Twisted Up

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AnyKing
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Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:59 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That I am not. I is an empty container the mind organises itself around to facilitate or produce the human experience. I is the most common thought, perhaps. It is associated with tension in the body and aversions or attractions. The I thought happens at the same time as tension or nearly.

What are you looking for at LU?
A guide. Someone to point to the truth so I can look and see.inwould like to be done seeking the truth or Experiencing obsession with figuring life out. I wanna go to square one and relax and let life unfold.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Cutting through bullshit, perhaps confirmation from one who has seen that this seeing is also true. Getting to a place where experiences flow and I can let the moments "die" or be "digested". To really grock no-self permanently or removing any barriers to this already present reality.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Christian raised, read a lot of philosophy.
Many hours of Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti and Anthony DeMello talks. Have read Most of the Jed McKenna books and many books on "this stuff".

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:44 pm

Hi AnyKing

Welcome to LU Forum. Glad you made it here. I’m here to assist.
Thanks for intro and patience waiting for a guide.

To start, let’s agree that you will answer from your own experience alone and will be fully honest.
Are you ready to relax and let life to unfold?

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:07 am

Agreed. I will only answer from my own experience and will he completely honest. I am ready to relax and let life unfold. Thank you for your time and attention. I feel a little nervousness. Love here also.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:09 am

Will be* completely honest. Thank you.

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Ilona
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:34 pm

Wonderful. Let’s begin.

Can you tell me what it is precisely that you are looking for?

What should be different than What is?
What do you want to change?
What do you hope that will change?
What do you expect from realization?

Take your time and write down all that applies.

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:23 pm

What am I looking for?

I'm sitting here trying to think of some deep or profound answer and my mind is blank. I'd like not to be deceived, to have my life flow from a true source. The true source. Using logic I've been frustrated because it seemed that all positions one could hold as far as assertions of the truth were merely opinions. Reinforced ones. I'm looking for being done with searching for The Truth.

What should be different than what is?

I've lost confidence in my ability to arrive at valid conclusions about that. I see a lot of situations or patterns in the world that seem destructive and misguided but I participate in those patterns too. Also true for my personal life situation. I think the "right" answer is nothing. What should be different? There's an answer of like happiness for everyone and no pain. Heaven on Earth but I can't begin to think of how to move from here to there and I realize that any idea of that heaven would be an idea like in the previous response and they'd need force behind them to get others to agree and I don't wanna do that.

I can't think of anything that I am certain should be any different.

What do you want to change?

There seems to be a good deal of internal friction whenever I set a course so to speak in life. Uncertainty, mind analyzing. Lately that seems to have decreased but with it has gone a sense of direction. Like there used to be a sort of person I'd like to be, an ideal, and that's gone and I'm no longer sure where all this is going. Part of me would like to know but I think not knowing is part of the charm of life. What do I want to change? Only impossible things like the past but right now as I'm typing I can't think of anything.

What do I hope will change?

The first answer that arises is that I'll be better. I realize that there isn't any entity to be improved though so that thought dies quickly. Perhaps a relaxation into the flow of life and a loosening of deeply ingrained expectations and needs for the situation to be any different than it is now. I hope that tensions in the body ease but I also realize that tensions are how muscles function. I hope I'll stop fighting against what is and that the body gets the memo hahaha. I'm sort of laugh/crying right now.

What do I expect from realization?

I think I have held expectations in the past that I'd be some sort of great man. A cut above, special, important, influential or powerful, revered etc.. I looked to Jesus and Buddha and even contemporary spiritual leaders as models of that. Somewhere along the way enlightenment or realization got mixed up with greatness as a sort of ultimate achievement. A black belt for the mind or spirit as it were. But if accomplishments are just statements about me that I take to be true AND good and the me itself isn't true it ruptures that whole structure. What do I expect from realization? As I pose this question inwardly, imaginations of feelings are the response. Not even direct body sensations but faint images and imaginings of possible peak experiences. A great rush of water, a mountaintop. I don't know what to expect.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:36 pm

I walked away from the key board and remembered you ending your last message with "Love." And it didn't occur to me while typing before to say love back. And then I felt the urge to come back here and say thank you again for doing this and listening to me or reading or whatever. So thank you. Love seems important and mysterious. Perhaps discovering love is an expectation of realization for me. In any case. I said love is here also in my first response but I feel fear that I can't say that if I am not and I want to love and be loved and yet there is no me for the love to land on or emanate from.

Thank you.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:06 am

Thank you for exploring this and sharing with honesty.
One thing to take form this is it’s not what you expect. It’s not what mind expects. It’s something much simpler and different from the ideas of the mind. Recognition is beyond the mind, so having expectations is in the way of seeing.
Looks that you are in the right place.
So let’s take a step further.

Let this thought in and write what shows up (thoughts, sensations, emotions, felling in the body) immediately after you play with this statement:

There is no separate self at all. Never was. No manager, no controller of life, no thinker, decider, director, that is separate from the flow of life. Everything is already happening as one movement, one reality. One aliveness.

