Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:51 am

And how do they do it exactly? Can you OBSERVE the PROCESS (literally) as a thought and a sensation CREATING the feeling of happiness?
I haven't been able to fully create a feeling of happiness, I tried to do it with annoyance and just saw a thought picture of a time that I was annoyed at my mum. But I didn't actually feel annoyed again. I'm struggling to create an emotion.
I did it again but with frustration, I can't observe
Sorry I didn't finish the end of this reply..
I did it again but with frustration, I can't observe any process literally creating the feeling of frustration. It just arises.

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:40 am

Hi Ben,
But the thinking and voice feels like a familiar Ben identity.
What is the difference between ‘thinking/thought’ and the ‘voice’?

Ben identity? What’s that? How does a ‘Ben identity’ is experience exactly?
Is it a sound? Image/color? Smell? Taste? Sensation? Thought?

And what is an identity anyway?


You are not allowed to give any intellectual answer :) please don’t give a definition of identity. Rather describe it through experience. And not through thought stories.
I've just realized that when I've got my eyes shut looking, I've been seeing a vague thought picture of my face.
Nice looking :)
asked 'where's Ben' and my attention automatically went to a sensation in the back of my head.
So is the back of the head the physical location where the self/me resides?

Can you pin point its exact location with millimetre/quarter of an inch precision?

What is experienced EXACTLY at the back of the head?
But there still feels like a Ben-ness mainly in the voice saying the thoughts.
So are you saying that there are two separate things going on…
- thoughts
- and the voice saying the thoughts?

Are you sure about that? Are you sure that there are two things going on? Thoughts + voice?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:36 pm

Hi Vivien,
What is the difference between ‘thinking/thought’ and the ‘voice’?
There's no difference between 'thinking/thought' and 'internal voice', the internal voice is just a thought.
Ben identity? What’s that?
It's just a thought.
How does a ‘Ben identity’ is experience exactly
Is it a sound? Image/color? Smell? Taste? Sensation? Thought?
Ben identity can't be experienced as anything other than a thought.
And what is an identity anyway?
An identity can't be experienced as anything other that a thought.
So is the back of the head the physical location where the self/me resides?
I can feel a sensation back there and can see a thought picture of the back of my head. No self/me there.
Can you pin point its exact location with millimetre/quarter of an inch precision?
No, nothing there other than a sensation.
What is experienced EXACTLY at the back of the head?
Just sensation, not even the thought picture of the back of my head is experienced there.
So are you saying that there are two separate things going on…
- thoughts
- and the voice saying the thoughts?
No, the voice is the thought.
Are you sure about that? Are you sure that there are two things going on? Thoughts + voice?
There are voice thoughts and thought picture thoughts.

Feeling a bit clearer now..

Thank you so much Ben.

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:55 pm

Hi Ben,
Just sensation, not even the thought picture of the back of my head is experienced there.
Great looking.

So where does thoughts appear?
Is there any physical location where thoughts appear?

There are voice thoughts and thought picture thoughts.
Yes. So thoughts mainly appear in two forms:

- verbal or auditory (words)
- pictorial or visual (images).

Observe these in your daily life:

Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you chose them?
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?


Please set a timer for 10 minutes. The task is to think EXCLUSIVELY pleasant thoughts for the whole duration. Not a single negative thought, and not even a neutral one. But 100% positive. If you are the thinker/creator of thoughts, this should be the easiest thing to do :)

Let me how it goes.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:19 pm

Hi Vivien,
So where does thoughts appear?
They just appear.
Is there any physical location where thoughts appear?
No, not a specific place that I can find. Feels as though it's in the general head area, but no specific place.
Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you chose them?
Yes, but they also just appear.
Why do you have them if you have control over thoughts?
They just appear and dissolve, without any control.
If thoughts can be thought or created, why not make it so that only pleasant thoughts are thought?
They just appeared and I didn't have control over what type of thoughts they were.
If you had any control over thoughts, why don’t you just stop choosing unhappy or negative thoughts?
Unhappy and negative thoughts still appeared and dissolved, just as the other thoughts did.
If you were the thinker of thoughts, wouldn’t it be the easiest thing to think whatever you like, and not think what you don’t like?
Yes it would be, but that wasn't the case for me. Thoughts just appeared of all types.

