I feel that I am real

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Ashman247
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I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:58 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That what I understand to be myself is an ego. It as an idea and it is not who I really am. The person I call ‘’me” is false and is the cause of all my suffering . Ultimately the person I think I am does not exist. This is something I have heard and understand in the mind but have not fully realised this.

What are you looking for at LU?
Someone to help guide me through a dialogue to be able to see that the self doesn’t exist. I would like to be able to ask questions about myself and reality which I feel keep me wedded to illusion. I would like to be able to ask questions about the nature of myself and have someone give another perspective.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Someone who can answer the deepest questions I have about myself. For example why is it that I can very much feel a sense of “I” if I don’t exist. This does not shift or lesson. I have had glimpses of insight of no self mainly when I just awaken from sleep, but this never lasts. I also experience this in meditation but it doesn’t last. My conception of myself is too strong for me to really believe I do not exist.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been a seeker for a long time. I come from a Christian background and have also experience with Zen Transcendental meditation, mystical Christianity, Buddhist Meditation, The Work if Byron Katie, Tony Parsons, Adyashanti, Headlessness, Mooji, Gangaji, Papaji and others. I practise self enquiry regularly.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Skygazer74
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Skygazer74 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:36 pm

Hello Ashman,

Would you like me to call you Ashman or something else? Thanks for your patience and for your answers, if you are still seeking a guide I would be happy to help. A few bits of housekeeping first:

At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please.
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?



Best wishes,

Nic

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Ashman247
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:31 pm

Hi Nic,

Many thanks for your response. I have read the terms and conditions and am happy to proceed. My real name is Damian btw and I am happy for you to call me Damian.

I’ve answered these questions below

How will Life change?

If I’m honest I believe that the presence and belief of a personal Identity causes my suffering and so by seeing it is not real I will end all suffering. This mainly means any sort of searching or subtle forms of unhappiness or dissatisfaction. I do believe I will be a lot happier when I finally see it.

How will you change?

I think I will be happier and feel free. I think that life will be easier for me to deal with and I will just be able to handle anything that comes my way.


What will be different?

Everything - I think that fundamentally my day to day life might look the same but I will be completely different inside. Freer happier and lighter . My relationships will improve and I will feel less anxious.

What is missing

Missing from my life at the moment? Complete peace of mind and the end of all suffering which is something that seems to elude me.

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Skygazer74
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Skygazer74 » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:38 pm

Hi Damian,

Nice to meet you.

This process may not end all suffering, but for many it certainly helps. Honestly, expectations can get in the way of looking, so it would be a good idea to let go of any expectations as we dive in. As it says in the disclaimer, anything can happen, and it may be that after the gate there is more to do.

All we do here is point out how and where the separate self seems to be created, and show you that it doesn't exist.

If I was to say to you now - there is no self at all, and never was, can you please let me know what comes up for you? What objections, feelings, sensations, thoughts?
Ultimately the person I think I am does not exist. This is something I have heard and understand in the mind but have not fully realised this.
Yes, so what is preventing the realisation - do you have any intuitions?

Please use the quote function as it will really help later when things get more complex, thank you.

Best wishes,

Nic

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Ashman247
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:39 am

If I was to say to you now - there is no self at all, and never was, can you please let me know what comes up for you? What objections, feelings, sensations, thoughts?
Intellectually i think I get it. I’ve been reading and following another guided conversation in real time on this site and sometimes when the participant doesn’t seem to see what the question is pointing to I feel like I get that there is no self at all. However my main objection is that I am conscious I can hear smell taste touch, and so there must be a self .

As much as it could be said that this is life just happening there seems to be a “Damian” to whom life happens.

Also I have been taught that God is the Self ultimately and so the idea of no self doesn’t work for me. There must be a personality or something observing this/. This instinctively doesn’t feel like ‘life just happening’. It seems as if there is a self here.
Yes, so what is preventing the realisation - do you have any intuitions
This is what I think is preventing the realisation I feel like a self! It feels as if a self is perceiving this all.

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Skygazer74
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:33 am

Hi Damian,
Intellectually i think I get it. I’ve been reading and following another guided conversation in real time on this site and sometimes when the participant doesn’t seem to see what the question is pointing to I feel like I get that there is no self at all. However my main objection is that I am conscious I can hear smell taste touch, and so there must be a self .
Yes, there is a difference between intellectually getting it and it being a lived experience. We will start, since you mention it, with the sensing, but first I would like to do an exercise with you that helps to show the difference between what is known with the intellect and what is found in direct experience (DE)

In a way, it is simple. Lets say we want to know about the weather right now, we can either try and work it out, look it up online, or we can open the window and look. Another example to point to the difference is this - we are wearing socks, and cannot remember what colour socks they are. So we can either try and remember, try to retrace our steps, visualise getting out of the shower and getting dressed, or of course we can simply look.

This may sound simple, but when it comes to our experience, so often it is experienced in thought, or filtered through assumptions and ideas.

Try this exercise:

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

http://www.maryshomestead.com/sitebuild ... /fruit.gif

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?


Have a go at this and let me know how you get on, and please try to remember that it is not like a test, the intellect can want to answer these and bypass the looking. However, for this enquiry, it is the looking that is the key and not the intellect so please bear with me, be patient, and do the looking, thank you.

Best wishes,

Nic

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Ashman247
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:19 pm

Hi Nic,

I did the exercise with a ‘real’ apple.

This is the part I dont seem to agree with;
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
I can see the apple it is there it is not a thought. I can touch it and taste it so I would say yes an apple can be found in actual experience . Are you saying the sense descriptors of an apple (taste, smell etc) is not the actual apple?

So I can know the descriptors but not the actual apple?

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Skygazer74
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:50 pm

Hi Damian,

Yes something is there, but can you see that ‘apple’ is a concept, a label. What is there beyond labels and concepts?

Best wishes,

Nic

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Ashman247
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:01 pm

Yes something is there, but can you see that ‘apple’ is a concept, a label. What is there beyond labels and concepts?
So in essence you are saying that an apple does not exist beyond the concept or label of it ? So the concept or label of it points to nothing?

I would say beyond the label is an “essence” of an apple but I couldn’t define what that is!

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Ashman247
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:02 pm

Or are you saying that there is taste of an apple , smell of an apple, touch of an apple, but beyond the word “apple” there is no apple itself?

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Skygazer74
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:42 pm

I’m not saying anything about the apple, I’m asking you to look and see what you can experience directly, to point to the difference between what is known by thought and what is known in direct experience :)

Try the exercise, it’s not a debate about semiotics or existence, it’s a pointing. What can you know directly from looking at the apple?

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Ashman247
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:16 pm

What can you know directly from looking at the apple?
From looking at it directly. I can know it’s is green and red, it is round, I can see it’s shape and texture. I can smell it and also touch it.

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Skygazer74
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:23 pm

Great, and do you feel clear about the difference between what’s known by thought and DE?

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Ashman247
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Ashman247 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:25 pm

Yes I am clear I think ! So I’m direct experience I can know colour shape smell touch etc.

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Skygazer74
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Re: I feel that I am real

Postby Skygazer74 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:24 pm

Yes, kind of, I want to look at this before we proceed as it is so important for this enquiry.

Here is another way in:

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

Give it some time

Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience (DE).

Let me know how you find this please :)


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