Write..


Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:36 pm

Immediately after reading that statement and "write.." There was a slippage of sorts like something loosening in my shoulder. I felt light headed and disoriented. Memories of past moments of high stress flitted through my mind.

My family is in the room so I am going to go upstairs and continue to write there.

It sort of just seems self evidently so. There was a time when I was a child where I believed that I had died and went to heaven and was very confused to be back in my home after returning to normal consciousness. This memory comes back to me often and is doing so now. I guess all the experiences I had leading up to that and then the experiences during my "death" were just mind.

I honestly feel ok. The mind is not throwing up stuff to try and contradict your statement and my body is actually quite at ease save for some slight pains and discomforts in my joints.

I'm thinking about how our body and mind has ways of dealing with pain such as dissociating or blacking out. I had this sort of thought about my suffering as a kid. I'm thinking that what I believed about events tended to gum up the works more than the events themselves and that this pattern is universally applicable.

It's wonderful, miraculous that all the world can shift and take form without a puppet master. What a symphony.

There can be an experience of making a decision and of having traversed some chain of reasoning to get there. That's all well and good but there isn't a place separate to sit and do this and nobody to sit there. I am reminded of the Talking Heads song where he says "Same as it ever was".

Thank you. Love.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:59 am

Yep, same as it ever was! I love talking heads :)

Ok, good to notice, that there is no resistance and tension when this sentence lands. Now let’s look for the evidence of that in normal everyday life.
If you have a possibility to get out in the nature and spend some time there by yourself, that would be great. The idea is to notice movement. Everything moves and wiggles. Clouds move, trees move, birds move, aliveness is one big movement. Then look, is there a line between this body and nature? Is there a line between inside and outside?
Are thoughts, sensations, emotion part of the same movement?
Is there any thought, sensation emotion that is not part of life happening?

And this
Is life happening to a tree or as a tree?
Is life happening to this body or as this body?

If you can’t get out to nature, looking through a window is enough, it’s the same nature everywhere.

Write what you notice in your experience.

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:20 am

Ok so I am I'm the backyard with the Family dog Roxy and she is sniffing around and noticing things and looking around with me. Looking for the line between inside and outside, the body and nature; my attention is drawn to my feet. Even in that sensation there is motion and subtleties. I notice that as I pay attention to the motion of the trees in the breeze that my body sort of disappears but I don't become aware of that in the disappearance but when attention goes back there to sort of 'check in'. Then it's like "Oh, body!" A sound of a passing car draws attention then there is the feeling of muscles in the neck as my head rotates to look and a school bus is there passing down the street.

The feeling I have taken as the line between the body and nature shows up when I look for it and it's a sort of solidity or heaviness of the body being affected by gravity. It's a feeling like the others in that it comes and goes. It doesn't seem to be necessary for life to continue. If one were in space in zero-g I wonder if it would even remain. Probably not.

Are thoughts, sensations, emotion part of the same movement?

I can't think of any other movement that they could be a part of though there is a sense that they are localized. Like I could point out a certain tree and people around me could say "Yes I see that" and confirm characteristics of it like height and color whereas my thoughts emotions and sensations are in a sort of private sphere, not available to others except through my expressing them in noises or words or a piece of music or a drawing or gesture. This type of expression seems like it could be a movement from inside to outside through a medium. But I guess the inside and outside are added on thoughts too maybe. Inside of what? Is there actually an idea with a separate existence inside of me that gets moved to the words on the page and that you pick up and internalize later? It's probably more like an echo or ripples on a pond. I want to use words like internal or external here but I keep sticking there. Sensation motion then thought-emotion motion, then expressing motion then interpreting motion. Motion motion motion forever.

It's not a problem that I didn't see the sunrise in China today, from certain perspectives it did. ( Concerning the private nature of certain motions. Like not all evens occur from all perspectives. Perspective itself is another's motion or something like that)

If life can occur as a tree or as my dog Roxy then I suppose it could occur as seemingly localized thoughts, feelings and sensations.

I'm playing with the questions of life happening to this body or as this body, to the tree or as the tree. I try to picture or imagine where life would be if it were outside happening to the tree or the body. I get a funny sort of stuck feeling in the head trying to picture a life separate from and acting upon objects. Where the hell would it be? In life land moving through mysterious channels to animate this body or that tree over in no life land? Doesn't make much sense.


Is there any thought, sensation or emotion that is not a part of life happening?

The only thing I can think of here is like the absence of those things. Like when you sleep at night and it all goes away and then comes back like magic and your clock says that it's eight hours later. Or when someone dies. Maybe that's the same as how I was saying at the beginning how when I was absorbed in nature the body "disappears" until I check then "pop!" It's there. Haha the only thing I can think of is no-thing.


I hope this is the right sort of responses. This is interesting and fun thank you for being there helping me to look 😊!


Love too.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:56 am

Thank you for replies! Yes, that’s sort of thing ia am asking- looking in your experience and describing it.

