Freedom Now

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:06 pm

Hi Ilona

Thank you for your reply. I am ready to continue!
Have you done any therapy
Yes, I have been doing therapy for the past 35 years! With mixed results. Have done support groups. Have tried meds. Have done lots of spiritual practices. Yes there is still more work to do in regards to emotional regulation. I am still working on it! Sometimes I still get triggered but not as often as before.
my question for you is this - do you want Freedom or do you want control? And what is worse: absence of freedom or absence of control?

WANT FREEDOM!!!

Absence of freedom is worse than absence of control.

I am still considering the topic of control. Am feeling calmer and more able to focus today.

Little by little I am seeing this lack of control that you are pointing to. I have a lot of resistance! Is resistance the same as control? No. Resistance is an attempt at control. Can I control the resistance? No. Can I control my thoughts? No. Can I control the colors I see? No. Can I control the sounds I am hearing now? No. Can I control the sensations I feel on my body. No. Can I control what I want? No. Can I control the taste of salt? No.

I can attempt to alter my experience in some way but I can't control it. Is the attempt to alter the experience under my control? No.

What I have been calling "control" is actually the attempt to alter my experience. I can not really control anything. I can resist. I can try to alter the experience. But I can't control any of it.

Yes, the reason I have a big reaction to looking at "no control" is that there is a belief in an "I" who is being controlled. I see that. Yet the belief continues. Can I control this belief? No.

Bottom line is that there is a burning desire to be free of the belief in an "I" who needs to be in control!!! The need for control is very strong but the need for freedom is stronger!!!

Thank you Ilona
Take care!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:32 am

Thank you!
Big yes to freedom, nice.
Now here is another set of questions

Are you ready to be free?
And are you ready to be free NOW?

Write what comes up, when you consider this.
Is a no shows up, ask this- what is in the way?


Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:32 am

Hi Ilona
Are you ready to be free?
YES!!
And are you ready to be free NOW?
YES!!!

There is nothing that I need to accomplish before being free. There is nothing that I need to finish before being free. There is nothing I need to get before being free. I am fully open to being free NOW!

Thank you!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:10 pm

Wonderful!
Let this statement in and watch what is happening as you consider this

There is no separate self at all, none as in zero. No entity in charge of a separate piece of life. All there is is life flowing freely as everything. As thoughts, as emotions, as sensations, as sounds, as colours, as experiencing, as witnessing, as situations, as people, as everything... there is no one separate from this flow of totality. All is included. Freedom is to experience life as it shows up. And it’s already happening.

Write what arises as you play with this.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:55 pm

Hi Ilona
Let this statement in and watch what is happening as you consider this

There is no separate self at all, none as in zero. No entity in charge of a separate piece of life. All there is is life flowing freely as everything. As thoughts, as emotions, as sensations, as sounds, as colours, as experiencing, as witnessing, as situations, as people, as everything... there is no one separate from this flow of totality. All is included. Freedom is to experience life as it shows up. And it’s already happening.

Write what arises as you play with this.
Intellectually I am in full agreement with this, but the ongoing experience is not like this.The actual experience right now is that there is an I here now who desires to experience being more in the free flow of life as it spontaneously arises.

Am also noticing some fear around really being spontaneous in life. Like somehow all of my inhibitions will disapear and result in disaster. Probably an unrealistic fear but it's here in any case. It's ironic - I have a fear of loosing my fear!! Yet loosing my fear is also my greatest desire!!

Intellectually I could say that yes, all that is arising in experience is actually the spontaneous flow of life, all of it, even the apparent self, even the liberation of that apparent self, even this dialogue we are having, even the fears that come up, all of it, everything! And yet here "I" am, desiring to experience this as reality.

This has been interesting to ponder. The fear that came up was unexpected.
That's it for now.
Thank you!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:07 am

Is I something that is constantly here or something that spontaneously arises?

Yes, it’s interesting to notice, that there is fear of loosing fear.
So let’s have a closer look at this fear. It is here to protect. Can you see that? It’s here to keep something safe from something.
Can you look behind the fear and see what is there that needs this protection and from what exactly?
Does that protection help?
Is it still needed?
What do you get from this protection?

