Freedom Now

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:25 am

I don't see anything. I am the one who is looking. I can not see my own I.
Here is the core.
I don’t see anything = there is nothing there. There is just looking. Seeing. Breathing, being, witnessing, knowing etc etc and there is nothing there doing that. It’s happening by it-self. Self=itself.

Sit with that. Write what comes up.

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:07 pm

Hi Ilona
I don't see anything. I am the one who is looking. I can not see my own I.
Here is the core.
I don’t see anything = there is nothing there. There is just looking. Seeing. Breathing, being, witnessing, knowing etc etc and there is nothing there doing that. It’s happening by it-self. Self=itself.
Sit with that. Write what comes up.
Mostly what comes up are resistant thoughts which say things like this: "Just because I can't see something doesn't mean it is not there. I can't see gravity. I can't see electricity. Or radio waves. Or the wireless phone signal. Can't see my own eyes. Or the bones in this body. Or brain. Or kidney, etc."

So that is what the resistant thoughts are saying. There are brief moments of a vague sense of looking just happening but it is a very subtle thing. There are moments of a more spontaneous flow of life with a lighter sense of "me" and there are times of a very solid heavy sense of me.

Not much else to report. Listening to your videos but nothing seems to be arising as far as any sort of realization or recognition.

Thank you

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:49 am

Sure thing, there is resistance as the structure is protecting itself. The point is to question your beliefs. To let the doubt in. To become sceptic investigator. If I sit and resist, that’s is a dead end. I continue as usual.
If I question beliefs— I am open, I don’t know, I want to see what it is! It takes courage and honesty to say, ok, I don’t know, show me.

The sense of me- what is that? How do you know that it is a “me”? Are you a sensation? Or do you know of sensation? Where are you in regards of the “sense of me”?

Love

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:55 pm

Hi Ilona
The sense of me- what is that? How do you know that it is a “me”? Are you a sensation? Or do you know of sensation? Where are you in regards of the “sense of me”?
Sense of self is a misidentification. It's actually a sensation of contraction, of separation, of tension.
It's like there is a belief in a self, so then there is a looking for something that is the "sense of self". It's like the belief is there before the physical sense of a "self". Like the belief is somehow looking for something to identify as sense of self and finds a sensation of contraction, tension, separation and labels that as sense of self. It's obvious that the "sense of self" is NOT the self. There has been a misidentification. Yet the belief in a self continues on, even as this has been recognized. It's like the belief used to look for some verification but now it is so ingrained that it continues on even without any sort of verification whatsoever. Belief in self continues even without any sort of "sense of self" to validate the belief.

Thank you

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 am

Very well expressed!
Yes, there is a belief that there is a self. In experience right here right now, is there a gap between you and what is happening?
You are aware of these words, are you doing the reading? Or is reading self happening? Can you look at letters on the screen and not read them?
If you look at word self and word itself, see what they point to.
Describe what you see.

Love

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:24 pm

Hi Ilona
Yes, there is a belief that there is a self. In experience right here right now, is there a gap between you and what is happening?
There is no gap. There is a cloud of fog between me and what is happening.
You are aware of these words, are you doing the reading? Or is reading self happening? Can you look at letters on the screen and not read them?
I say that I am doing the reading. There is the sense of ownership of doing the activity of reading.
If you look at word self and word itself, see what they point to.
Describe what you see
Self and itself are similar words, yes. "Self" is the me that is doing X. "Itself" is X being the doer of X. What I see is a self that is doing itself, which is me doing me, which doesn't make much sense, does it? What is interesting to me right now is the word "sense". To say that something doesn't make sense means it's not logical but then also it doesn't make a sensation. Like saying that the sense of self doesn't make sense is nonsense. Nonsensical concepts don't make sense (don't make sensations). Ok well I'm.probably just playing with words here, like making puns.

I have been listening to hours and hours of Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, Kenneth Madden. Totally resonate with what I am hearing. Moments of lightness of self, very subtle, but no falling away of self as a result. Entertaining to listen in any case.

