Twisted Up

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:52 am

Very good. Yes, there is no ownership in nature. Are you a form of nature too?

The voice speaks from the first perspective using words I me mine. Thoughts I me mine show up in the narrative ABOUT I me mine. If you talk all day about Pinocchio, does he become a real boy?

Yes, Santa and red clothes are the image. Santa is an image.

Is (your name) an image or an entity that lives inside the body and commands it around?

How do you see that?
Do you make body do things? If so, what is that you make it do?

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Wed May 13, 2020 7:52 pm

Nature 'does' me. The phenomenon of thoughts are part of that happening/doing.

Nathaniel is an image, mind's represantation of me that is used to orient and move through the world.

It needs a label to work with how the world is in relationship to this entity.

Nathaniel doesn't make the body do things but thoughts of intent do arrive before action oftentimes. The thoughts are part of the same movement as the action, further upstream of the action. They are an action that nature takes too just like washing the dishes or driving to the store. But 'Nathaniel' the label is used to understand or think about what has been, what will be done.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Wed May 13, 2020 11:13 pm

I must be for I cannot exist separate from it.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Thu May 14, 2020 1:00 am

Yes. Thank you.

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Thu May 14, 2020 5:41 am

Wonderful!
What do you notice in your normal everyday life? Has anything changed, look different from before we started this conversation?
Is seeking still going strong?
And is there a doubt about the separate self being an illusion?
Write what feels true from you experience last few days.
Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Thu May 14, 2020 7:58 pm

Last few days have been not radically different. The main thing is an experience of distance from certain long-standing patterns of thought and behavior, like they are going on but less like I have to do anything about them.

There is still seeking but it's as though the thought process begins and then I notice the thoughts partway through the idea forming and it's kind of like popping a bubble. Sometimes the bubbles last long and with them certain physical sensations of anxiety, tension as well as thoughts about me being hateful or bad. It seems like I can't get fully drawn in though anymore and there's a threshold at which my awareness perks up and I kind of stop buying into it.

I have had difficulty making decisions in my life, but I'm noticing little by little that I'm doing more productive things and enjoying time spent with others more. I have never really minded being alone but I'm less apt to be dissociated from the world and caught up in my head when I am alone.

I'm getting the ability and interest in learning back in some areas which is nice.

I have awareness that anything that can be sought won't last anyways and have had certain experiences that I have long craved and have been aware even as they were happening that they weren't adding anything to my experience really, not making life better. And certain unpleasant experiences I have been more able to take in stride and even found a certain interest in the growth and challenge that they bring.

What looks different most is that I'm losing the sense that I need to do something to make myself better or other people better. Growing up Christian when people needed to hear the good news to save them from hellfire grants one a certain sense of righteous purpose and that movement was seeking something to save, a way to be a hero or maybe even a martyr. It makes in hard to enjoy life if you're viewpoint is finding what's wrong constantly just to make your own existence seem justified.

Thank you, much love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Fri May 15, 2020 5:41 pm

Love vs. Much love...old patterns of trying to be superior? I appreciate your time and attention throughout this conversation.

Wahoo

Have fun!

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Sat May 16, 2020 6:09 am

That’s lovely, thank you for sharing about the changes that you notice. It all sounds like you are settling in. Of course challenges keep coming and it’s great to see them as an opportunity of growth rather than something g to avoid.
Would you say, you are ready for the final questions?

Love received, sending back.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Wed May 20, 2020 2:17 pm

Yeah, I'm ready.

Love and gratitude.

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Wed May 20, 2020 5:10 pm

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Sun May 31, 2020 4:53 pm

1) There is not. There was never.

2) The illusion of the separate self is a function of the mind that it uses to orient itself in it's world of symbols. The center of the web of symbols. The symbols gain their 'meaning' from their relationship to the self-symbol. This creates a situation where everything in the world other than that 'self' is by definition separate from it. I guess it starts when people refer to us by our name. Adults who our biology tells us have survived to adulthood and should be emulated to a certain extent so that we may do the same. Usually parents. There is a label, 'Nathaniel' in my case, that becomes the container for our mental identity. Sometimes our name is said with emotions that we are averse to, sometimes with emotions we enjoy. We learn what sorts of actions prompt the different responses in others and generally seek to elicit the more positive ones, though not always. Sometimes we take pleasure in our perception that others are suffering. I think this is the start of good and bad. Concepts get linked with good feelings and bad feelings. Love and fear. There are things like hunger, thirst and the reproductive drive that exist hard wired into the human organism, but those fit into the good and bad categories too unless our conditioning has made a virtue of being against the fulfillment of said appetites or drives. Eventually we find other minds with different good/bad maps and often this difference is labelled bad. Then we can feel good in comparison to that foreign other bad.

3) The difference from the start of the dialog is that I'm viewing my tension and all the other perturbations of existence less as a problem and more like events whose eventual conclusion is my own death in every sense of the word. Even strong feelings don't really feel like a prompt to action anymore, and it's more the case that strong feelings of any sort are more of a curiosity. LIke 'ooh let me pay attention to this and see what's going on' without the need for their disappearance or continuance. I do catch myself hoping that a certain feeling will last or go away but the thought soon follows that from either attitude no thing is permanent, emotions or situations or bodies or anything.

4) I can't reallly point to a moment and say that that was when I looked. At the moments when my perspective has shifted in my past it was usually ultimate frustration and powerlessness or confusion and my view just sort of shifted. Tension in the body and mind compel me to shed more and more of what I cling to. Let go more. Know less. In the end I'd say that I couldn't not look.

5) Decision/intention/free will/choice and control are experiences. They are a class of experience that arises when the mind is functioning in a certain mode. Sometimes that experience is present, sometimes it is not. Often it feels like I am paralyzed or unable to act and move 'on my own' and just wait and action inevitably follows. Things happen, nothing makes them happen. I'm responsible for my actions and their effects upon others and their alignment with laws and the agreements I've made with others from the perspective of society. If I show up late to work enough, I'll be written up and eventually fired. There seems to be an understanding that I depend upon money for food. There seems to be an idea that this isn't necessary...people beg and scavenge and get by on the help of others without jobs or income. Often these people are in poor health and eventually wear out their welcome. Perhaps that isn't the case. Jesus said not to worry about the morrow like the lillies of the field. In any case it seems as though it's all a playing out of certain conditions and events as well as the inborn tendencies of the organism to which they happened.

6) Life is strange and I have no idea how Nathaniel is going to play out. I wonder if the experience of intention and follow through will return, I wonder when this body will die. I wonder...I wonder...I wonder. Oftentimes I'm not wondering and instead i'm enjoying the beauty of the sky or a meal or a smile from a stranger. Pain passes and this body is going to wear out and dissipate. I'm grateful.

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:42 am

Wonderful, thank you for answers. It was delightful to read them.
Is there any doubt?
And is there anything else you want to explore at this point?

With love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:37 pm

I dunno if there is much other than doubt, actually.

I feel very disoriented lately, but also peaceful. I feel like I've lived with the idea that there was some great work towards which to put my energy to i.e. imitating Christ, saving others, being a good person, creating something great and all of that seems to have lost its force except for a persistent feeling that there is something I should be up to. Maybe this sense will fade or find an outlet. Thank you for everything Ilona.

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:58 am

Sounds that you are in the place where old motivation based on egoic drive is falling a way and the new motivation from inspiration, from the inner desire hasn’t come through yet. This will pass. And it’s good to see that old belief about saving the world is falling a away. Wold is fine as it is. :) it’s doing it’s job perfectly. What is there to save?
We can continue chatting, till you are settled in new clarity..
love.


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