Just need a little push...

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Delma
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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:42 pm

Hi Eli,

"Yes!! It's like it's pulling itself up by its own boots. So the trick is to just keep following the I? Until it doesn't have any support anymore? Wear it out?"

Eli. You tell me. Where else can you look for it? Very real question here. Where else is there to look?

"The feeling is that they're my arms and hands, that they belong to me. They're my tools, and I use them to do things I want to get done. The hands move and it feels like it's me doing it. But it also feels like they're part of me. In case of the body, there's no feeling thet the arms and hands belong to the body. It just doesn't come up that the body can own anything. I'm in charge here. The body has no say, it has to listen too. The arms and hands are just attached to the body."

Are you sure this is true? "The feeling is that they're my arms and hands, that they belong to me." <- This is what is learned, yes. But where is the "my", the "me"? Look for it!

"The mind indicates the I is more likely to be the brain itself. That's the bit that thinks and controls, so it must be me. Yesterday it indicated I could be a little gland somewhere in the brain. But then I wouldn't be the body. The body would be something else, and I'd be pulling the levers and pushing the buttons. Which feels really weird. Because that'd mean I LOOK like a little gland, I AM a little gland, hideous and gland looking."

This right here is one of the better inquiries. If your gland is removed, are you removed? Exactly where is the ME, I? Look!

You're pretty much dancing around the obvious, I'm afraid. A circular reference trying to look at itself. Can you find more than that?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby pfWrep5ph9 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:57 am

Eli. You tell me. Where else can you look for it? Very real question here. Where else is there to look?

This question... There's an image of a dark space inside this head, where thoughts bubble up from a deep and mysterious mind. I imagined it as being a big structure that only shows parts of itself and I'd have to battle those parts as they present themselves. That too is unverified by the senses. There's no dark space. There's nothing 'under the surface'. There's just thoughts appearing now and then. And feelings. And images of dark and daunting tasks for the 'me'.

Is it me against the mighty mind? Me is not outside of mind. The idea's there in the same space as the image of the dark void hiding all the beliefs.

No, there's nowhere else to look. There's thoughts, feelings, and senses. Senses can verify reality, thoughts and feelings are learned and need to be tested with the senses.

Are you sure this is true? "The feeling is that they're my arms and hands, that they belong to me." <- This is what is learned, yes. But where is the "my", the "me"? Look for it!

I'm not sure it's true. I'm sure it's not true. But the feeling remains, so I described what I observed including the feeling, what it seems like, despite seeing no evidence. I look, there's no 'my' or 'me'. Arms and hands aren't owned by anything. Ownership and belonging can't be seen with the senses, so they are just ideas. Contracts are thoughts on paper, and it's the best we've got. The word body describes a form that can include arms as 'parts', and that's the only way I see arms belonging to bodies. Not in a subordinate sense. Just in the sense of calling things by a name so we can talk. The body does not belong to I because both belonging and I are ideas. Body is real.

This right here is one of the better inquiries. If your gland is removed, are you removed? Exactly where is the ME, I? Look!

Now it says the key thing is that the lights stay on, that there's awareness. Cut off limbs, I stays. Take out lungs and heart, put brain in a vat on life support, I stays. Take out gland or any part, I stays, albeit it might be harder to do math. So I is awareness + something that fills it with content like a somewhat functioning mind? What then if mind loses access to memory and starts producing Russian thoughts, would I still be I? Mind says no, I wouldn't be me anymore. OK, so content matters, specifically thoughts need to be consistent. But they come and go. When I'm in deep sleep, where is I then? After waking up, it doesn't feel like I went anywhere.

You're pretty much dancing around the obvious, I'm afraid. A circular reference trying to look at itself. Can you find more than that?

I'll go bang my head against the wall. Will have to write more tomorrow. Thank you for being patient and sticking with me.

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:53 pm

Too much thinking, my friend!

I could review it point by point, but then we will fall into debate. That is what the self does.

Here's your next inquiry:

Is the self in the mind?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby pfWrep5ph9 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:13 pm

Too much thinking, my friend!

Gotcha :)

I could review it point by point, but then we will fall into debate. That is what the self does.

Yes, this self really wants to debate right now. Never mind. I'll do my best to avoid deviating from inquiry and direct looking as I understand it in the next one. If it's still seen as too much thinking, I'd like to ask to elaborate, because then it's clearly too fuzzy for me still. Unless that'd be counterproductive of course.

Is the self in the mind?

