Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:13 am

Hi Vivien,
Do you see that your above comment is just an intellectual reasoning, but not the reality of experience?
Yes.
Can you actually observe as thoughts are literally prompting energy in the body?
No, just thoughts about the energy prompting the body to move. No AE of that happening. I took what I thought as fact lol.
Can the energy being observed as literally making the body move?
No, it's even simpler. Energy or not its all impartial and the body just moves.
What is this energy exactly? Is this something else than a sensation?
No, just sensations.
When thoughts of pros and cons are coming up, are you doing that?
No, it's not as if there is a planner coming up with the pros and cons to list. Just more thoughts free floating and pros and cons may sometimes end up being listed. There can't be a prediction of thoughts, as its all just more thoughts.
What is it that is thinking thought thoughts?
Nothing thinking it, just more thoughts.
What makes those thoughts to appear?
Nothing, thoughts may arise claiming they are personal or "my" thoughts, but guess what.. no experience of personal outside of the thought that claims something to be 'personal'.
Can the thought of ‘sweet’ be actually tasted?
No, its a label for a flavor of taste. No experience of the label.
Can the thought of ‘hot’ be actually felt?
Also no experience of 'hot', just the label for another flavour of sensation.

Thank You!!!!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:00 am

Hi Ben,

I’m going to give you only one question this time. Please look very thoroughly again and again, many times before replying.
I took what I thought as fact lol.
What is it EXACTLY that can take a thought as fact?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:50 pm

Hi Vivien,
What is it EXACTLY that can take a thought as fact?
Nothing, another thought arose saying 'I just took that as fact'. There was nothing I could find that can take a thought as fact.

Thanks,
Ben :-)

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 am

Hi Ben,
Nothing, another thought arose saying 'I just took that as fact'. There was nothing I could find that can take a thought as fact.
Is this clearly seen EXPERIENTIALLY without any doubt, or is it rather an intellectual understanding?

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just happen on automatic?

Is there anything, anything at all that isn’t on automatic?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:19 am

Hi Vivien,
Is this clearly seen EXPERIENTIALLY without any doubt, or is it rather an intellectual understanding?
Well... I look over and over again, just to find nothing, not ever! Just sensations and sounds are the most prominent. So where is the thing that takes something as fact, nowhere that can be found. There are so many narratives that go on in thoughts, but automatically I'm starting to look at those when they're arising and they never cease to be just thoughts.. like intention, facts are just a concept in thoughts.
It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.
There are patterns that the body inherently knows, but theirs know one that knows it, for example I don't have to think about how to walk or wash up, the body just automatically navigates doing these things. Thoughts will arise about the task, sometimes an 'I' involved, sometimes not.. never the less just thoughts.
Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just happen on automatic?
Automatic, I notice this more and more. I'll be doing things and a thought will arise saying 'how did I end up here' or 'there is definitely no 'I' lol'
Is there anything, anything at all that isn’t on automatic?
No.

Thank you endlessly!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:53 am

Hi Ben,

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:12 pm

Hi Vivien,

If it's alright I'm going to spend a day or two looking at these questions so I can really see if I find any doubts, I just want to be very very clear.

Is that alright with you?

Thanks,
Ben :-)

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:18 pm

Of course, be thorough :)

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:30 pm

Hi Vivien,

The power went out last night. So my reply is slightly later than I wanted it to be, sorry.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Yes. There is still the appearance of choice, but that is an illusion within itself. I can see that there is no chooser clearly. Often a thought will arise about a choice and then an action will follow, I can see that they aren't connected. There is also a layer deeper, being the initial thought about a 'choice' also just arises without anyone conjuring it or creating it. It's all a flow in experience.
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
Once again there is the appearance of control (within thoughts, as in.. 'I'm going to get a drink', just a thought that arises and an action that seemingly follows, but isn't actually connected. But I can see there is no choice or free will.

Thanks,
Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:31 am

Hi Ben,
The power went out last night. So my reply is slightly later than I wanted it to be, sorry.
No problem.

Please do the following exercise many times during the day.