Am totally burned out with Covid isolation. I know that's not relevant to what we are doing here but wanted to say it anyway.

Ok that's it.
Thank you Ilona!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:58 am

Thank you for reply. I hear you about the struggle with isolation. It’s no fun. Here we have a new quarantine till the end of January. All this makes no sense, but it’s here to be met. So be it.
Hope you have some friends you can chat online.
There is no gap. There is a cloud of fog between me and what is happening
Let’s look at that cloud. What is there? What is the function of that cloud?
I say that I am doing the reading. There is the sense of ownership of doing the activity of reading.
Let’s look at the sense of ownership here. And for that here is a video to help. https://youtu.be/JelAgMEgk6U

Do you own sensations?
What is that claims ownership?
Let’s find out.


Love

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:07 pm

Hi Ilona

There is no gap. There is a cloud of fog between me and what is happening
Let’s look at that cloud. What is there? What is the function of that cloud?

The function is unknown. The cloud is really just a metaphor. It is like the separation is foggy, there is not a clear dividing line or gap. It is more a feeling of being at a distance from life but at the same time it's not a physical distance. It's just like I am not fully present, not fully engaged. Like my mind or awareness is foggy.

I say that I am doing the reading. There is the sense of ownership of doing the activity of reading.
Let’s look at the sense of ownership here. And for that here is a video to help. https://youtu.be/JelAgMEgk6U
Video is good. I agree and understand intellectually but the ongoing experience continues. There is some expectation that since the ownership issue was seen through once that it should fall away permanently, but it hasn't.
Do you own sensations?
I don't own the sensations but I own the experience of feeling the sensations.
What is that claims ownership?
Unknown. Ownership is claimed, that much is seen. Ownership occurs.

Am filled with intense longing to end the frustration of being this separate self. Have lived life bursting with frustration and banging against the walls of personal limitations. Have spent life with all sorts of strategies to end the frustration but nothing has worked. Previously there were many reasons for the frustration, such as having excessive fears and thus unable to satisfy desires. But desires are endless and basically insatiable in any case. Am now thinking that the dissatisfaction and frustration is basically the result of the experience of being a self that is separate from the whole. Like being a separate self-directed individual is the cause of the frustration. Well there is more to look into here no doubt!

Ok that's it for now.
Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:31 am

The function is unknown. The cloud is really just a metaphor. It is like the separation is foggy, there is not a clear dividing line or gap. It is more a feeling of being at a distance from life but at the same time it's not a physical distance. It's just like I am not fully present, not fully engaged. Like my mind or awareness is foggy.
How about this- there is awareness of fogginess. The awareness is not foggy in itself, there is knowing of fogginess. Knowing is not obstructed by fogginess.

Let’s dive in that fog. Is it really here? On one hand you can see that there is no gap. On another you say that there is. Which is it? Does knowing of fogginess makes a gap between you and life? Or is it all life showing up as you and fogginess?
Am now thinking that the dissatisfaction and frustration is basically the result of the experience of being a self that is separate from the whole. Like being a separate self-directed individual is the cause of the frustration. Well there is more to look into here no doubt!
Well, no, you are not separate from the whole, you only think you are. And that thought up character can not become the whole. So let’s turn attention to wholeness, it’s already here. Everything is happening by itself. Including thoughts, feeling, sensations, ideas, frustrations etc.

The solution to imaginary problem lies in stopping imagining it.
So explore, what is here underneath the idea of separateness, how do you notice wholeness?

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:59 pm

Hello Ilona
How about this- there is awareness of fogginess. The awareness is not foggy in itself, there is knowing of fogginess. Knowing is not obstructed by fogginess.
Sure, I'm ok with that. There is awareness of fogginess but awareness is not itself foggy. Ok. Yes agreed.
Let’s dive in that fog. Is it really here? On one hand you can see that there is no gap. On another you say that there is. Which is it? Does knowing of fogginess makes a gap between you and life? Or is it all life showing up as you and fogginess?
There is actual gap or actual fog. These are metaphors. When I say that I feel distant from.life, this is a metaphor!! Do you understand about metaphors? There is no actual gap or fog or distance. There is no actual physical distance between me and life. Saying that I feel removed from life is a metaphor.

