Freedom Now

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:17 am

Thank you for reply. Let’s investigate what is the difference between real and imaginary.
What I mean by real- it is that, which does not disappear when you stop imagining it. Let’s work with this definition for now.

Here is an exercise.
Close eyes and imagine that you are in your kitchen. Look around, see where the things are. Open cupboards, fridge, look through the window. Visualise as vividly as you can, including smell, sounds, colours. Open fridge and take something from there to eat. Run tap water and put hand under running water, check if it is cold or hot. Stay a few minutes in the kitchen observing.
Next, open eyes and go to the kitchen. Dow what you did in the first part. See where things are, eat something, listen to sounds, run tap water. Explore the kitchen with eyes and senses open.

Then write answers to these questions:

What is the main difference between real and imaginary?
How does the food taste in the imagination and reality?
How does water feel in imagination and reality?
Do you get to feel sensation in imaginary kitchen?

What happens to imaginary kitchen when you stop imagining it?
Can you make real kitchen disappear just like an image can disappear?


Do you need to assume that a unicorn is imagined or do you know that it is fiction?
Do you need to make really sure that a unicorn is not in a room right now?

Explore this and get back to me.

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:09 pm

Hi Ilona
Here is what is seen looking at imaginary kitchen vs. real kitchen
What is the main difference between real and imaginary?
Imaginary disappears when I stop thinking it and I open my eyes. Real has actual physical perceptions .
How does the food taste in the imagination and reality?
Imaginary food starts the mouth salivating but the taste is vague and boring. Real food also starts the salivating but has definite flavor and texture.
How does water feel in imagination and reality?
Imaginary water has no actual temperature or wetness. It does not wash the soap off of my hands. Real water has temperature, pressure, washes off soap.
Do you get to feel sensation in imaginary kitchen?
Imagined sensations can be felt slightly in the physical space but nothing like direct feeling sensations of actual reality.
What happens to imaginary kitchen when you stop imagining it?
It disappears leaving only a memory of it.
Can you make real kitchen disappear just like an image can disappear?
I can close my eyes or I can walk out of the room, but no, I can not make the real kitchen disappear.
Do you need to assume that a unicorn is imagined or do you know that it is fiction?
I know it is fiction.
Do you need to make really sure that a unicorn is not in a room right now?
No.

That's all for now.
Thanks!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:27 am

Great, thank you.
As you could notice, that being in imagined kitchen you could feel sensations. They were not as vivid and rich as being in real kitchen. But still, there were sensations arising and felt.

A unicorn is imagined and we can have stories about unicorn, feelings about unicorn, sensation when we thing about it but that knowing that it is fiction is there.

The separate self. Is it imagined or is it actual, vivid, rich experience, real actual perceptions?
Find the sense of separateness, what is separate from what and where it the line?

Explore this
Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:09 pm

Hi Ilona
As you could notice, that being in imagined kitchen you could feel sensations. They were not as vivid and rich as being in real kitchen. But still, there were sensations arising and felt.
Yes, that is accurate.
A unicorn is imagined and we can have stories about unicorn, feelings about unicorn, sensation when we thing about it but that knowing that it is fiction is there.
Yes, that is also accurate.

I have been exploring how thoughts create sensations. When I think of imaginary things there are sensations that come along with the thoughts. And when I think of real things there are sensations as well.

However the knowingness that it is imaginary (or real) is different from the sensations produced by thought. The knowing is distinct from the thought or the sensation.

The separate self. Is it imagined or is it actual, vivid, rich experience, real actual perceptions?
The sense of self is somewhat vague, not vivid. But am unable to say if it is real or imaginary. The experience of self is not vivid or rich yet the knowingness still says that it is completely real.
Find the sense of separateness, what is separate from what and where it the line?
Right now the edges of the body is the division between me and not-me.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:57 am

The sense of self is somewhat vague, not vivid. But am unable to say if it is real or imaginary.
Interesting. What is real is vivid and what is unreal is not. But with the self there is a hesitation to look at the imagined and see that as imagined. Is there fear to loose a self? To not exist? To disappear? What would life look like if there really are no separate selves at all?

