Freedom Now

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:20 am

Wonderful!
You know, that pain is inevitable, right? Suffering over pain is the internal struggle. And we are here to look at that struggle and see if it is at all necessary.

What do you get from struggle?
What is the payoff of fighting what is?
Fighting is here as a solution, it is giving something, now let’s see if that is helping or not really?

Look closer at the inner fighting, what is there that is judging? Is there a judge? How does this judge know what life should be?
Is voice in the head, talking about what needs and should be different telling the truth? Does this voice know?

Write what you find out.

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:40 pm

Hi Ilona
You know, that pain is inevitable, right?
Yes I know that pain is inevitable. My struggle is around chronic unending pain. Same with fear. I know that there are situations where fear is necessary and useful but my struggle is around chronic excessive fears (and phobias) which limits my life to a huge degree.
Suffering over pain is the internal struggle. And we are here to look at that struggle and see if it is at all necessary.
What do you get from struggle?
I get a lot of tension and unhappiness from struggling. A lot of frustration. I feel powerless to change anything
What is the payoff of fighting what is?
Good question! Maybe I get some false sense of power...? I get to resist feeling like a puppet boy, or like a welcome mat that anyone can step on. I get some feeling of individuation and autonomy.

Fighting is here as a solution, it is giving something, now let’s see if that is helping or not really?
No, not really helping!
Look closer at the inner fighting, what is there that is judging?
Both thoughts and beliefs are involved in fighting/judging.

Is there a judge?
I am the judge.
How does this judge know what life should be?
By comparing desired experience to actual current experience.
Is voice in the head, talking about what needs and should be different telling the truth?
Yes, it is telling the truth. It is stating a true desire for how I want things to be different.
Does this voice know?
It's not always a voice. Often it is just a "knowing". Often it is a nonverbal desire.

This is what came up today.
Thank you!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:06 am

Thank you for sharing,
Yes I know that pain is inevitable. My struggle is around chronic unending pain. Same with fear. I know that there are situations where fear is necessary and useful but my struggle is around chronic excessive fears (and phobias) which limits my life to a huge degree.
I’m sorry to hear that. This does not sound like fun. Sorry, but seeing no self does not end the chronic pain. As you say, it makes you feel powerless. Allow that feeling, being powerless. Struggling against what is and not being able to change what is. Say yea to that. The pain is here. Allow it to be here. It’s not that it needs your allowing, it is here already. But allowing it ends the struggle. Say, so be it. It is already here.

Can you drop this question into the pain (as if you would drop a pebble in a pond and watch ripples, tell me what comes up when you drop this question in)
Do you have any message for me? Is there anything you want me to know?



Another thing from your answers, you say you are the judge. Or is judging something happening on automatic? Look closer here.
Can you stop judging? Can you judge differently? Or all those judgements are already given? Examine and get back to me.

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:28 pm

Hi Ilona
Thank you for your reply!
I appreciate it.
seeing no self does not end the chronic pain.
This is true. But it might help reduce the struggle with the pain. And reduce some of the emotional pain of life.
Can you drop this question into the pain (as if you would drop a pebble in a pond and watch ripples, tell me what comes up when you drop this question in)
Do you have any message for me? Is there anything you want me to know?
No message comes up. There are self critical thoughts " it just proves how stupid I am to injure myself in the first place"
Another thing from your answers, you say you are the judge. Or is judging something happening on automatic?
It is something automatic that I claim ownership of.
Look closer here.
Can you stop judging?
I can struggle against the judging but I can't stop it.
Can you judge differently?
The judgements are already formed and totally repetitive.
Or all those judgements are already given?
Yes, already given. The wording may change a little bit but basically the same over and over. Very repetitive judgements!

That's it for today.
Thank you Ilona!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:56 am

But it might help reduce the struggle with the pain. And reduce some of the emotional pain of life
Well, no. What reduces struggle is full and complete allowing. This is nothing to do with seeing that everything is happening by itself. There is one thing to realise no self, another thing is to say yes to everything as it is.
What we are dealing here with is resistance. Resistance to sensations. Resistance to resistance. Unless you start saying yes to all sensations, nothing will ever change in how you feel about what is.

So can you say yes to struggle? Can you say yes to pain?
It is here already. It does not ask you to accept it or to reject it it, it’s already present. Can you allow all feelings and sensations to be felt fully?

Is intensity not ok?