Write what you find.

Much love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:27 pm

Hi Ilona
Here is what I find in today's investigation of self and fear.
Is I something that is constantly here or something that spontaneously arises?
The I is constantly here from the time I wake up until I go to sleep. The I is also constant during dreams. The strength or intensity of the I can is flexible, sometimes the I is more in the forefront of conscious awareness, sometimes more in the background, but always present as part of the ongoing experience.
Yes, it’s interesting to notice, that there is fear of loosing fear.
So let’s have a closer look at this fear. It is here to protect. Can you see that?
Yes I can see that the fear is here to protect.
It’s here to keep something safe from something.
Can you look behind the fear and see what is there that needs this protection and from what exactly?
The fear is here to protect the body from physical harm. The fear is also to protect me from social hurts, or emotional pain. The fear is trying to protect the I-me-self from uncomfortable or painful feelings, either physical or emotional.
Does that protection help?
Yes it does help protect but at a huge cost. The fear protects me by keeping me inside my self imposed limitations and isolating behaviors. The fear itself is very uncomfortable and creates a lot of secondary frustration and suffering as well. Am unable to really participate in life in the ways that I want to participate.

Is it still needed?
Some part of me believes it is still needed as much as I want to be free of it.
What do you get from this protection?
I get to have some experience of safety, even though it causes me a lot of suffering as well. I have spent my entire life working to be free of fear, with very limited results.

I have a deep desire to be free of the fears! I am ready to be free of the fears NOW!

Thank you Ilona!
Looking forward to seeing where this goes next.
Take care!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:24 am

Thank you.
Here is an article about fear http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2014/ ... ation.html
I invite you to look behind it and see what is there, what is that I-me-self that needs protection experientially.
Does an idea need protection?
Does a concept need protection?
What is there that word me points to?
Explore this and write what you find.
No rush, we have lots of time.

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:22 pm

Hi Ilona
Here is an article about fear http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2014/ ... ation.html I

I invite you to look behind it and see what is there, what is that I-me-self that needs protection experientially.


One thing that I noticed about the fear is how often it is just a thought of being afraid, rather than any sort of visceral feeling of fear. Of course there are times of actual sensations of fear but often it is just a thought. Like when I wrote the other day that I have a fear of loosing my fear. That is actually a thought, not a sensation.

I can see that if there is no actual self then there is nothing to protect. The body still wants to avoid injury or pain, but fears regarding social or emotional pains are no longer anything real without a "me".

What is the I-me-self experientially?....... Body, sensations, mind, emotions, these are the parts that add up to the I-me-self. Intellectually I can say that the I-me-self is a belief that is experienced as a real thing. It's deeper than "just a thought", it is a deeply ingrained belief. That is the intellectual idea anyway. The experience is much more cloudy. It's hard to get a clear definite experience of the I-me-self. There is some vague feeling of being a "person" who is experiencing all of this. So then the next question to ask is: What is the experience of being a "person"? ..... I can't find an I-me-self with my senses! But it feels deeper than "just thoughts". So what else is there?? Deeply held beliefs...

Does an idea need protection?


No.
Does a concept need protection?


No.
What is there that word me points to?


This is the same as looking for the I-me-self. There is thought of "me". There is this body which is believed to be "me". There is this mind that is believed to be"me". There is all of the range of emotions that is believed to be "me". The word "me" refers to this particular person sitting here typing this right now. But again I can't find a me with the senses and it is much deeper than "just a thought", although there are endless thoughts that refer back to "I" and "me". Intellectually I am open to the idea that the I-me-self is actually a belief, yet there is a deep believing in this belief!

Thank you!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:31 am

Good work!
Take a look, me is an assumption, the idea is there must be an entity.
But have a look, is there?
The foggiest and cloudiness is here till you look directly and see what is there?

Is me a thinker or a thought?
Is I an entity or an idea?

If you look word university. You can say that it’s a concept, an agreement to call certain place and process by one word. But if I ask you to touch university, where would your thinker land? There are buildings, students, classrooms, computers, books, studying, listening.. but what is university in experience? Can you feel university? And yet there can be stories, memories, feeling of being at university..
consider that word me is a concept too..