What happens to the edges of the body when you sit with eyes closed? Examine, what is that we call body?
There are sensations and labels. There is sensation that we call left foot, top of the head, face, right hand.. and is it the body that feels sensation or body is a label for sensations? Are you inside the body or body is inside you? Is sensation skin inside or outside the body? Is sensation of thinking inside or outside the body?

With eyes open, what is being perceived we call colour. There are different colours and shapes. Some colour we a
Call me, some colour we call not me. What colour are you? Does colour alone inform you about a self? Is colour a sensation?
Is there an owner of colour?

Explore this close up and write what you discover.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:17 pm

The sense of self is somewhat vague, not vivid. But am unable to say if it is real or imaginary.
Interesting. What is real is vivid and what is unreal is not.
This is in reference to to thoughts creating sensations. The thing is that if I think of something imaginary (unicorn) there are vague sensations and the exact same thing happens if I think of something real (dog). It is not about vague vs. vivid as much as it about the "knowingness" of what is imaginary or real. Some thoughts refer to imaginary things and some thoughts refer to real things. Just because the sensations created by thoughts are vague does not prove imaginary or real.
But with the self there is a hesitation to look at the imagined and see that as imagined.
Yes, there is hesitation to see the self as imagined.
Is there fear to loose a self? To not exist? To disappear?
Yes, there is some fear but I'm not sure exactly what the fear is.
What would life look like if there really are no separate selves at all?
I'm sure that everything would look exactly the same as far as perceptions go. The emotional meaning of events would change because there would be no me here to feel praise or blame. Any accomplishments or achievements would be meaningless. Social relationship would be completely impersonal and meaningless. Truely nothing that I experience would would matter at all because there would be nobody here experiencing in the first place. Nothing would be experienced as being personal. Which on one hand is very freeing but on the other hand if there is no one here then what is the point of anything?
What happens to the edges of the body when you sit with eyes closed?
Edges of body are indistinct with eyes closed.
Examine, what is that we call body?
There are sensations and labels. There is sensation that we call left foot, top of the head, face, right hand.. and is it the body that feels sensation or body is a label for sensations?

"Body" is a label pointing at that which feels sensations.
Are you inside the body or body is inside you?
Both/neither. I am the body.
Is sensation skin inside or outside the body?
Sensation skin is the body. Not inside or outside.
Is sensation of thinking inside or outside the body?
Sensation of thinking appears within the body (head)

With eyes open, what is being perceived we call colour. There are different colours and shapes. Some colour we a
Call me, some colour we call not me. What colour are you?
No color. I am not a color.
Does colour alone inform you about a self?
No.
Is colour a sensation?
Does not feel like sensation.
Is there an owner of colour?
No.

That's it for today. I am curious about the knowing of imaginary vs. real. How do I know the difference? Memory plays a big part in it. And beliefs. Am looking into this. And yes, based on today's inquiry there are a number of fears/expectations that are still getting in the way.

Thank you for your time Ilona!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:25 pm

Quick answer for Now. More later.
Dog. Yes, you can imagine a dog and feel vague sensations. And you can meet an actual dog and have vivid sensations. And how is that with a separate self, aka me?

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:26 pm

Hi Ilona
Well this is interesting!
Quick answer for Now. More later.
Dog. Yes, you can imagine a dog and feel vague sensations. And you can meet an actual dog and have vivid sensations. And how is that with a separate self, aka me?
The sensations of me are mostly vague and diffuse, not vivid. The me gets more solid and vivid during times of emotional upset, frustration, sadness, anger, fear. The me sense is also more vivid in times of physical pain.

I don't see how I could see myself as any more vivid since I am not something that can be experienced through the senses directly, as I am the one who is perceiving through the senses.