Write what comes up.
Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:35 pm

Hi Ilona
So can you say yes to struggle?
Yes. I am already struggling, so I must already be saying yes to it.
Can you say yes to pain?
It is here already. It does not ask you to accept it or to reject it it, it’s already present.
Yes. I am already in pain, it is here whether I accept it or reject it.
Can you allow all feelings and sensations to be felt fully?
Yes, sometimes. No sometimes.
Is intensity not ok?
Intensity is ok.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:21 pm

Thank you.

Coming back to the no self. Is there a self that feels sensation of pain? Is there a self that suffers emotionally? Have a good look and tell me, what do you find?

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:21 pm

Hi Ilona
Coming back to the no self. Is there a self that feels sensation of pain?
The body feels pain. The self is that which doesn't like the pain. The self is that which has preference.
Is there a self that suffers emotionally?
One hour a strong experience of a self that suffers, the next hour a weak experience of a self that suffers. The intensity of the self keeps shifting throughout the day.
Have a good look and tell me, what do you find?

The self is very slippery! One day the body is me, the next day it isn't. One day I am the thinker, the next day I am the listener of the thoughts. One day I am the one with preference, the next day I am the witness to preference. One day I am the body, the next day I am that which is aware of the body. There is a constant sense of being the self me, it doesn't stop, but what is identified as me keeps shifting around!

This is what's going on now
Thank you

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:50 am

What about there really is nothing there! It appears that there is, but it’s like an optical illusion. It seems so, but in actuality, there isn’t. Is that possible?

Look closer, what is really going on?

This video may help https://youtu.be/ab4XA685rxc

Is a self in the present or in thoughts about a self?

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:29 pm

Hi Ilona
What about there really is nothing there! It appears that there is, but it’s like an optical illusion. It seems so, but in actuality, there isn’t. Is that possible?
Yes it is completely possible.
Look closer, what is really going on?
I'm looking and looking but something isn't clicking...just don't see through the illusion no matter what I do to see through it....

This video may help https://youtu.be/ab4XA685rxc
I liked the video. The message was very clear and you look very bright and shiny!
Is a self in the present or in thoughts about a self?
The self is in the present, not in the thoughts. The thoughts are about the self, the thoughts are not the same as the self.

The self referencing thoughts go on and on and on! There may be some expectation that those those will stop or at least be fewer. Self referencing thoughts are almost constantly going on. What is the point of that? Don't I know how I feel without having to have a thought saying "I feel lonely" or whatever? How can so many thoughts be referring to something that is basically imaginary? The endless thoughts definitely do give a reality to the self I me. It would be easier to see through the illusion without all of these thoughts constantly reenforcing the belief in the self I me. I understand that thoughts won't stop, but the self referencing is kind of driving me bonkers! Why do the thoughts constantly recreate the I me self on a nearly nonstop basis? How to get free of this web of thought?

Ok I think I have said what I have to say for today. Thank you for your time! Hope you are well!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:58 am

There is nothing wrong with thinking, it continues and it will continue to talk about i me self, for a while.
Seeing throught illusion is seeing that words i me self are empty, they refer to nothing in actuality, they are labels, constructs of language and i is not an entity in charge. So you can use these words all day long, and not be fooled by appearance.
It’s like walking in a desert and seeing a mirage, some water in the distance. Then you go there and see it’s an illusion. And you keep walking and again see water in the distance. Again you run there and you see it’s a mirage. And so this continues, until you get it, you don’t need to run to check, you know it’s a mirage. The illusion does not stop. The knowing that it’s illusion dawns. You no longer get fooled by appearance.

Same is with thoughts, they say there is a me, that it is here, but where is that?
Keep checking in actuality, where is that me?

The sense of being is here, obviously, but is that sense an entity in charge? What can this sense do?

You say that self referencing drives you bonkers. ok, should it stop?
And what is that does not like this self referencing?
Is reaction to it something you do or something that shows up?

Explore this.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:08 am

Hi Ilona

The mirage continues to be experienced as real.

Am currently feverish with some bug that my body is fighting. This may be coloring my experience right now.
Same is with thoughts, they say there is a me, that it is here, but where is that?
The me is here. The me is formless. The me can not be found, yet here I am!

Keep checking in actuality, where is that me?
Me is here. Wherever the body is, there is also me.

The sense of being is here, obviously, but is that sense an entity in charge? What can this sense do?
This sense can do nothing. It just is. The sense itself isn't doing anything yet it is experienced and identified as me. The mind uses the sense of self to justify it's thoughts.

