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Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:10 pm
by Ilona
Aha! They just appear. Just like colours, sounds, sensations etc.
Free flowing experience that includes all forms.

Have a look, what happens, when you ask this question:
Is there a thinker?

Love.

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:49 pm
by MeFree
Hi Ilona
Have a look, what happens, when you ask this question:
Is there a thinker?
When I ask this question there is a thought that says "I am the thinker". Not sure what the subject in this thought is.
Don't know if the I thought points to a "me" or if the I thought points to a mind. Or maybe it points to whatever is generating the thoughts in the first place.

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:23 am
by Ilona
Look closer, you already see that a thought can not think. Is I a thought or a thinker?
Is voice in the head the thinker? Or is it all thoughts, one after another, one by one?
Where are the thoughts coming from?
Do they need a generator?
Do colours seen need a generator?

Love

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:15 pm
by MeFree
Hi Ilona
Look closer, you already see that a thought can not think. Is I a thought or a thinker?
I is a thought that refers to a thinker but it is not known exactly what this thinker is. Or where it is.

The thoughts appear to refer to a me/I but what it is not known what that me/I is.

Sometimes the I refers to the creator of thoughts, sometimes I refers to the listener of thoughts, sometimes I is the thought itself.
Is voice in the head the thinker?
Well it certainly appears that way, yes.
Or is it all thoughts, one after another, one by one?
Usually one by one. But sometimes an idea an show up as one big chunk.
Where are the thoughts coming from?
Completely unknown.
Do they need a generator?
I believe that they need a generator. Although they do seem to come out of nowhere, there is the belief that they must be created by something.

No generator of thoughts seems so illogical. But I guess it is possible. Just hard to really grasp.
Do colours seen need a generator?
No colors do not need a generator.

What generated the universe? No creator? Just appearing out of nowhere?

Having a hard time with the idea of no generator, no subject. I'm not saying that it isn't possible but my mind just keeps rejecting it...

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:22 am
by Ilona
Thanks my friend.
I is a thought that refers to a thinker but it is not known exactly what this thinker is. Or where it is.

The thoughts appear to refer to a me/I but what it is not known what that me/I is.
The real question is “Is there a thinker at all?” “Is there I at all”?

Is there a need for a thinker for thoughts to arise?
Is there a need for a breather for breathing to be happening?
Is there a need for a reader, for reading to be happening?

I believe that they need a generator. Although they do seem to come out of nowhere, there is the belief that they must be created by something.
Let’s look at this. There is a belief that there must be a generator, because it is impossible for the thoughts to just arise out of nowhere.

In experience what is seen is that thoughts arise from nowhere by themselves. It’s already happening. And without an added idea it is simply what is.

Wait for the next thought and see for yourself. Where is it coming from? What is a difference between “it seems” and “I see, it’s clear and obvious”?

Thought says there must be a generator, according to who? Who needs a generator?
Is there a generator for a wind, for the rain, for the seasons of the year?
It’s all naturally happening: sun rises, trees grow, humans go about their daily business.

How do you see that? Is there a general manager of the universe?

Love.

