It's about time

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:20 pm

I'm back on deck!
Let go of all these ideas and suppositions; they may obscure your clear view of the simple experience of the Now.

Well that's easier said than done. That leaves me.... absolutely nothing
"Absolutely nothing" is a good starting point! :)
Like a blanc screen, like a newborn baby, not filled up with ideas and concepts yet.

Are you willing to put aside all assumptions/expectations about awakening and/or the nature of reality?
(Don't just type "yes" - have a sincere look inside yourself if there is any resistence.)


I've been telling myself that reality as I experience it is an illusion, but it hadn't really occured to me that true reality as I pictured is is just that.... as I pictured it
What we actually experience is one thing.
What we think/believe/assume about this experience is another.

Actual experience (we will also call it "Direct Experience" here) is the rare experience of the "Now". It's hearing, seeing, feeling etc - as well as the ongoing stream of thought, that comes along with sensual perceptions: The latter labels direct experience, interprets it, distinguishes one from another and comments on it.
So if you look at an object, what do you really see and what is mentally attached? Try it. Take an orange or something and tell me:

What do you see?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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Rhino
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Re: It's about time

Postby Rhino » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:17 pm

Are you willing to put aside all assumptions/expectations about awakening and/or the nature of reality?
I feel that this letting go will be scary... but yes, I am willing to do that!
So if you look at an object, what do you really see and what is mentally attached? Try it. Take an orange or something and tell me:

What do you see?
I see contrast, borders, I see a confined space distinct from its surroundings.

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:47 pm

I feel that this letting go will be scary... but yes, I am willing to do that!
Please let me know whenever resistance and/or fear comes up throughout the process!
For now, let's continue here:
I see contrast, borders, I see a confined space distinct from its surroundings.
Right. In order to see the object as an "orange", (or whatever object we might look at) the pure seeing experience gets labelled by thought.
Observe this "labelling" more closely. Look around the room. When your gaze falls on a certain object, automatically this labelling process starts. If your gaze lingers longer on the object, further associations and perhaps also small stories are added.
Can you recognize this?
Play with this for a while. Examine that thin line between direct experience and attached thought content.
Here are some pointers to support your inquiry:

Do you do the labelling or does that happen automatically?
What about further thoughts that pop up while gazing at an object? Do you produce theses thoughts? If so, how?
If you focus on the pure experience of seeing:
Can you spot something, that makes seeing happen? Do you make seeing happen?
Does the experience of seeing happen inside or outside?


Don't think about it. Dont't answer from "knowing" (what you have learned).
LOOK into actual experience!
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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Rhino
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Re: It's about time

Postby Rhino » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:04 pm

Do you do the labelling or does that happen automatically?
There seems to be a tiny amount of space between seeing, biologically, and seeing/recognizing. So the labelling seems to be a little bit lagging behind.
What about further thoughts that pop up while gazing at an object? Do you produce theses thoughts? If so, how?
That's a hard question. There seems to be some inner dialogue... not sure what to call it. But it can be silenced easier than the labelling. And yes, it feels like I'm producing this dialogue.
Can you spot something, that makes seeing happen? Do you make seeing happen?
Well obviously my eyes make it happen but that's not what you mean. The sum of my experiences make the labelling happen. The rest of the inner dialogue is part of me that's wants to make meaning out of everything, that wants to order everything.
Do you make seeing happen?
No, I'm witnessing it. It's not something I do.
Does the experience of seeing happen inside or outside?
Inside my body/head, outside my real self.

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:43 pm

There seems to be some inner dialogue... (....) And yes, it feels like I'm producing this dialogue.
Let's dig a bit deeper here. Look at this inner dialogue.

Where do the thoughts of that inner dialogue come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
 
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?


Don't get lost in thinking about this! Just LOOK!
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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Rhino
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Re: It's about time

Postby Rhino » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:47 am

Hi I'm sorry it's taking so long. The last few days have been really busy and I need some rest in my head to give a proper answer to your questions.

Hopefully I will have a reaction soon, please be patient.

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:16 pm

Okay no worries.
Take your time.

Thanks for letting me know!
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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Rhino
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Re: It's about time

Postby Rhino » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:50 pm

Where do the thoughts of that inner dialogue come from?
Where are they going?
Well, spatially, the seem to be coming from under, sort of floating up. Apart from the spatial-component, they really seem to be appearing and if they're produced, I'm not aware of being the producer.
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Yes, sort of... I can stop paying attention to it, it seems. Depending on the level of awareness:
level 1) there's thoughts, no conscious awareness of them but just thoughts occupying all that I am
level 2) there's awareness of thoughts, this seems to immediately disturb the free floating of the thoughts. They become less prominent, less intense
level 3) there's awareness and hardly any thoughts

Level 1 is my daily operation mode. Level is the beginning of a conscious effort to observe and level 3 is meditation in process.
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
No, not that I am aware of.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
No, only choose to distance myself from my thoughts, effectively slowing the thinking process down, almost bringing it to a halt.
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No!
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Again no, I'm not aware. The thoughts seem to be entities on their own.

