Twisted Up

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:30 pm

Sometimes the voice in the head is a commandment, with emotional content. Once this voice said I needed to quit my job and so I did although the decision was not put in place with any other plan besides to return to live with my parents. There was a force behind the thought, like it was destiny or something. It seemed like a great idea but there were no rational reasons for it to seem so and so far it hasn't led to anything obviously great other than increasing dedication to the subject matter of this board. And also to meeting my fiancee who has been a steadfast friend.

How do I experience free will and choice?

Some actions seem more free than others. Quitting cigarettes vs. smoking them, for example. The choices that moved me towards my ideal version of Nathaniel seemed to be free whereas those that did not seemed to be giving in. ( My name is Nathaniel, by the way).

Voice in the head seems to be a storyteller and isn't very sure what story is being told.

Thank you again Ilona. Much love. Hope to hear from you again.

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:53 am

Thank you for reply.

You say some actions are more free than others. Here is a question, what is not happening on automatic?
Explore this and write what feels true.

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:51 am

Nothing.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:09 pm

Thank you Ilona, much love.

I thought that maybe the pauses and gaps in thought, the spaces of not knowing. I've been looking since you have sent your reply and couldn't find anything that wasn't just happening, including these pauses and the movement that emerges afterwards.

I'm not jubilant. There is fear, the unknown. There is oddness. It feels like there is something crying out against seeing this. That there has been a loss. My body seems to be going through a change. A balancing or unwinding. It is deep.

Thank you for your time and attention. I wonder about love. I'd guess that existence appearing at all is love. All gift.

There is a counterbalancing peace to the sense of loss or of falling. I guess it is okay to give myself to this peace. It is all a manner of speaking.

Weird.

🙏

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:13 pm

Thank you for sharing what is going on. It can feel weird, odd and like falling. That’s part of the process. Something is shifting. And even though it may look like nothing, it only changes everything...
Nothing real is lost.

Yes, give yourself to peace. All is taken care off already.
Write what you see, it helps.
What is changing?

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:22 am

Every time I go to type my mind curls shut and the words don't come but here goes.

My actions seems to spring from a sort of dynamic flow of energy in the body. Like I'm aware of a shifting sensation and my attention flows with the shift. And so do my words and actions. I'm am sensitive to those around me and sometimes the sensations are not pleasant. My mind wants to make sense of why but usually falters and stops. I seem to have lost the ability to believe even those conclusions that the mind does reach; in that future thoughts often never refer back to that conclusion again. Sometimes they do, though, and it is disorienting because my actions often don't seem to follow the coclusion. It's like the coclusion feels valid but my actions don't line up with it. I am noticing that old emotional patterns play out repeatedly but seem to weaken with each repetition. Usually some image of the past is there while this is happening.

Planning the future is difficult. I am set to move across the country in a month but have not yet purchased my tickets or began to mail my things. I am engaged and am going through this shift where the way I experience people is in flux. I've been as transparent as I can articulate with my fiancee and she does not seem troubled but there is concern that I will not be able to function well as a husband and partner as this process unfolds. I never know if I'm doing the right thing.

Sometimes something like a patch of red leaves in the midst of green is captivating. I feel a desire to draw but am not drawing.

It's just confusing I suppose but I also seem to become aware in the more intense disorientations that life isn't that serious and that it's all just happening so there's no need to feel guilty or personally responsible or maybe even afraid. It's gonna go the way it goes.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:24 am

Thanks for reading ♥️

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:33 am

Thank you for sharing.
Its interesting, That you say, you won’t be able to function well as a partner. Sounds that there is a lack of trust in life. I invite you to explore this, by looking at the nature. There is intelligence and order in nature, each bird sings their song, each plant knows what kind of flowers to produce. Is there doubt, that life as this human does not know what to be?

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:01 pm

Thanks for the invitation. I accept. I've been looking since you messaged and will continue to do so.