Youu say that self referencing drives you bonkers. ok, should it stop?
I would like it to stop or at least chill out a bit! What purpose could it serve to have a thought like "my knee hurts" when it's already known and felt and being experienced?

And what is that does not like this self referencing?
Now that's a good question!! I'm tempted to say that the mind doesn't like it, but then it is the mind that is doing it in the first place! I really have no clue as to what it is that is having that reaction. The reaction just happens in the same way that the thought just happens. Both are happening to ME.

Is reaction to it something you do or something that shows up?
Explore this
This is something that shows up. Usually I would say that I am doing it, but actually I'm not choosing to do it consciously, it just shows up in experience. Both the self referencing thoughts just show up and also the reaction to the thoughts just shows up! But there is a stronger identification with the reaction. Everything just shows up, but it shows up for ME.

There are thoughts about how much I dislike being sick, and also some anger about being sick. Am I doing any of it? It's all just happening but is all just happening TO ME.

This is the way things stand right now.
Thank you!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:45 am

Sorry to hear you are ill and I’m sending you warm wishes to help get well soon.

The me is here. The me is formless. How do you know that this formlessness is a me? Without imagining, where is the me?
Here i am, yes. There is a sense of being, sense of knowing that you are, sense of being aware. Undeniable. But is this sense a me? Or is it here with and without a label?

What is happening is that you take a label and assume that the label is an entity. A me seems to be an entity. An entity to which life is happening.

You can see a label on a coat. It says Armani. Now that coat becomes Armani and life is happening to Armani. Armani goes for a walk in the cold and Armani stays locked up in a wardrobe for summer. Armani is not happy, as it likes to go outside.

See?

There is sense of being. There is a label. The label is not an entity. A label is a convenience, an agreement. But not an alive entity.

Look outside, is life happening to a tree or as a tree? Is life happening to the word tree? Is tree separate from life? Or is it a label, that we are using to call that form and shape of life?

Now you can insist of assuming that label me is you or you can take a look and see what is the truth if it.

Write what comes up.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:54 pm

Hi Ilona
Sorry to hear you are ill and I’m sending you warm wishes to help get well soon.
Thank you. Fever is gone but still under the weather.

The me is here. The me is formless. How do you know that this formlessness is a me?
Not sure how I know. Same as how I know that unicorn is imaginary. I just know.
Without imagining, where is the me?
Nowhere.
Here i am, yes. There is a sense of being, sense of knowing that you are, sense of being aware. Undeniable. But is this sense a me?
The sense of self is not the self. The sense of me is not me.
Or is it here with and without a label?
Yes. It is here with or without a label
What is happening is that you take a label and assume that the label is an entity. A me seems to be an entity. An entity to which life is happening.

You can see a label on a coat. It says Armani. Now that coat becomes Armani and life is happening to Armani. Armani goes for a walk in the cold and Armani stays locked up in a wardrobe for summer. Armani is not happy, as it likes to go outside.

See?

There is sense of being. There is a label. The label is not an entity. A label is a convenience, an agreement. But not an alive entity.
That's a good story about Armani the jacket. I understand the difference between a label and an entity. Entity has volition and choice and consciousness and perception and reaction. Label is just a word.

Look outside, is life happening to a tree or as a tree?
Both. Life is appearing as a tree. Life is also happening to the tree.

Is life happening to the word tree?
No. Life doesn't happen to words.
Is tree separate from life?
Tree is separate object within life. Tree is not separate from life. Paradox.
Or is it a label, that we are using to call that form and shape of life?
The word "tree" is label but actual object is not a label.
Now you can insist of assuming that label me is you or you can take a look and see what is the truth if it.
Would love to stop insisting on me as separate self but I can't help it, it is just happening, regardless of how I would like my experience to be. It's all just happening, even my confusion and resistance to seeing through the illusion.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:16 am

Good to hear that you are feeling better.
Both. Life is appearing as a tree. Life is also happening to the tree.
Would you say that life is happening to life?

Yes, the reaction and insisting is just happening. It is good to notice, that you are not in control of it. It’s what is showing up. The confusion and resistance is on automatic too. What-is is asking for is to be seen, allowed.


https://youtu.be/LXrfQqvwIcU Here is a video for you. Look at how different words point to the same. Connect it to the sense of being. Write to me what you notice.
Love.


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