Related to those last remarks: I was wondering who it is, you're asking these questions. I know it's me, but what is me?
My thoughts seem to be eager to take ownership of those questions, and answer them. I've tried to answer them from the observer point of view though, if that makes sense.

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:33 pm

level 1) there's thoughts, no conscious awareness of them but just thoughts occupying all that I am
level 2) there's awareness of thoughts, this seems to immediately disturb the free floating of the thoughts. They become less prominent, less intense
level 3) there's awareness and hardly any thoughts

If there's no conscious awareness of thoughts, how can you know that the thoughts are there?
What is "awareness" anyway? Is it any different from the actual experience of thinking?
Is awareness somehow separated from the actual experience (of thinking)?
If so: how exactly?

Don't think, just LOOK!



I was wondering who it is, you're asking these questions. I know it's me, but what is me?
My thoughts seem to be eager to take ownership of those questions, and answer them. I've tried to answer them from the observer point of view though, if that makes sense.

"Who (or what) is asking?" That is the one-million-dollar-question!

But: This question can not be answered with the thinking mind!
Anyway, don't waste energy in trying to switch off the "monkey mind". Just let the mind continue rattling in the background and focus on the actual experience in the now when you ask yourself these questions.
Rather meditate / contemplate on this... Just be with the question.
Don't search for the answer. Instead, look at the abscence of an answer.

Who/what is asking? Is there a questioner separated from the mental process of asking? Or is asking just happening?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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Rhino
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Re: It's about time

Postby Rhino » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:06 pm

If there's no conscious awareness of thoughts, how can you know that the thoughts are there?
All of a sudden I become aware that I was lost in thinking. I'm not absolutely certain that thoughts were there before I realized that ofcourse.
What is "awareness" anyway? Is it any different from the actual experience of thinking?
Awareness is one directional. Thinking seems more like an inner dialogue to me. Awareness is like observing but not participating.
Is awareness somehow separated from the actual experience (of thinking)?
If so: how exactly?
It encompasses it I think. But it silences it as well it seems. The more I am aware, the less loud my thoughts are, if that makes sense?
Who/what is asking? Is there a questioner separated from the mental process of asking? Or is asking just happening?
I feel some amusement contemplating this question. It's a paradox. The question is being asked, but what led to it.... it's amusing but I also almost feel like crying. It's a BIG question.
Never mind who's asking, who's answering?
Same problem. It's definitely happening.

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:47 pm

All of a sudden I become aware that I was lost in thinking. I'm not absolutely certain that thoughts were there before I realized that ofcourse.
Okay, you can be more or less aware of your thoughts.
But isn't "Oh, I was totally lost in thinking, but now I'm aware of that!" just another thought?
Is "awareness" thinking this? Are "you" thinking thinking this?
Can you draw a line in actual experience between "awareness", "you" and "thinking"?


I feel some amusement contemplating this question. It's a paradox. The question is being asked, but what led to it.... it's amusing but I also almost feel like crying. It's a BIG question.
Never mind who's asking, who's answering?
Same problem. It's definitely happening.
Yes it's a paradox indeed! (As long as we watch the problem intellectually.)
LOOK into direct experience: Is there a real "who" or "what" to be found in thinking / asking / being aware?
Stay alert: Thoughts could take over the helm again, claiming this or that, doubting, explaining, interpreting...
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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Rhino
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Re: It's about time

Postby Rhino » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:11 pm

Okay, I was lost in thinking again (and again and again...)
That's why I couldn't give a good reply.

If I just look this is what I see:
Thoughts are just there. On their own. Observable. There's no I producing them. They seem to be alive though. Almost like they have a personality.

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:23 pm

Okay, I was lost in thinking again (and again and again...)
That's why I couldn't give a good reply.
Never mind! You don't have to give perfect answers by the way ;) If you're clueless or lost in thinking: that's okay.

If I just look this is what I see:
Thoughts are just there. On their own. Observable. There's no I producing them.
Good...
When thoughts are observed... is there also an observer to observe, separated from observation?

They seem to be alive though. Almost like they have a personality.
Hmmmm...
Do you mean like "they have their own will"?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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Rhino
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Re: It's about time

Postby Rhino » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:49 pm

When thoughts are observed... is there also an observer to observe, separated from observation?
No, there is observation but not an observer.
Do you mean like "they have their own will"?
No, not really. They're not trying to accomplish anything according to some sort of agenda or anything like that.
It's more that they represent different persons, or different versions of me.
Not the literal thought but that what's behind the thought.

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flowings
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Re: It's about time

Postby flowings » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:49 pm

It's more that they represent different persons, or different versions of me.
Not the literal thought but that what's behind the thought.
What is that? Is there something?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.


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