When the I/self (like as an I-thought) asserts itself, examine:

1. Where in experience is the self?
2. Where did the self come from?
3. How is this self known?
4. Can a self be found?
5. Where is the self located?
6. How does this self show itself?
7. Describe the sensations that seem to be the self.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:48 pm

Hi Vivien,

Took a while on this one. 100% transparency, the desire to look doesn't arise all that often at the moment. I still really really appreciate this and definitely want to continue.
When I was introduced by a friend to direct pointing and LU, I had only ever watched Non-Duality videos, so direct pointing was completely new to me. She didn't just explain it to me, she asked me the questions and made me look, I think I had a big aha! moment that day. It was so clear. So I'm wondering if I saw through quite a bit of the illusion then, I seems very obvious to me.
It feels a bit wrong to jump to that conclusion, not that it is a conclusion as I know there is more to go.
Anyway...
Maybe I'm just making all that up though, I think there is a wanting for this to be over, so there is a validating that I achieved this. But who's going to achieve this? Is it only the illusory self that wants to achieve this?
1. Where in experience is the self?
Just within the contents of a thought. Really only in a few words ('I' referencing vocabulary) and sometimes a really vague thought picture of my body in memories or thoughts of the future.
2. Where did the self come from?
In the instance of an 'I' thought, there's no place the self comes from. Just arises out of nowhere. It's obvious that responses in the form of thoughts are just conditioned patterns of language. Because they just arise without anyone thinking them. And the 'I thought them' thought is just another flavor of conditioned language.
3. How is this self known?
It's not known. Although within a thought about a 'self' or blurry thought picture of a 'Ben' it seems as though its known, but whats there to be known, nothing, just thoughts to be seen. Seen by who? I don't know. The experience happens to this body, I can see color, no seer to see it. Just color.
4. Can a self be found?
No, just a thought about a self.
5. Where is the self located?
No location.
6. How does this self show itself?
It can't show itself, its only a collection of words that describe something we've all been taught. And it doesn't exist.
7. Describe the sensations that seem to be the self.
I know sensations aren't the self, but I have noticed when I'm feeling 'bad' and I thoughts arise about the bad feeling its often a blurry sensation around the crown of my head.

Thank You!!!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:07 am

Hi Ben,
Took a while on this one. 100% transparency, the desire to look doesn't arise all that often at the moment. I still really really appreciate this and definitely want to continue.
Do you say that seeking has stopped?
Maybe I'm just making all that up though, I think there is a wanting for this to be over, so there is a validating that I achieved this. But who's going to achieve this? Is it only the illusory self that wants to achieve this?
These are excellent questions, so let’s look into this.

Look for the one, who or what could achieve seeing through the self. What is it?
And what does seeing through the self happen TO?
What does wanting belongs TO in experience?

In the instance of an 'I' thought, there's no place the self comes from. Just arises out of nowhere. It's obvious that responses in the form of thoughts are just conditioned patterns of language.
Can you say with 100% certainty that the self is nothing else than the words of I/me/my/mine?
Is there anything else to the self than these words?
just thoughts to be seen. Seen by who? I don't know.
Look for the seer. Find it. Localize it.
Where is the exact location where thoughts are seen from?
And what is it exactly at this location?
The experience happens to this body, I can see color, no seer to see it. Just color.
If you put aside all learned intellectual knowledge, HOW do you know that experience is happening to the body?

What is the experience of a body?

I know sensations aren't the self, but I have noticed when I'm feeling 'bad' and I thoughts arise about the bad feeling its often a blurry sensation around the crown of my head.
Please sit with this sensation of the crown of your head.

What does it felt there exactly?
Can a self be felt there?
Is there an agency there?
Is this the location where seeing thoughts happening FROM?
What is there exactly?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:52 pm

Hi Vivien,
Do you say that seeking has stopped?
To a certain degree I would say seeking has stopped, because the nature of this process seems very simple now. There's nothing to seek and find, because there is no self to find.
But I wouldn't say there is a difference yet, other than I have more tools for seeing experience in its reality.
Look for the one, who or what could achieve seeing through the self. What is it?
I suppose I imagine thoughts changing from 'is the self real, can I find it' to an undoubted 'no, 'I' as a separate individual has never existed'
But its all just thought play I suppose
And what does seeing through the self happen TO?
There will be a dissolving of a belief for this organism. This organism not being a 'me' but a spontaneous vessel for this current experience.
What does wanting belongs TO in experience?
No one. There's no wanter, just wanting flavored thoughts.
Can you say with 100% certainty that the self is nothing else than the words of I/me/my/mine?
No, It's a believing of those words and an implication that theres an AE of those words.
Is there anything else to the self than these words?
A belief in a lot of different nuanced things, like certain sensations and a believing the thought story of me is real. But I don't think the illusion of the separate self would be perpetuated without the words I/me/my/mine being learnt.
Where is the exact location where thoughts are seen from?
I honestly don't know.
What is the experience of a body?
The experience of the body is the image when you look at it and sensations. Taste, sound and smell also happen to the body. But we experience each of those things in their raw form and just label it as the 'body'.