Is there a sensation of separateness?

Write what you find.
Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:30 pm

Hi Ilona!
Take a look, me is an assumption, the idea is there must be an entity.
But have a look, is there?
The foggiest and cloudiness is here till you look directly and see what is there?


Sometimes (like now as I write this) the me is experienced as being very clear and spacious, like space. Not foggy. And at the same time no location can be found for me, not even "here". Yet still I am a real thing, even as empty space, so to speak. Not as "I am space" but more like I am clear beingness with no location.
Is me a thinker or a thought?
Me is not a thinker or a thought. Me is the one who is experiencing the thinking.
Is I an entity or an idea?


I am not an entity nor am I an idea. Of course there are thoughts *about* me, but I am not a thought. Right now I am the one experiencing all of this. I suppose you could say that I am the "experiencer", although I'm not at all sure what that is!!
If you look word university. You can say that it’s a concept, an agreement to call certain place and process by one word. But if I ask you to touch university, where would your thinker land? There are buildings, students, classrooms, computers, books, studying, listening.. but what is university in experience? Can you feel university? And yet there can be stories, memories, feeling of being at university..
consider that word me is a concept too..

Yes I understand what you are saying about adding up "parts" into a larger concept. Yet in my current experience there is just as much reality to certain concepts as there are to sensory perceptions. Of course I can not experience a concept using my sense perception. Yet certain concepts are just as "real" in my experience. To say that I am a concept is ok intellectually, I am fine with that as a definition, yet the concept is still experienced as being completely "real" or true.
Is there a sensation of separateness?

No, not exactly separate. It's more like being disconnected than separate. Like the sense of connection is very thin or like being slightly removed from what is going on. Not so much separate as just not very well connected.

Thanks for keeping me focused Ilona! Will continue to ponder these questions through the rest of the day.
Take care!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:27 am

Sometimes (like now as I write this) the me is experienced as being very clear and spacious, like space. Not foggy. And at the same time no location can be found for me, not even "here". Yet still I am a real thing, even as empty space, so to speak. Not as "I am space" but more like I am clear beingness with no location.
Wonderful. That it. And look now, is that formless spaciousness a thing? It is here, undeniably and obviously, underneath all labels. Does that space need an identity? Does it have a name? Explore that state and tell me, does beingness need to be an entity, need to have an identity? Or it simply IS?

In experience that is happening now, is there an experiencer gap experienced? Or experiencing is one happening? Is there a doer of experiencing? Or is it happening as a seamless flow?


Look again at labelling. See the body is breathing, breathing is happening, I am experiencing breathing, I am breathing, I am aware of breathing, I am in control of breathing, the air comes in and out, there is a sensation of breathing.. see how all these different ways to express tell a different story. But in actuality what is found is breathing..
apply this to experiencing, perceiving, observing.. is there I that does all that outside of language, in actuality? Is I the doer or a label?

Write what you notice.

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:10 pm

Hi Ilona!
Here is today's communication.
And look now, is that formless spaciousness a thing? It is here, undeniably and obviously, underneath all labels. Does that space need an identity? Does it have a name? Explore that state and tell me, does beingness need to be an entity, need to have an identity? Or it simply IS?
Space doesn't need an identity. Beingness doesn't need an identity either. Nothing needs an identity, yet here I am, the one who needs to have an identity. A frustrating paradox!
In experience that is happening now, is there an experiencer gap experienced? Or experiencing is one happening? Is there a doer of experiencing? Or is it happening as a seamless flow?
There is no gap, the experiencer is also part of the experience, influencing and interacting with the experience. But it is still definitely a subject/object relationship. Not a seamless flow. This is the way it is today. There is a chunky jagged discontinuity between "me" and the world. So hard to see through the self belief!