What's seen of the mind are feelings and thoughts. These are labeled as products of the mind. Some feelings and thoughts are about the self. Asking the mind where is the self, there's a labeling of parts of the real world (experienced with the senses), like the body, as the self. Ignoring this labeling, nothing indicates a self in the real world. Just a body is seen.

The mind is not seen directly, no self is seen directly. Thoughts and feelings about self are seen, no self is seen with the senses. Can't say what's in the mind. The idea of self, the sensation of self, depends entirely on the mind. If the mind goes, any sign of the self goes. In this way, the self is in the mind.

Lots of dissonance and conflicting thoughts of course.

I'm imagining you hitting me with a zen stick the whole time though these exercises. "Too much thinking!". Stuck again.

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby pfWrep5ph9 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:44 pm

Think I just realized something I've been saying in a few posts now but didn't really get.

It really is JUST a feeling and a bunch of thoughts. There isn't ANYTHING more than that to it.

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:15 am

Great!

Where do thoughts come from?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:17 am

Wait. What I mean is, what is there location? From where do they originate?

Where do they "exist"?

Where do they go when they are gone?

Give me locations and not concepts, imaginings, or ideas. Factual stuff. Practical. No guessing!

Thanks, Eli!!
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby pfWrep5ph9 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:10 pm

Hey Delma,

Where do thoughts come from?
what is there location? From where do they originate?

As in, where are they warehoused? Where do they come out of? Can't know that. They simply appear out of nothing. Like a wave grows out of a flat ocean.

Where do they "exist"?

In awareness. They appear to be in the center of this perceived space.

Where do they go when they are gone?

Nowhere. They cease to exist. When trying to think of a thought that's passed, all that's seen is a different thought. Same flavor.

Sincerely looked. Without reasoning, there's not that much to say.



I wanted to ask, if not counterproductive. When people here talk of the mind labeling, that does not necessarily mean it yells out labels in the form of thoughts when looking at things, right? To me it looks like a quiet recognition. Looking at my hand, there's a familiarity for it being a hand, as well as it being me. My hand moves and there's that quiet recognition of it being 'me moving my hand'. Is that what's meant when saying 'the mind labels'?

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:22 pm

Hi Eli,

With regard to where thoughts come from, yes, I mean exactly where are they before they appear? Have you looked at that? Would you call it, "nowhere"? Isn't that kind of strange?

Where do they exist? Is it true that they are "in awareness"? Where does awareness come from? Can its location be identified? Isn't it odd that this strangeness is never questioned?

And if the self is within thought, or mind, and thought can't be located, where exactly would the self be?

Yes. The mind labels. It happens reflexively for any learned labels. The longer we've used the label, the more quickly it comes. And I'll bet you can inquire to find out what one of the oldest, most familiar labels is
... yep. The "I".

The entire question and the only question worth exploring is whether there is truly anything that the word labels.

By the way,
Where is the mind?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby pfWrep5ph9 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:09 pm

Hey Delma, just checking in today. Sat and looked and thought and wrote some excellent answers, and then saw they all reek of too much thinking and too much ignoring what's right in front of my nose. I'll be back tomorrow. Have a nice day :)

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:20 am

Sure thing. I appreciate your sticking with this.

Keep going!

Delma
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby pfWrep5ph9 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:49 pm

Hey Delma, thanks for your patience :)

With regard to where thoughts come from, yes, I mean exactly where are they before they appear? Have you looked at that? Would you call it, "nowhere"? Isn't that kind of strange?

Where do they exist? Is it true that they are "in awareness"?

Here and now, there's awareness, definitely and factually. And all sorts of flavors of appearances in that awareness. Are appearances and awareness separate things? There's just this aware space. Anyway. Take this laptop. There's the assumption that there's an actual laptop-shaped object in objective reality making itself known by casting an appearance onto this awareness. That assumption's learned. But there's the appearance of a laptop, and whatever its source, whatever creates the appearance is outside of awareness, no idea.

With thought. It just goes nothing, thought, nothing. I wouldn't say they are "nowhere". Like when talking, it goes silence, speech, silence. Where's a sentence before it's spoken? I'd say thought is the 'appeared form' of something else, unknown. It comes from 'outside'. Sticking to looking, not thinking. Yes, they just appear out of nowhere. It's a voice or an image, coming out of nowhere, that only I can observe, that nobody else can confirm is there, and it's got the label 'mine' on it. And that belief has held all my life. It's alien, like whispers from another dimension. Yes, that's kind of very strange.

Where does awareness come from? Can its location be identified?

Language really isn't fit for this, is it. Awareness just ... is ... here. Everywhere. No location. No size, no angle.