Please sit with this sensation of the crown of your head.
What does it felt there exactly?
Just a blurry sensation.
Can a self be felt there?
No, just the sensation
Is there an agency there?
No, just the sensation
Is this the location where seeing thoughts happening FROM?
No. It's labelled as on the head. Intellectually I know cognitive processes happen in the head. But I can't experience those. The sensation is purely a sensation.
What is there exactly?
Just a sensation

Thank You!!!

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:04 am

Hi Ben,
But I wouldn't say there is a difference yet, other than I have more tools for seeing experience in its reality.
What difference do you expect?
V: Look for the one, who or what could achieve seeing through the self. What is it?
B: I suppose I imagine thoughts changing from 'is the self real, can I find it' to an undoubted 'no, 'I' as a separate individual has never existed'
But its all just thought play I suppose
You didn’t look! You’ve just made assumptions, which is thinking.
Ben, every single question I give you is a pointer for you where to LOOK.
So, don’t think about the answers, don’t suppose… rather LOOK.

So here is the question again, but this time, don’t make assumptions, but actually search for this ‘one’.

Look for the one, who or what could achieve seeing through the self. What is it?
V: And what does seeing through the self happen TO?
B: There will be a dissolving of a belief for this organism. This organism not being a 'me' but a spontaneous vessel for this current experience.
Again, you didn’t look, you just wrote about your THOUGHTS of this topic.
I never ask about your opinion, never.
I ask you to LOOK and SEARCH FOR the one that seeing through the self could happen to.
I LITERALLY ask you to SEARCH, and NOT to think or write down your opinion.

And what does seeing through the self happen TO?
V: What does wanting belongs TO in experience?
B: No one. There's no wanter, just wanting flavored thoughts.
Can you ACTUALLY SEE that there is no one that experience belong to, or you just have an intellectual understanding of this?
V: Can you say with 100% certainty that the self is nothing else than the words of I/me/my/mine?
B: No, It's a believing of those words and an implication that theres an AE of those words.
Believing? And WHAT is it that believes in those words?

Again, don’t thing! Search for the one that is supposedly believing in thoughts.

There cannot be a believing without a believer. So you have to find it.
Where is it? Where?


A belief in a lot of different nuanced things, like certain sensations and a believing the thought story of me is real. But I don't think the illusion of the separate self would be perpetuated without the words I/me/my/mine being learnt.
You are thinking again, and not looking. I don’t ask you to think.

You are going in rounds and rounds, since you are just THINKING about the answers, instead of looking at experience directly.
This is a dead end.
V: Where is the exact location where thoughts are seen from?
B: I honestly don't know.
Why don’t you look? Why do you just think about these questions?

You might think that you look, but you don’t. You don’t. You are answering these questions as if this were an exam. You are trying to give the ‘right’ answers.

But ‘right’ answers are useless with this investigation.
Since your answers have to come from looking at experience, and not analysing or theorizing it, or learning the right answers.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivien as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:51 am

Hi Vivien,

No more right answers!! Fingers crossed
What difference do you expect?
I expect that there will no longer be any doubt that there is no separate individual.
That's all I'm looking for here at Liberation Unleashed. I don't care to have an experience and I know that's nothing to do with what happens here.
But everyone says that there is a really obvious shift. What does that shift look like? Its a widely talked about thing, sounds like a shared experience amongst LU Gatecrashers.
Look for the one, who or what could achieve seeing through the self. What is it?
Its nothing, I couldn't find anything. When I look all that's here are breathing sensations, the sensation of a breeze coming through the window across my skin, various thoughts pass by, the sensation of the computer on my lap, the sensation of the feet on the couch, Sounds coming from my brothers various activities
And what does seeing through the self happen TO?
When I look.. thoughts pictures of the nose and eyes, sensation of my fingers pressed against my eyeballs,sensations of breathing, thought picture of the chests breathing movements, sensation in the nose,taste of saliva, sound of James Blunts Bonfire heart played by my brother LOL
Thoughts say "It can't happen to a sensation, sound, taste, image or thought"
Can you ACTUALLY SEE that there is no one that experience belong to, or you just have an intellectual understanding of this?
It was a thought that I just wrote down. I looked and can't find anything it would belong to.
Believing? And WHAT is it that believes in those words?
There cannot be a believing without a believer. So you have to find it.
Where is it? Where?
When I looked, there was.. a sensation in my chest, a vague foggy red image behind my eyelids, thought picture of my hands touching each other, sensation of a sighing breath, a thought saying 'a sighing breath', thought image of my cheek pressed against my shoulder, sensation on the right side of my tummy etc..
No believer I can find, thoughts say "believing is only a concept in thoughts"

You're truly amazing for doing this and helping so many people.
Thank you!


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