Trust in life seems to be the only option. I certainly did not initiate this process of living through any volition of my own and tracing the chain of causality backwards ends in mystery just as life seems to move into mystery in the other direction of time and cause and effect. I'm reminded of Frodo saying "I will take the ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way."

I'll watch nature with am eye to seeing how life knows how to live.

Not sure that distrust is even possible. What is distrusting? What is being distrusted? Would it look like suicide perhaps? I don't want to go that road.

♥️

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:30 am

When you get into nature, watch how everything moves and wiggles, how everything is one movement. See how clouds move, trees swing, birds, insects, animals - all move.
See that thoughts, feelings, sensations are also part of this movement.
Then check, is there a line between me and the world?
Is there a line between inside and outside?
Is there one aliveness inside this body and other alivenesses in a tree, in a bird, in the grass?
Is there separateness from nature?


Write what you find out

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:41 pm

Hello Ilona,

I've had an intention for about a month now to go spend a day in nature with your instructions. I have not done so.

I do watch nature on documentaries or in my fellow human beings. Right now there is a squirrel across the parking lot running through the leaves on the ground. I feel a movement in my chest as I watch and then move my attention back and forth from that wriggle or wave in my chest to the squirrel and then blink twice quickly and my head jerks back a little. There's lots of little critters over among the trees. There is also pain and tension in this body as I watch that my attention moves to. I'm using a nicotine vaporizer that I use even though I think it probably is a dependence and likely unhealthy for my physical and mental health. I like watching the animals. The pain seems separate, my own. The squirrels and birds move freely about and all the time my attention is taken away from the spectacle towards little shifts in my muscles and twinges in my nerves. This same thing happens when my fiancee is around where slight noises will draw my full attention as if my system is preparing for threat. Despite all this, my attempts to search for a line of separation between the nature out there and the nature "in here" are fruitless. It's a beautiful day. It's good to see life move and flow freely. Love.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:55 am

Lovely, life is moving freely.
When you say, pain is my own, what is the owner of pain? Is there a receiver of pain, that owns it? How do you experience the owner? Is thought “owner” owns the pain?

Really look into what this owner owns. And what informs about ownership?

Write sooner!
Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:53 pm

Ok I am going to look into what this owner owns.

I would say persistence has something to do with ownership. Like 'My TV' is the TV that I have the experience of using on a regular basis that is in the same place as it was yesterday and likely will be there tomorrow barring unforeseen circumstances. There are laws about ownership that society agrees upon that have consequences when violated such as theft and vandalism and destruction of property. Trespassing. Buying and selling are based upon concepts of ownership. And buying and selling is what society is up to when it isn't up to war, it seems. Even war often seems about one group expanding what they can buy and sell. Also there is self preservation. I'm noticing right now that my focus moves to big picture stuff away from my experience right now.

What is the owner of pain?

So you ask me what is the owner of pain, is there a receiver of pain that owns it, and how do I experience the owner. Is it the the thought 'owner' that owns the pain? There is an anxiety in the solar plexus as I look at this and my attention bounces elsewhere, but I am intent upon this. Fear fear fear. I think it just might be the concept of an owner that owns the pain. When I view something as mine, as being owned by me, I can say yes or no to other people using it. I can feel righteous indignation if I am deprived of it. I can reasonably count on its continued presence. None of this says anything about whether or not the owner exists or is real, just about the rules in operation about how and when I feel certain ways. What I can and cannot do. These rules seem to apply most strongly to this body, which I call mine. I have had the experience of those rules being violated by force. I have violated these rules as well. More memories tied to my me.

I close my eyes and really look within for the owner and all there is is thoughts about ownership and sensory experience in the moment which shifts and moves ceaselessly. The receiver of pain is the concept of me. The pain I experience changes that concept, helps to give it definition and shape. My most potent memories I refer to to define me are those with pain.