Isn't it odd that this strangeness is never questioned?

Heck yes! But what is needed to question? Who assesses strangeness? If no feeling arises of strangeness and no questioning appears, who's there to question the strangeness?

There's no I, so this noticing, this questioning, just happens, to 'me'. To another human, it may not happen. Is what it is.

And if the self is within thought, or mind, and thought can't be located, where exactly would the self be?

The mind always goes to these explanations. Don't worry, you can't see it, but it's here, it says. But it's supposed to be ME, right here!

Yes, there's no belief that the self is in the body. Though the body gets labeled as 'me', but the special control center, the belief is that it's 'up here'. It's cornered there. What is there. Some thoughts labeled as 'my thoughts' coming up. A feeling of pressure. Right, where would it be.

Where is the mind?

Thinking of the mind, a dark space behind the eyes is visualized. It feels like a safe space, housing my memories, my thoughts, me.

Looking, there's nothing. It's just a word too, pointing to nothing directly experienced. And thoughts just appear out of nowhere, some of them memories. Just know thought, feeling, labeling, effects I assume are caused by 'the mind'.


I see the layers. Labeling. It labels the entire visual field 'me'. Like looking through a force field or a cellophane wrapping around this body. Thoughts, saying learned things. Labeling of the thoughts 'me'. No substance.

I keep looking!

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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:00 pm

Hey Delma, thanks for your patience :)
Absolutely. We're going to break this post down. I don't often do this with intellectuals because it just causes more thinking. But I want to show you what inquiry vs. intellectualizing looks like. ok. here we go...
With thought. It just goes nothing, thought, nothing. I wouldn't say they are "nowhere". Like when talking, it goes silence, speech, silence. Where's a sentence before it's spoken? I'd say thought is the 'appeared form' of something else, unknown. It comes from 'outside'. Sticking to looking, not thinking. Yes, they just appear out of nowhere. It's a voice or an image, coming out of nowhere, that only I can observe, that nobody else can confirm is there, and it's got the label 'mine' on it. And that belief has held all my life. It's alien, like whispers from another dimension. Yes, that's kind of very strange.
That strangeness, that unknown... that's where I want you to go. Go into it. Find the source of thought.

Where does awareness come from? Can its location be identified?

Language really isn't fit for this, is it. Awareness just ... is ... here. Everywhere. No location. No size, no angle.
You do realize that this means that awareness doesn't pass your reality test, no?

Isn't it odd that this strangeness is never questioned?

Heck yes! But what is needed to question? Who assesses strangeness? If no feeling arises of strangeness and no questioning appears, who's there to question the strangeness?

There's no I, so this noticing, this questioning, just happens, to 'me'. To another human, it may not happen. Is what it is.

And if the self is within thought, or mind, and thought can't be located, where exactly would the self be?
Sounds like a purely philosophical debate. :) It's not useful to inquiry, so feel free to abandon this one.

The mind always goes to these explanations. Don't worry, you can't see it, but it's here, it says. But it's supposed to be ME, right here!
Since you know this to be true, what exactly is the issue? We have no gotten to the root of it.
Yes, there's no belief that the self is in the body. Though the body gets labeled as 'me', but the special control center, the belief is that it's 'up here'. It's cornered there. What is there. Some thoughts labeled as 'my thoughts' coming up. A feeling of pressure. Right, where would it be.
is "where it would be" an acceptable answer for testing reality? It's kind of a spiritual bypassing.

Where is the mind?

Thinking of the mind, a dark space behind the eyes is visualized. It feels like a safe space, housing my memories, my thoughts, me.
Again, you said, "feels". But this is supposed to be a test of reality. ;)
Looking, there's nothing. It's just a word too, pointing to nothing directly experienced. And thoughts just appear out of nowhere, some of them memories. Just know thought, feeling, labeling, effects I assume are caused by 'the mind'.

I see the layers. Labeling. It labels the entire visual field 'me'. Like looking through a force field or a cellophane wrapping around this body. Thoughts, saying learned things. Labeling of the thoughts 'me'. No substance.

I keep looking!
This is actually just thinking, so you don't need to follow it.

I'll be back with a second post explaining what's happening here and how to remedy it.
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby Delma » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:16 pm

Hi Eli,

I'm back. With a zen stick. This by no means means that I'm getting impatient. What I'm doing is cutting through. Are you ready?