I did realise that it was hard to distinguish between neutral and pleasant thoughts, they felt fairly similar. Although negative ones still felt uncomfortable.

THANK YOU!
Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:28 am

Hi Ben,
V: Is there any physical location where thoughts appear?
B: No, not a specific place that I can find. Feels as though it's in the general head area, but no specific place.
The everyday belief is that thoughts appear in the head. But we have to check this belief to tests its validity.

You say: “it FEELS as thoughts it’s in the general head area”. – So HOW does it FELT that thoughts appear in the head?

What kind of FEELING is it?

Can a thought be FELT?

Dive deep into this FEELING and tell me everything about it.
I did realise that it was hard to distinguish between neutral and pleasant thoughts, they felt fairly similar. Although negative ones still felt uncomfortable.
So are you saying that a thought can be FELT? Are you sure about that?

And did you do the exercise I asked you in my previous post? Whether or not, please do it again 10 minutes with a timer, and let me know what you find.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:13 am

Hi Vivien,

This looking was very confusing and I'm still not hugely clear on it.
You say: “it FEELS as thoughts it’s in the general head area”. – So HOW does it FELT that thoughts appear in the head?
There are sensations in the head that can be felt, but the thought can't be felt.
There are sensations around the back of my head, I tried looking at a thought picture of my foot, it felt as though my eyes were seeing the thought picture of the foot, but I realised that there was the thought picture of the foot and the sensation of my eyes.
What kind of FEELING is it?
I could feel that there are whole bunch of sensations in my head, I could see that the sensations weren't the thoughts.
Can a thought be FELT?
No.
Dive deep into this FEELING and tell me everything about it.
I can feel the sensations in my head and then I just assume that the thoughts reside there, but the thought can't be felt only the sensation.
So are you saying that a thought can be FELT? Are you sure about that?
I can't feel the thought, but the attention is with the sensation in the head, I then assume that the thoughts play out in the head.
And did you do the exercise I asked you in my previous post? Whether or not, please do it again 10 minutes with a timer, and let me know what you find.
Sorry. I did this exercise again, the thoughts were all over the place, negative, positive and neutral. I didn't create them, they just arose and dissolved.

Thanks, Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:13 am

Hi Ben,
I can feel the sensations in my head and then I just assume that the thoughts reside there, but the thought can't be felt only the sensation.
Yes, and this is an important discovery.
Please look at this more, to be 100% certain whether a thought can felt or not.

So can ANY thought be felt? Any at all?
Or only sensations can be felt?

So can it be known experientially that thoughts come FROM or appear IN the head?
Is there any experiential proof for this?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:18 am

Hi Vivien,
So can ANY thought be felt? Any at all?
No. A thought can sometimes prompts a sensation to arise.
Or only sensations can be felt?
Yes, only sensations.
So can it be known experientially that thoughts come FROM or appear IN the head?
I can see experientially that thoughts don't come from or arise in the head (as in I can't find a place), but intellectually I still wouldn't say they arise anywhere else. I wouldn't say I know they aren't arising in the head. I still have a belief that they arise in the head. I know this all probably sounds ridiculous because in actual experience I can never find where the thought arises from exactly, but I sure as hell wouldn't say there's any thinking happening in my foot, or in any other part of my body other than in my head. Saying this when I look, there's no specific place I can pin point where the narration is coming from in my head.
Is there any experiential proof for this?
No experiential proof.

Thanks,
Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:28 am

Hi Ben,

Could you please tell me how much time do you spend with each questions I give you before replying?

How quickly do you post a reply after reading my questions and comments?

Do you spend a WHOLE day, looking at each question again and again and again and again… (50-100 times a day) before replying?
I can see experientially that thoughts don't come from or arise in the head (as in I can't find a place), but intellectually I still wouldn't say they arise anywhere else.
But we are not interested in what you BELIEVE IN.
We are investigating REALITY AS IT IS.
The FACTS of REALITY.
Not your BELIEF ABOUT reality.
I wouldn't say I know they aren't arising in the head.
What other proof do you need other than SEEING in EXPERIENCE that thoughts are not arising in the head?

If it’s not convincing enough, then it means that you are not looking DEEP enough.
So you have to look more!

So look more.