Look again at labelling. See the body is breathing, breathing is happening, I am experiencing breathing, I am breathing, I am aware of breathing, I am in control of breathing, the air comes in and out, there is a sensation of breathing.. see how all these different ways to express tell a different story. But in actuality what is found is breathing..
apply this to experiencing, perceiving, observing.. is there I that does all that outside of language, in actuality? Is I the doer or a label?
Today I is both doer and label. There is a sense of contraction in the body/mind complex that IS me. I don't know how to describe my experience exactly so that you know where I am at. It's like intellectually I get that the I-me-self thing is ultimately a non-existent creation, that the "I" is ultimately a belief that is unnecessary. Yet I can't actually experience this now. There is a memory of a state where all this was so obviously clear, but then the I belief came back once more and now it is totally real again.

I know that I'm living in this fantasy world yet it appears completely real. There must be a deep belief that is driving the creation of the "I" thoughts. The ongoing experience is that the "I" thoughts refer to an actual thing, an actual ME. Wanting to root out this belief! The "I" belief continues to run the show, even after being seen through! So frustrating!

Ok that's it for now
Thank you

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:28 am

Thank you for reply and being honest.
There is a chunky jagged discontinuity between "me" and the world. So hard to see through the self belief!
Isn’t that interesting!
Look at that discontinuity. Where is it felt? Is that sensation separate from the whole? Separate from life happening? Is life happening to the sensation or as sensation? Are you inside or outside this sensation?
Is muscular tension you?

It is hard to see through belief- that’s another belief. What is here is obviously here, plain and simple. Look around, there are colours, sensations, sounds. Obviously here. Can you see that life is showing up as these sensations, colours, sounds, feeling?

If you are looking for something that does not exist, how are you going to find it? Let’s try just for fun to look for a unicorn in your room right now. Where are you going to look for it? How do you know it is not there? Do you need to check all the corners tot know that the unicorn is absent? Can you see an absence of a unicorn?

You can see what is present. What is. What is here right now.
And how are you going to find an absence of something that does not exist?

Write what you discover.

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:54 pm

Hi Ilona


There is a chunky jagged discontinuity between "me" and the world. So hard to see through the self belief!
Isn’t that interesting! Look at that discontinuity. Where is it felt?


Discontinuity is more of a feeling tone than a physical sensation. More like an emotional feeling quality.
Is that sensation separate from the whole?


The discontinuity is not separate from the whole, it is part of the whole.
Separate from life happening?


No, not separate from life happening.
Is life happening to the sensation or as sensation?


Life is happening as the sensation.
Are you inside or outside this sensation?


The inside/outside shifts depending on the perspective I choose to see it from. I can identify with it and feel it inside me or I can step outside of it as the observer/experiencer.
Is muscular tension you?


Yes and no. Similar to the above. I can identify with the muscular tension as me or I can see it from outside as the observer/experiencer.
It is hard to see through belief- that’s another belief.
This comment was based on my actual experience. Of course it could also be a belief that is creating the experience.
What is here is obviously here, plain and simple. Look around, there are colours, sensations, sounds. Obviously here. Can you see that life is showing up as these sensations, colours, sounds, feeling?


Yes, this is how life is showing up right now. I am in full agreement with that!

If you are looking for something that does not exist, how are you going to find it? Let’s try just for fun to look for a unicorn in your room right now. Where are you going to look for it? How do you know it is not there? Do you need to check all the corners tot know that the unicorn is absent? Can you see an absence of a unicorn?


I assume that there is no actual unicorn in the room, but even that is a belief, that unicorns are imaginary. To really be sure I can look around the room and compare the sensory input to the imagined image of a unicorn. No unicorn is found right now. The absence is experienced by comparison between mental image and sensory perceptions.
You can see what is present. What is. What is here right now.
And how are you going to find an absence of something that does not exist?


The absence of something that does not exist is the same experience as the absence of something that actually does exist. Both depend on the comparison between sensory perceptions and memory. Going through my memories shows there is no memory of ever seeing a physical unicorn. (Plus I also have the belief that unicorns are purely imaginary).

This is how I know that my ex-girlfriend isn't in the room either. But she is a real person, just elsewhere in the world. I am aware of her absence in this way. But just because I don't see her in my current sensory perceptions doesn't mean that she doesn't exist in physical reality.

That's it for now
Thank you!


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