Requesting Vivian as a guide :-)

[BeeNee]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
What I understand by this is help in illuminating where the illusion of the ‘self’ resides in language and sensation.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for a full and non intellectual realisation of no ‘self’. I want to relax into what’s already here. Quite honestly I just want to see the truth, in the past it’s been exhausting wearing Non-Duality and scrambling to find and feel answers. I just want simplicity.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
My only expectation is to see clearly through the illusion of the separate self and possibly learn some tools to take into daily living. I want to learn to question myself throughout the day and see the truth of what is clearly.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’m 18 and was only introduced to Non-Duality 5 months ago. The friend who put me onto this journey has been helpful in giving explanations and showing me resources on this topic, hence why in here. All I’ve done so far is watch Non-Duality videos on YouTube and read other people’s threads on this site. The teachers I’ve listened to are Lisa Cairns, Roger Castillo and Tony Parsons.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed, and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.
The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?


Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
What is incomplete right now?

Vivien

[BeeNee]

Hi Vivian,
Thank you so much for being my guide, I'm very excited to begin!

Can we agree on these?

Yes, 100% :-)

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?

I'm looking for a really clear understanding and knowing, that when the illusion off the 'separate self' arises, all that it is, is just that, an illusion.
My life wouldn't change much, other than a relaxation in the moments when I go to tell a story or believe a thought.
I'm also looking to stop suffering with expectations of the future. The past comes up less and less for me now, but most of my thoughts that arise are about the future and I go on to tell a story about it. I can see that they are just thoughts and not the direct experience, but a voice comes up and sometimes says, why don't we indulge in this story just for a bit. Ridiculous!

What are you hoping for?

I'm hoping for a clear knowing that the 'self' is an illusion. Hopefully then I'll be left with all the conditioning that resides in the body and I can start to work through some of that.

What do you want to happen?

I want to see my experience for what it is and hopefully have some relaxation in knowing the truth.

What is incomplete right now?

Nothing, other than the story I tell myself that isn't real and will never be real.

I'm looking forward to where we go from here.. :-)

Thank You :-)
Ben

[Vivien]

Hi Ben,

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I'm looking for a really clear understanding and knowing, that when the illusion off the 'separate self' arises, all that it is, is just that, an illusion.

There is a hidden expectation in this, wanting or expecting to see the self-illusion 24/7.

Is this what you expect? To see it 24/7, every single time when it arises?
Or is it OK to sometimes dive into the story and taking the self as if it were real?

My life wouldn't change much, other than a relaxation in the moments when I go to tell a story or believe a thought.

Oh, so you believe that there is a you who is telling a story and believes thoughts?

I'm also looking to stop suffering with expectations of the future

This is a HUGE and unrealistic expectation.

Why would suffering stop? What makes you think that suffering should stop as soon as the self illusion is seen through?

Not wanting to suffer means that there is a desire that just half of the emotions should appear, only the pleasant one. But all the unpleasant emotions and feeling should stop.

Being human means that we feel ALL spectrum of emotions, including the unpleasant one. And only just a self would want to avoid these.

Most of the suffering is the result of conditionings and physiological problems and traumas. But these don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

The past comes up less and less for me now, but most of my thoughts that arise are about the future and I go on to tell a story about it.

So you expect that thoughts should change?
Why would they?

There is ALREADY no self there (regardless it’s seen or not), so why would thoughts or emotions change just because this fact is recognized?

I can see that they are just thoughts and not the direct experience, but a voice comes up and sometimes says, why don't we indulge in this story just for a bit.

So you believe that there is a you outside of thoughts to which these thoughts are talking to?

Hopefully then I'll be left with all the conditioning that resides in the body and I can start to work through some of that.
And because of this, suffering won’t stop. Unpleasant emotions won’t stop. Seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning, and the falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism, until death.

I want to relax into what’s already here.

This expectation is based on the belief that there is a me/self which could relax into what’s already here.

But what if there is no me/self, nothing at all, which could relax into anything?