How can I describe it without using metaphors? One way to say it would be that I feel only half alive, only partially present to what is occuring.
Well, no, you are not separate from the whole, you only think you are. And that thought up character can not become the whole. So let’s turn attention to wholeness, it’s already here. Everything is happening by itself. Including thoughts, feeling, sensations, ideas, frustrations etc.
Yes, yes, yes, I understand all that. But understanding is not liberation. There is no current experience that everything is happening by itself. Some things are, and some things aren't.
The solution to imaginary problem lies in stopping imagining it.
So explore, what is here underneath the idea of separateness, how do you notice wholeness?
All I notice is impatiance and frustration. Again there is intellectual understanding but understanding isn't freedom.

I am not physically seperate. There is no actual physical gap. Any description of gap or fog or distance is purely metaphor.

Even if the I is purely imaginary, i see no way for I to stop imagining the I.

I am still an "I". There is me here writing this, making choices, having responsibilities, regrets, fears. Being the "doer" of this body/mind. Being responsible for making things happen or not happen. And I am talking about making things happen as far as projects or travel or work, or housing, or relationship, I am NOT talking about making breathing happen, or seeing or physical sensations. I am not talking about involuntary bodily functioning, I am talking about higher level social functioning in the world, making choices and taking actions based on those choices.

Ok that's it for now
Thank you.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:25 pm

CORRECTION: The sentance in the last post "There is actual gap or actual fog" should read "There is NO actual gap or actual fog"

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:00 am

Thank you for answer.
There is no current experience that everything is happening by itself. Some things are, and some things aren't.
Can you be precise here, what exactly is not happening by itself?

The vagueness, half aliveness, gap, fogginnes, different words pointing to the same in experience. Use the mind, focus and find what is not on automatic.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:21 pm

Hi Ilona
There is no current experience that everything is happening by itself. Some things are, and some things aren't.
Can you be precise here, what exactly is not happening by itself?

The vagueness, half aliveness, gap, fogginnes, different words pointing to the same in experience. Use the mind, focus and find what is not on automatic.
I thought I described this in my last post but here it is in list form.

Not automatic:
me here writing this
making choices
taking actions in the world.
Being responsible for making things happen or not happen.
Making things happen as far as projects or travel or work, or housing, or relationship,
Making choices and taking actions based on those choices.

Automatic:
breathing
seeing
hearing
physical sensations
digestion
blood flow
bodily functioning
emotions arising
thoughts arising

What is also automatic is me being me, me being an individual, me being a so-called "self". The I-me-self is completely automatically arising. There is absolutely no choice about being the I-me-self, it is happening entirely on its own. I can not stop the I, nor am I creating or doing the I. The I is happening automatically, then the I is also automatically claiming to be the chooser and the doer.

That's it for now
Thank you.

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:39 pm

Yes, The i is happening automatically as a claimed of experience.
Your list of what is not happening automatically is an invitation to look closer, what is happening, really?
As you see the credit is claimed automatically.
I am choosing, I am typing, I am deciding what to write. But look closer. Is that so? Do you choose what words show up? Or do they show up?

What would the world look like if it really is no doer? What would be different?
Imagine.


Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:27 am

Hi Ilona
I am choosing, I am typing, I am deciding what to write. But look closer. Is that so? Do you choose what words show up? Or do they show up?
Having no choice does not dissolve the I, it's just that now it appears that there is an I-me-self that has no choice. Where previously there was an I-me-self *with* choice, there is now an I-me-self *without* choice. The I-me-self persists with choice or without choice. Even with no choice there is still an I here saying it has no choice.

Thank you


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