Now sit with eyes closed and see if you can find the line between inside and outside? Where does here need and there begin? Do sound happen inside or outside?
Does emotion happen inside or outside?
Where is the line?

Notice, that attention is moving. Watch closely, are you moving attention or is it going to the next thing/ event automatically?
What is that moves attention? Does it move by itself?

Describe what you find!

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:54 am

The more I look for the line between inside and outside, the more I can't find it. It's like there's an array of sensations that arise and disappear. It's strange because I read your message and I intend to do my best to carry out your instructions. So that seems to be guiding this time of sitting and reflecting. With focus I can be aware of some tension in the abdomen and the background sound of electronics in the room but there doesn't seem to be any qualitative difference between the two sensations. It's almost like awareness is a room and the sound is a table against the wall and the abdominal sensation is a chair in the middle of the room. It's a metaphor though, to be clear.

I try to move my attention from one place to another and a thought comes "where? Where should I move it?" There is no answering thought. Just now I even said "TV" aloud but my gaze did not move up to it, until I just typed that.

So does sound happen inside or outside? Emotion?

The distinction is just getting meaningless.

Do I move attention or does it move on its own/automatically?

It seems to be going it's own way. I remember awhile ago, several years, I had a very strange experience when I was reading and thinking about free will. I allowed myself (this seems more like a figure of speech than reality at this moment) to loosen my grip on my belief in free will. To allow the question fair ground as it were. There was a big emotional release of mixed up crying and laughing as well as a lot of abstract thoughts about East and west, philosophy and stuff. I had just noticed or was to notice soon that thought seemed very mechanical. As I'm typing this the memory of the experience and my description of it grows more silly and trivial in tone. It's kind of fading. I thought that that was my big spiritual awakening. Anyway this does relate to the question because I had concluded that awareness and attention were where the magic was. I decided that I could control where my attention goes and therefore I could shape my reality by paying attention to the stuff I wanted more of. Life was what I was aware of and I wanted more and more. There isn't any more, is there? Oh well.

All there ever is or was is what attention alights on briefly before moving on to the next thing or event.

What moves the attention? Hell if I know! Nothing? Nobody's at the friggin wheel! I notice a thought of "Why?" when a new object or event shows up. Any answer has to do with narrative and character. Answering thoughts don't even really show up unless others are here (family or co-workers or friends or whomever). When I'm alone silence seems to be the answer to why.

Thank you thank you thank you.

Love.

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Re: Twisted Up

Postby Ilona » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:14 am

Great Looking. Yes, silence is the answer.
Let’s explore the idea of free will.
What is the will free from?
Is there a closer, that deicides what happens next independently of situation given?
Does voice in the head decide what happens or talks about what happened?

How do you experience free will and choice?
Look in everyday normal situations and write what you notice.

Love.

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AnyKing
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Re: Twisted Up

Postby AnyKing » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:12 am

What is the will free from?

I'd like the will to be free from force by other wills. I wrote a paragraph or so last night and lost it. The will seems to be synonymous with "what I want". Words are not coming easily right now. So there's that. I want to write well and thoroughly but what is happening seems to be different. To thwart that will. I've generally experienced will and choice in a different context though. Like there'd be a thought expressing what I believed I had to do and then usually what I wanted to do once want I had to do was finished. I have often acted at odds with this, however. I've lied and I've acted contrary to the values I supposed guided my actions, my choices. I was punished a lot as a kid for making the "wrong" choices. So choice seemed to be about avoiding pain and getting people to like me so maybe they'd spend time with me and do what I wanted them to. Aversion and manipulation. All conditioning by the carrot and the stick. Then I thought to be free from conditioning. I thought that if I could act from inner silence then I would more in alignment with the will of the universe or the Tao. Wei Wu Wei stuff.

Now it seems like my thoughts are scrabbling to catch up with reality more than determining it. My mind will offer usually two different stories about a given action of "mine". Usually regarding my motivations. Usually one that is altruistic and heroic and one that is sneaky or selfish. This happens after a given action. I read in Jed McKenna's books that when he didn't know what to do he didn't do anything and that seemed to make sense in a strange way. I tend not to believe either story when they arise. This has grown easier to do gradually but in the past there was tremendous emotional force behind these stories, feelings of threat and danger or feelings of grandiosity and destiny.

Most times a thought occurs to say something but I sit with the thought and let it die unspoken if it will do that but sometimes the thought gets spoken to whomever I am conversing with. The words that are spoken without being thought first tend to ring truest to my ears although sometimes after speaking it feels like what I have said was possibly hurtful or unkind.

Is there a chooser?

I don't think so. I can't really piece my actions together into a coherent character or image whose actions are predictable. Nor can I predict what words will be spoken or typed. Thankfully my actions don't seem malicious. I can't choose what to think.

Voice in the head is often silent, but it doesn't seem to be calling the shots as much as commentating, like a sports announcer over the radio.


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