Please ponder on these questions to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

All I’ve done so far is watch Non-Duality videos on YouTube and read other people’s threads on this site. The teachers I’ve listened to are Lisa Cairns, Roger Castillo and Tony Parsons.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Vivien

[BeeNee]

Hi Vivien, (sorry I have been spelling your name wrong)
Thank You for your reply! :-)

Is this what you expect? To see it 24/7, every single time when it arises?

I suppose that was an expectation. I just figured that once this process is started, it doesn't stop. But there's no reason why the illusion of the separate 'self' will always be seen as an illusion, because thoughts are free floating and there is no 'I' that can control these thoughts.

Or is it OK to sometimes dive into the story and taking the self as if it were real?

Yes, it could be helpful for navagating in daily living.

Oh, so you believe that there is a you who is telling a story and believes thoughts?

No 'you', just thoughts that arise and string together to create a story. Believing thoughts will sometimes happen in the experience.

Why would suffering stop? What makes you think that suffering should stop as soon as the self illusion is seen through?

Suffering won't stop. It just wont feel as though its a me, that the suffering is happening to. I suppose I thought suffering only took place when you were believing thoughts with a character called 'I' in them. I thought without the illusion it would just be pain in the moment that belonged to no one, that its just free floating. But just because you see through the illusion, doesn't mean thoughts of the past and future won't arise and they may not always be seen for what they are.

So you expect that thoughts should change?

Thoughts won't change, they'll just be seen as thoughts.

Why would they?

They wouldn't, because they are free floating and there is no one to control them.

There is ALREADY no self there (regardless it’s seen or not), so why would thoughts or emotions change just because this fact is recognized?

They won't change, thoughts belong and are created by no one. They have always been free floating and will remain that way.

So you believe that there is a you outside of thoughts to which these thoughts are talking to?

No, the 'you' outside of thoughts that makes a statement, it's also just a thought.

But what if there is no me/self, nothing at all, which could relax into anything?

There is no 'me' that could relax. Relaxation may or may not happen in the actual experience.

Can we agree on these?

Yes 100%

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

No resistance, this is awesome!

I hope you're safe with the devastating fires in Australia at the moment. Very Scary.

Thanks,
Ben

[Vivien]

Hi Ben,

I can see that you have lots of intellectual knowledge about this topic, but my question is, can you actually SEE in experience what you know intellectually?

For example:

But there's no reason why the illusion of the separate 'self' will always be seen as an illusion, because thoughts are free floating and there is no 'I' that can control these thoughts.

Can you actually SEE in experience that thoughts are free floating and there is no ‘I’ controlling thoughts, or is this rather just an intellectual understanding?

No 'you', just thoughts that arise and string together to create a story.

Can you see in experience that there is no I/me, that there are only thoughts arising as a story? Or is this rather an intellectual knowledge you’ve learned?

Thoughts won't change, they'll just be seen as thoughts.

But this is the same belief as seeing the illusion 24/7 for what it is. Thoughts won’t be seen as thoughts all the time.

They won't change, thoughts belong and are created by no one. They have always been free floating and will remain that way.

Can you see that thoughts don’t belong to a me and created by a me?

No, the 'you' outside of thoughts that makes a statement, it's also just a thought.

Can you REALLY see this?

There is no 'me' that could relax. Relaxation may or may not happen in the actual experience.

Can you actually SEE that there is no ‘me’ to relax?

They wouldn't, because they are free floating and there is no one to control them.

I assume that this is just an intellectual understanding, otherwise why would you be here. So, it’s very-very important that you write ONLY what you can ACTUALLY SEE EXPERIENTIALLY, and NOT what you understand intellectually. This is what I mean to be 100% honest. To write only what you can actually see, and not what you understand.

Since intellectual understanding has no value in this inquire. Nothing at all. Actually, it’s in the way of seeing what is actually happening.

Intellectual understanding can be a hindrance. Since if I ALREADY KNOW, then I don’t look, since I already know the answer.

Can we agree that you will write only what you can actually see experientially?