I suppose I experience the owner as a set of rules. And as owner...as I typed those words I had a feeling of having caught myself. Like I view myself as owner. As the setter of rules. That what is going on is MY LIFE. In the moment I can't find any reality to that view. But what is the I that views myself as owner? Ask me now and I'll struggle up some words, ask me tomorrow and different words will come. It shifts like the sense data. Because it IS like that. I is an idea.

What is an idea? Language layer over echoes of sense experiences. There are ideas I believe and ideas I don't believe. Actually I'm not sure if I can really believe ideas anymore in the sense of an idea being real enough to die for. Or being certain enough about an idea to deny the reality of what's going on right now. Ideas like table are different than ideas like Justice. Justice is a patten in the behaviors of people. Table is a pattern of molecules bundled with our behavior in relation to that pattern.

So I've believed I owned my ideas. If I is an idea, then...an Idea owned an idea? It's just another idea that the other ideas hang from like spaghetti. What could possibly be different about the I-idea than the other ideas that it supposedly owned? Perhaps that it is the most fervently believed. Invested with the most energy. The most resistance to falsification.

Love.

Love.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:43 am

Thank you for replay. Yes, ownership is an agreement, a rule, that is convenient in social situation. My house, my trousers, my computer... it’s a rule.
What do you actually own?
Do you own sounds, colours, sensations, taste, smell, emotions, thoughts? Or all of that is given?

Are thoughts about a body that say, this body is mine, own the sense perception?
Is thought I the owner of other thoughts?
Is voice in the bad the owner of thought I?

What is that owns a tree, for example? Do leaves own the tree? Or branches own leaves? Or it’s all a form of nature, free from ownership rules?

Explore this deeper.

Sending love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:02 am

What do I actually own? Do I own sounds, colors. sensations, emotions, thoughts? Or is all of that given?

So if we agreement is a convenient rule for social interactions then it's relevance is in determining how one acts in relation to various objects, it doesn't get at the being of those objects or their nature.

I'm having difficulty answering this question. Words aren't coming in response to your questions.

About the tree, it seems that the leaves and trunk and roots all belong to each other with no central owner just a form or pattern of forms that appear different at different scales.

The voice in the head claims ownership of some sense perceptions perceptions, by using the 'I' thought as an owner. Like:

owns
I ------------> Hand (which is really a collection of sense perceptions gathered in the label 'hand')
I <------------ Hand (which is really a collection of sense perceptions gathered in the label 'hand')
belongs to

It doesn't seem like the voice in the head can own the I thought, just that the voice in the head is where and how the I thought occurs or manifests.

Thought seems to have a structure, kind of like the tree you were talking about. In that thought tree, it seems like thought I is the trunk, or maybe even the main root. The other thoughts branch off from it. This isn't completely accurate because but it seems that all thought or very nearly all thought is oriented within the mind based on how it relates to the I thought. The thought of 'Green' for example is given content from what 'I' sees when 'I' looks at various objects that have a certain quality of color in common.

If the thought 'I' owns the voice in the head it should control it, but the thought I arises as a voice in the head and not as anything else.

If the voice in the head owns the 'I' thought then it can't be 'I', as it seems to claim to be. The voice in the head would have to be not-I in order to own the 'I' thought.

I seem to exist though even if I'm not a thought and if the I thought is a fiction like Santa Claus like it says in the Gateless Gatecrashers book.

Focusing is a challenge right now.

The thoughts about a body that say 'this body is mine' are more perceptions like the perceptions that make up our experience of body. Just all different perceptions.

Let say that all of these are forms of nature, free from ownership rules. We can say that certain forms show up linked together more often than other forms. You're more likely to see a birds nest than a car up in a tree. The rule of ownership in nature seems to absent. If you can get something, you can have it. Some things are not beneficial to get, like eating a poisonous mushroom.

Going back to Santa Claus, he is said to own a red suit and a white beard. But those thoughts are just parts of the image thought of Santa Clause that we've learned through repetition and agreement.

Thank you...

Love.


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