off?
Can it come in and out of existence?
In actual experience there is no self. But throughout daily living the appearance of being a person navigating is still here.
Lots of differences, sensations are noticed and seen as sensations automatically, there isn't the story.
I see people that are very identified, talking on and on about their story. It seems very odd to me now, quite foreign.
And what is doing the looking? What looks for the I/self?
In actual experience there is no one looking, it just happens. There isn't a decision made to look, it just starts.

Thanks.

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:17 am

Hi Ben,
In actual experience there is no self. But throughout daily living the appearance of being a person navigating is still here.
Do you expect that the appearance of being a person should stop as the result of this inquiry?

Please really look into what kind of expectations you have.

What do you expect to happen?
Do you expect that your everyday life should change? That the illusion of Ben as a person should stop appearing?
Or what else do you expect?

Do you expect different emotions? Perhaps no or less negative or unpleasant emotions and experiences, and more positive/pleasant ones?

How do you imagine, how seeing through the self should be like, and feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:48 pm

Hi Vivien,
Do you expect that the appearance of being a person should stop as the result of this inquiry?
No, not at all.
What do you expect to happen?
I expect to have a moment where I realise something that seems so obvious.
Do you expect that your everyday life should change? That the illusion of Ben as a person should stop appearing?
No
Or what else do you expect?
I think it may be a matter of looking to find nothing over and over again. I don't really know what it should look like to see through the illusion, it already seems very obvious.
Do you expect different emotions? Perhaps no or less negative or unpleasant emotions and experiences, and more positive/pleasant ones?
No, its all part of the flow.
How do you imagine, how seeing through the self should be like, and feel like?
Like an Aha! moment. It'll seem obvious beyond any doubt.

There has already been big changes, I can't imagine what life was like beforehand. Its a new reality now in many ways. I find I don't react, I'm calmer in the face of an uncomfortable situation. I can't really describe it, it's just different.

Thank you!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:35 am

Hi Ben,
There has already been big changes, I can't imagine what life was like beforehand. Its a new reality now in many ways. I find I don't react, I'm calmer in the face of an uncomfortable situation. I can't really describe it, it's just different.
That’s great! :)
I think it may be a matter of looking to find nothing over and over again. I don't really know what it should look like to see through the illusion, it already seems very obvious.
Are you saying that it’s already very obvious that there is no self in reality, just an imagined one in thinking?
I expect to have a moment where I realise something that seems so obvious.
Isn’t it already obvious that the self is just an imagined character, and not a real one?

What makes you think that it hasn’t been seen yet?

Is there ANY doubt whatsoever that the self is fictional?
If yes, then please talk about it.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:35 am

Hi Vivien,

I've taken some time to really find any expectations or doubts.
Are you saying that it’s already very obvious that there is no self in reality, just an imagined one in thinking?
Yes! this is the conclusion that is always evident when I look. That makes it sound like I have doubt about the notion of the Self being only something imagined in thinking. But this is very clear.
Isn’t it already obvious that the self is just an imagined character, and not a real one?
Yes.
What makes you think that it hasn’t been seen yet?
I've been told that there is a moment when the pin drops so to speak and its all of a sudden obvious beyond doubt. I wouldn't say I had a moment like this.
Saying this, before I came on LU a friend who was quite far along on this process did some direct pointing with me and made me really look and look. It was on the same night that I was introduced to this stuff. There were a lot of aha moment that night.
Is there ANY doubt whatsoever that the self is fictional?
If yes, then please talk about it.
Not a doubt, but I do doubt whether I've been thorough enough for a neural path way to properly have changed.
I won't ever be able to experience the neural pathway obviously. But I think I should probably spend more time looking for the non-existent 'I' and not finding it.

Thank You!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:55 am

Hi Ben,
I've been told that there is a moment when the pin drops so to speak and its all of a sudden obvious beyond doubt. I wouldn't say I had a moment like this.
First, there is an expectation that seeing through the self should happen in a certain way, and then what is actually happening is being tested against this expectation with a conclusion that ‘this is not it’.

So you are saying that there is no doubt that the self is just imaginary, but you negate this since you have a belief how this should happen, based on others’ stories. That’s why I ask at the beginning to stop reading anything about this topic, since it’s just fuels more expectation. But you’ve already arrived with an expectation how this should happen. Thus you cannot accept how it ACTUALLY happens.
Not a doubt, but I do doubt whether I've been thorough enough for a neural path way to properly have changed.
I won't ever be able to experience the neural pathway obviously.
So you don't have doubts, but you want to get something out of this! You want to achieve something.
And since that 'proper change' you are after hasn't happened, you deem it "It's not it".
Since you have a belief how it should be... you believe that certain things should change.
And this is a HUGE and UNREALISTIC expectation.

What is it that you are expecting here exactly by saying ‘to have a neutral path to properly change’?
What that neutrality refer to? Having neutral emotions? Turning down the unpleasant sensations?

What change do you expect?
Do you expect that you would change as the result of this inquiry?
Do you believe that Ben should change?
That Ben should have different feelings, perceptions, emotions, worldviews, or what?

Is there a self that could change?

What does this desired change should happen TO?

Do you see that this is a dream on behalf of this imaginary self, wanting to be different, to ‘properly change’?


You’ve said it several times that you don’t have expectations, but you clearly have, and BIG ones.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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