I hope you're safe with the devastating fires in Australia at the moment.

I’m fine. I live an area where there are less fires.

Vivien

[BeeNee]

Hi Vivien,

A lot of resistance and frustration this time lol
I actually went storming around the house saying 'why cant I understand this, I'm so frustrated' then I realized it was just a whole bunch of sensations in my body and a thought saying 'why cant I understand this, I'm so frustrated'
I was believing the contents of the thought.

Can you actually SEE in experience that thoughts are free floating and there is no ‘I’ controlling thoughts, or is this rather just an intellectual understanding?

I suppose it was just an intellectual understanding. In AE its just thoughts that say 'thoughts are free floating' and 'there is no 'I' controlling thoughts.

Can you see in experience that there is no I/me, that there are only thoughts arising as a story? Or is this rather an intellectual knowledge you’ve learned?

Yes, just intellectual knowledge. I didn't properly look the time before. But I do think I can see it's just thoughts in AE. Am I getting this wrong? I do think that I can sometimes see in AE that its just thoughts sometimes. Maybe it's a belief that theirs no self and I didn't look last time.

Can you see that thoughts don’t belong to a me and created by a me?

When I looked a thought came up saying 'there's no me in the first place' which is just an intellectual knowing I suppose and in AE its just a thought.

Can you REALLY see this?

I think I see glimpses of this. Sometimes there are moments when its really obvious, there is no 'self'. Like, I can identify that its a feeling between my eyes and a thought that labels it as 'me'. Or when my eyes are shut and I ask 'where is the I' i see a vague thought picture of my body.
All of which are thoughts or sensations in AE.
I suppose I'm not looking deep enough in AE and still relying on intellectual knowledge.
I'm a bit confused as to how real some of the realizations are, that I've had etc
I'm trying to look, but I'm a bit ADHD and have a very short attention span so it can be difficult at first.
I need to look over and over again so it's clearer and doesn't become a jumble every time.

Can you actually SEE that there is no ‘me’ to relax?

Not clearly yet.

Can we agree that you will write only what you can actually see experientially?

Yes, I will always try my hardest. Otherwise I'd just be wasting your time.

Thank you so much :-)
Ben

[Vivien]

Hi Ben,

We are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

Don’t rush with the reply. Take a WHOLE DAY to look at these questions again and again, even when the answer seems to be clear.

Vivien

[BeeNee]

Hi Vivien,

Can you trace a thought back to where it came?

No.

In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?

No.

Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?

No. After looking over and over again it became very clear there was no ability to tell where thoughts come from and go to.
I noticed thoughts were often prompted by sounds or sensations, and said something about them, or labelled them. But I can see that's not where they come from.

Many thanks,
Ben.

[Vivien]

Hi Ben,

You did a nice looking.

Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
What is making thoughts to appear?
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Vivien

[BeeNee]

Hi Vivien,

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

I found that it was another thought that prompted the 'created' one to appear.

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

Yes. You cant hang onto one thought, they pass or fade and another one appears.

What is making thoughts to appear?

I couldn't find what makes them appear. They were prompted by thoughts that were already there, but that's not what made them.

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

No, you can't prevent a thought that's already there.

Thank you, I'm excited to see where we go next..
Ben

[Vivien]

Hi Ben,

They were prompted by thoughts that were already there, but that's not what made them.

HOW do you know that certain thoughts are prompted by other thoughts?
Can you ACTUALLY SEE in experience as one thought is prompting another thought?

Think of something that makes you happy.

Is there a Ben creating that emotion?
Is there a thought creating that emotion?
Or an image creating it?
What is creating it?

Is there a Ben feeling happy?
Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?
How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?

Don’t rush with the answers, look very thoroughly REPEATEDLY many times before replying.

Vivien

[BeeNee]

Hi Vivien,

HOW do you know that certain thoughts are prompted by other thoughts?

It's another thought that says 'they were prompted by each other'. Just more thoughts in AE

Can you ACTUALLY SEE in experience as one thought is prompting another thought?