First thing. You said you wanted a practical inquiry, so I answered your request because... well... I am extremely practical in my guiding style. Oddly, though, you start off with practicalities then move into mystery which you explain to yourself with concepts and supposition. Strange! Did you know that you have this duality? Seriously. lol... You set the terms of reality, then deviate from it with each post.

I wonder why.

You know, I'm a data geek. Or... used to be. I managed data and databases, so I get where you're coming from. You see yourself as a practical person. But honestly, I think you believe in magic. Magical thinking. Because you talk about FEELING a lot. About unknowns. And spin stories about it.

Don't despair. That's what thoughts do. You even know this because you've said it. It's something you realize, well, because you're intelligent.

The other weird thing is that you are earnest, but ignore my hints. That's completely normal too. And since it's not YOU, you're not to blame. But we've got to cut through that. When I say that this is so simple that a child can recognize it, I really mean it. I really mean that no intellectualization is required to see the true nature of reality. It's just right there underneath all that thinking ABOUT it.

Want to see what I mean? Don't get mad at me, ok?! lol... I'm going to get us through this, but you've got to trust this process.And this process is about learning the difference between reality and THOUGHTS about reality, and realizing that they are not the same thing. Oh. You may BELIEVE you already understand that, but you don't. You are simply confused about reality and imagination/story/fantasy. And somewhere along the line you've learned to rely on story/concepts/thought more heavily than reality. But again, that's not your doing. That's just how this works for most.

Take an apple. I mean, what the hell is an apple?
Is an apple IN awareness?
Or is an apple exactly the same as awareness?
Spiritual crap will teach you all about how "all is awareness", but language pretty much screws things up. It makes it seem as if there's this thing called AWARENESS, and this thing called APPLE that is IN it.

But if you really look you will see that the two are never, ever, ever separate. Take away awareness, no apple. Take away apple, no awareness of apple. They are not two.

The self is like that. We separate "me" from "other thing".

We say, "I am" as though it's the highest spiritual statement EVER.

But DAMMIT, Eli, TEST THAT. Which one of these statements is more true:

"I AM"

"AM"

Is the "I" necessary? Is there more than just AMNESS?

Let's get to business. Because I think you may be looking for a magical awakening and that's exactly what's holding you back. Try it!

Love you,
Delma

p.s. I'm a tough one, but I do it out of love. I don't want to see the "You" hanging around looking for the truth and never finding it.

So come back with answers. Because I love this. You rock. (well, you know. figure of speech. There's no you rocking. lol)
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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Re: Just need a little push...

Postby pfWrep5ph9 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:43 pm

Delma, thank you, thank you! First of all for putting me at ease that you're not bored yet and I'm not yet a hopeless cause and you think I'm a smart boy :) But seriously, this has cleared up a lot of crap here.

"Just a little push" my ass. Who was I to know.

You do realize that this means that awareness doesn't pass your reality test, no?

Of course!! New criteria!

Reality = awareness

What the hell are senses anyway? And mind? And objective reality somewhere 'behind awareness'? And layers in awareness? What in the hell was I on about?

I was always trying to see something new. Trying to rip awareness apart, find separateness in it. But there's none. And the reality test has become soooo much more relaxing and clear.

It's either there as awareness or it's not real.

I was really hung up about this, if I take out all assumptions and thinking, then what can I say is the difference between seeing an apple and visualizing an apple in the mind? Aren't they both "images of an apple", one in the eyes, the other in the mind? NO!

Seeing an apple = awareness as apple.

Thinking about an apple = awareness as thought about apple

The content of thought is not a thing. The thought is the thing.

It's comparing an apple to a photograph of an apple.

And now here's this apple, that I've never ever seen in my entire life, but I've been handed pictures of it my whole life, and I really believe that the picture of the apple is the apple and that the goddamn apple is me.

How does a picture of an apple compare to an apple? Not nearly as nutritious or delicious I say!

Reality = awareness. Thought = real. Content of thought = not real.

You see yourself as a practical person. But honestly, I think you believe in magic. Magical thinking. Because you talk about FEELING a lot. About unknowns. And spin stories about it.

Yep, can't argue. It seemed scientific, well reasoned, one step closer to the real truth. But thought's thought, and either it's there or it's learned. Senses, mind, subatomic particles, objective reality, none of it seen. Even the other room in my apartment. Either I see it or it's a memory = thought about the other room.

The mind always goes to these explanations. Don't worry, you can't see it, but it's here, it says. But it's supposed to be ME, right here!
Since you know this to be true, what exactly is the issue?

Belief. Taking content of thought as reality.


Got to run. Will be back with more answers. Be tough! I appreciate it! Thank you!


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