Hmmmm there is something going on... Right now it is clear that ME can only be inferred through thought, there is no actual perception of me.... And yet... There is still this "knowing" of the reality of me! ... How does "knowing" work? How does "knowing" switch from "Yes I know I am real" into "There is no me, it's always been imaginary"...? How can it be "known" and experienced as reality, beyond just mind games? Well that's what we are doing here, but no matter what my mind may say there is still a commitment to maintaining the illusion of separate self! Right now it is clear that nothing that can be perceived that is "me". Yet there is still an experience of ME here!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:56 pm

There is experience. Sure. But there is a difference in saying that me does not exist as it was thought to exist and I do not exist. I do not exist is a lie. You are obviously here, can’t deny that. But the concept of I, me, as an image in imagination is fiction. I does not exist as an entity, that is separate from the whole. Can you see the difference?
Reality is. Existence is. This is. Being is.
I is added on. It’s simple to see, if you dare to look. And nothing real disappears or is threatened. It’s only the unreal is seen as such. The image is not you. The colours are not you. Sounds are not you, sensations, thoughts, feelings all come and go.
There is something here underneath all that comes and goes.
Sense of being.
Find that. Stay with that. Does it need a name?

Explore.
Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:41 pm


There is experience. Sure. But there is a difference in saying that me does not exist as it was thought to exist and I do not exist. I do not exist is a lie. You are obviously here, can’t deny that. But the concept of I, me, as an image in imagination is fiction. I does not exist as an entity, that is separate from the whole. Can you see the difference?
Reality is. Existence is. This is. Being is.
I is added on. It’s simple to see, if you dare to look. And nothing real disappears or is threatened. It’s only the unreal is seen as such. The image is not you. The colours are not you. Sounds are not you, sensations, thoughts, feelings all come and go.There is something here underneath all that comes and goes.
Sense of being.
Find that. Stay with that. Does it need a name?
No, sense of being does not need a name. But where is the freedom? Where is the liberation? I already know that I am not my self image, that is obvious, but where is the freedom? Where is the liberation from being the chooser/doer/experiencer? This is still not occuring....and I'm getting frustrated again. Just going around in circles

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:10 pm

Freedom is not from something. Freedom is to experience all is it is.
As long as you are looking for freedom from unwanted you are trapped in seeking. Allow all and here it is- freedom to feel all it shows up.
Nothing is being lost by that.

So what is here that does not like this?
What should be different?
It’s about the expectations again. And to stop going in circles go into experience that is happening here now. Is anything incomplete? What is wrong with this as it is?

Can life be as it is?
Does fighting what is help?

If not, would you like to be at peace with what is?

Explore this.
Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:32 am

Hello Ilona
Freedom is not from something.
Freedom from fear and resistance allows for the freedom for life to be experienced as it is
Freedom is to experience all is it is.
Yes.

As long as you are looking for freedom from unwanted you are trapped in seeking.
I am still trapped in seeking.
Allow all and here it is- freedom to feel all it shows up.
Nothing is being lost by that.
Yes, nothing is lost and nothing is gained.
So what is here that does not like this?
Me is here. I am here. I don't like this.
What should be different?
Me. I should be different than I am.
It’s about the expectations again.
Yes, expectations constantly get in the way.
And to stop going in circles go into experience that is happening here now. Is anything incomplete?
Yes, I am.incomplete.
What is wrong with this as it is?
Me. I should be different. My experience should be different.
Can life be as it is?
Life is as it is but it is not the way that I want it to be.
Does fighting what is help?
No it doesn't help but I do it anyway. I can't stop fighting.
If not, would you like to be at peace with what is?
Yes I would like to be at peace with what is

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:37 am

Thank you.
Life is as it is but it is not the way that I want it to be.
Thats right. And what do you want the most? What would satisfy you fully?

Love

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:44 pm

Hi Ilona
Life is as it is but it is not the way that I want it to be.
Thats right. And what do you want the most? What would satisfy you fully?
To answer your question in a nut shell: To live with no fears and no pains. Fearless and pain free.

I'm sure you will have some comments about how this is an impossible fantasy, but still, this is my dream.

And I'd like to add to that no more self-referencing critical thoughts and negativity.

I'm sure there are other desires as well, but these are the strongest ones that are the most important to me now.

Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:21 pm

One more thing:
Want the inner struggle to be ended, to be over with. External challenges are fine and sometimes even enjoyed but the inner struggle/ inner conflict needs to end now!!!


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