If you say that you still believe that thoughts arise in the head, then you have to prove it!
So prove it to me.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:09 pm

Hi Vivien,
Could you please tell me how much time do you spend with each questions I give you before replying?
Usually I look at all of the questions within an hour.
How quickly do you post a reply after reading my questions and comments?
After an hour.
Do you spend a WHOLE day, looking at each question again and again and again and again… (50-100 times a day) before replying?
No, I will take this suggestion on board and look more thoroughly.
What other proof do you need other than SEEING in EXPERIENCE that thoughts are not arising in the head?
I was taking the 'head' as the vague thought picture of my head and the sensations around my skull. The thought picture of my 'head' is also a thought, therefore not real and the sensations are just sensations.
If you say that you still believe that thoughts arise in the head, then you have to prove it!
So prove it to me.
No more proof needed. It was only when I asked the question 'do thoughts arise in the head?' that I was getting a vague thought picture of the 'head' and feeling sensations around the skull. The response was always along the lines of 'yes, they arise in the head' and some other reasoning. Which was another thought. But I can now see that the thought picture of the 'head' isn't the 'head'. I cannot pin point a specific place where thoughts arise.

Thank you, I will try looking for longer periods of time now.
Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:22 am

Hi Ben,
No, I will take this suggestion on board and look more thoroughly.
It’s essential to look as many times as possible, and not just for an hour. And more importantly to look in the midst of everyday life.
The response was always along the lines of 'yes, they arise in the head' and some other reasoning.
And how does the respond come? In a form of thought? Because if it comes in a form of thought, then it’s not a looking. Looking happens when ALL THOUGHTS ARE COMPLETELY IGNORED. And what is left is the experience of the 5 senses.
Here is an exercise for you.

Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a car.

How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is it your doing?
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a car to appear?
How do you make that happen?

Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?

If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?

Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the car to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand your doing?

Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:22 am

Hi Vivien,
Thank you so much for your dedication so far, it is much appreciated!
How does the visual thought of a car arrive? Is it your doing?

No, it just arose.
What do you do EXACTLY for an image of a car to appear?
Nothing, it just appeared.
How do you make that happen?
I didn’t, the image would shift and there was no control over how it came up or left and what image it was.
Is there a storage place somewhere hidden where all the visual thoughts of cars are stored, and you go there and you choose and pick which one do you want to think of?
There’s no storage place that I can experience. The thought picture just arises.
If not, how does that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared? What do you do EXACTLY to make that happen?
I’m not sure, the car just appears. The thought picture was sometimes of different cars, they arose just the same.
Are you the chooser of the color?
What do you do EXACTLY to the car to be a certain color?
Do you make the color to happen?

And what about its size and brand? Is the size and the brand your doing?
Often a similar thought picture would arise of a red car, of a certain shape. But there was no choosing of the thought image, it appeared and would evolve into a different thought image, or dissolve altogether.
Can you observe a mind, or an I, or a self creating the image of a car?
No, the image just appears. There’s no process I could observe. Sometimes thoughts would come up about it, but they are just a thought.

I also noticed other thought images that arose out of nowhere and I couldn’t see a process of them arising. They also just appeared.

Thank you,
Ben

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Vivien
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Re: Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

Postby Vivien » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:46 am

Hi Ben,
Thank you so much for your dedication so far, it is much appreciated!
You are welcome :)

Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Look at this several times before replying.
Let me know what you find.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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BeeNee
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Re: Requesting Vivien as a guide :-)

Postby BeeNee » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:54 am

Hi Vivien,
Let me know what you find.
This was a nice exercise, it was interesting how the orchestra of experience doesn't stop, when thoughts about it aren't present. The thoughts aren't separate from it and the experience always continues. The thoughts could be quite cloudy and arise a lot in some moments making it harder for sensations, sound, smell and taste to be experienced. But they never weren't there.

I've read back over my own thread and can see how I was responding through thoughts a lot of the time. It's very simple when you strip it down to what can be experienced, if it isn't sensation, sound, smell, taste or image, it must be thinking. I understand this better now. I think why I've been struggling is because I start looking with your question in mind, and all though looking is happening its often thoughts about my reply which will inevitably end up as 'intellectualizing' because the actually looking hasn't taken place. I've seen the thoughts and believed their contents.

I can see clearer now that the appearance of thoughts arising in the head can be clearly broken down into sensations in the head, a black image and a thought that arises, remarking 'thoughts arise in the head' - that is whats experienced, not thoughts actually arising in the head.

Thank you endlessly,
Ben.


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