No, I can't see an action of 'prompting'. Just more thoughts.

Is there a Ben creating that emotion?

The action of sitting down with the intention of creating an emotion, felt like it was a person doing it.
But I could see It was just a thought and a sensation in my face.

Is there a thought creating that emotion?

After I had been looking for a while I had just been having thoughts that didn't elicit a visceral feeling of happiness, that I would call an emotion. Then a thought arose that said 'I just don't find thoughts funny' which then made me smile lol. That was a thought and sensation in my face. Which I would call happiness.

Or an image creating it?

No.

What is creating it?

Thoughts and a sensation in my face.

Is there a Ben feeling happy?

No, just thoughts and sensations

Did the experience of happiness last, or some other feeling came up after some time?

No. It didn't last, it faded and other thoughts came up.

How did this change happen, did you choose another thought to make the happiness change to something else?

No, it just happened.

Thanks, Ben

[Vivien]

Hi Ben,

The action of sitting down with the intention of creating an emotion, felt like it was a person doing it.

Please repeat the exercise and describe me the FEELING of ‘it was a person doing it’.
What is the EXACT FEELING of ‘a person creating the emotion’?

But I could see It was just a thought and a sensation in my face.

So are you saying that you can SEE it EXPERIENTIALLY that there is NO Ben whatsoever, who would create the emotion?
Or is this rather an intellectual understanding?

V: What is creating it?

B: Thoughts and a sensation in my face.

So are you saying that thoughts and sensation are creating the feeling of happiness?

And how do they do it exactly? Can you OBSERVE the PROCESS (literally) as a thought and a sensation CREATING the feeling of happiness?

V: Is there a Ben feeling happy?

B: No, just thoughts and sensations

Can you clearly see in experience that there is NO Ben feeling happy?

Because if you do, then you must have already seen through the illusion of the self.
OR
You are not 100% honest with your replies, since I asked you to write only about what you can clearly SEE EXPERIENTIALLY, and NOT what you understand INTELLECTUALLY.

You might find my words a bit harsh or blunt, but we have to be very open and honest with each other.
And what I’m seeing from your replies is that you LEARNED the ‘RIGHT’ ANSWERS, just as when you learn something new in a school. But I’m not convinced that you ACTUALLY SEE in EXPERIENCE what you’ve learned.

It’s very important that you FORGET EVERYTHING you’ve ever learned from this topic.
To become a clean slate.
Like a child, who doesn’t know or have any intellectual knowledge about things.

Vivien

[BeeNee]

Hi Vivien,

Sorry I didn't realize I was thinking. I have lots and lots of thoughts that feel like they're clouding the looking and AE.

What is the EXACT FEELING of ‘a person creating the emotion’?

My response saying, 'The action of sitting down with the intention of creating an emotion, felt like it was a person doing it' Was not so much a feeling, but seeing a thought picture of grabbing the laptop, sitting down on the couch to write my replies.

So are you saying that you can SEE it EXPERIENTIALLY that there is NO Ben whatsoever, who would create the emotion?
Or is this rather an intellectual understanding?

I can see that there are just thoughts, sensations, sound, taste, image. But the thinking and voice feels like a familiar Ben identity.
I've just realized that when I've got my eyes shut looking, I've been seeing a vague thought picture of my face.

So are you saying that thoughts and sensation are creating the feeling of happiness?

No, they aren't creating it. They are the feeling of happiness. (I did it with frustration though)

And how do they do it exactly? Can you OBSERVE the PROCESS (literally) as a thought and a sensation CREATING the feeling of happiness?

I haven't been able to fully create a feeling of happiness, I tried to do it with annoyance and just saw a thought picture of a time that I was annoyed at my mum. But I didn't actually feel annoyed again. I'm struggling to create an emotion.
I did it again but with frustration, I can't observe

Can you clearly see in experience that there is NO Ben feeling happy?

I asked 'where's Ben' and my attention automatically went to a sensation in the back of my head. But there still feels like a Ben-ness mainly in the voice saying the thoughts.

Thanks, Ben