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:02 pm
by MeFree
Hi Ilona
The real question is “Is there a thinker at all?” “Is there I at all”?
This is the real question! Yep, agreed! No definitive answer at this time.
Is there a need for a thinker for thoughts to arise?
Definitely have belief that thoughts come from somewhere, even though in actual experience they just come out of nowhere.
Is there a need for a breather for breathing to be happening?
No need for a "breather". It is the body that is breathing automatically. It can be modified temporarily by conscious choice. Don't know where that conscious choice comes from though. Does it need a "chooser"? It seems that the chooser is "me", but in actual experience even conscious choice also comes out of nowhere!
Is there a need for a reader, for reading to be happening?
Again, there is a belief in some subject that is doing the reading but that subject can't be found in actual experience.
I believe that they need a generator. Although they do seem to come out of nowhere, there is the belief that they must be created by something.
Let’s look at this. There is a belief that there must be a generator, because it is impossible for the thoughts to just arise out of nowhere.
yes, exactly.
In experience what is seen is that thoughts arise from nowhere by themselves. It’s already happening. And without an added idea it is simply what is.
Yes. So thoughts come out of nowhere and refer to an imaginary self.... hmmmm.... On one level everything experienced just "comes out of nowhere", but that's kind of overwhelming... Even the sense of self comes out of nowhere.... No generator and no subject? Yikes!
Wait for the next thought and see for yourself. Where is it coming from?
The thought comes from nowhere. But it also isn't a random thought. There are patterns of thought that are identifiable and consistent that all refer back to a central character (me). It's not like they are random thoughts referring to someone from Nigeria or Iceland or someone else's mind/life. The consistent patterns give more solidity to the sense of the I-me-self.
What is a difference between “it seems” and “I see, it’s clear and obvious”?
"It seems" means that I don't really know what is going on. "I see, it's clear, obvious" means that the actuality is being known.
Thought says there must be a generator, according to who? Who needs a generator?
There is something in this body/mind system that expects a generator.
Is there a generator for a wind, for the rain, for the seasons of the year?
That is unknown.
It’s all naturally happening: sun rises, trees grow, humans go about their daily business.
Yes. This was truely experienced at one time. There was a short period of time when all of life (including me) was just happening completely on its own. All of the activities of "me" were occuring just like the wind and the waves. But then the state shifted again and I was back in the place of being the doer. So I know what you are saying, but still, this is not the way it is experienced as the ongoing reality.
How do you see that? Is there a general manager of the universe?
No I do not see a general manager of the universe. But I do see myself as the manager for my own individual life. Do not currently experience my self actions as being like the weather, although that is a lovely state to be in!

Thank you!

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:16 am
by Ilona
Thank you for answers, good work.
This is the real question! Yep, agreed! No definitive answer at this time.
What is the answer that you get? Is there I in charge of own separate piece of life?
. But I do see myself as the manager for my own individual life.
Is batman in charge of the story about batman? Is batman decision maker of what happens in the story about batman?
Is story about you comes from a separate self or ABOUT a separate self? Does the story come from me or about me?
Explore this closer.

The experience is always the same, coming and going, flowing freely, no one is making it happen. If you are here making it happen, what are you making happen right now?


Love.

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:08 pm
by MeFree
Hi Ilona
The real question is “Is there a thinker at all?” “Is there I at all”?
This is the real question! Yep, agreed! No definitive answer at this time.
What is the answer that you get? Is there I in charge of own separate piece of life?

Ok logically I can see that there is not a separate I in charge of a separate piece of life, yet that is the way it is experienced.

I am not trying to be difficulty here! It's just that it really is experienced that I have some voluntary choices about some things in life. If there was no "I" then there would be no voluntary actions.

Is batman in charge of the story about batman?
No. Batman is a character. The author of the Batman story is in charge.

Is batman decision maker of what happens in the story about batman?
No. The author of the Batman story is the decision maker.
Is story about you comes from a separate self or ABOUT a separate self? Does the story come from me or about me?
It is both. The story comes from me AND is about me. I am creating the story of me. I am the author of my own story about the character that I am playing in life.
The experience is always the same, coming and going, flowing freely, no one is making it happen. If you are here making it happen, what are you making happen right now?
I am driving the car. I am deciding what to eat. I am in charge of where I go. Again, there are voluntary actions that I make happen. I understand that I'm not in charge of involuntary actions, such as perceptions occuring or bodily functioning. Yet if there was no "I" there would be no voluntary actions. Well this is the way things appear right now.

I saw your video "Can the self come back". Was good. I really thought that the glimpse that occured a couple of weeks ago was the final recognition but apparently there is still some resistance floating around here!

Thank you!
Lots of appreciation!

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:06 am
by Ilona
Very interesting
It's just that it really is experienced that I have some voluntary choices about some things in life. If there was no "I" then there would be no voluntary actions.
Let’s test this idea.
Notice breathing. It’s here all the time and while you sleep too. So becoming conscious of breathing do you choose to breathe? Or you are noticing what is already happening? Can you choose to stop breathing for half hour? Try and see what happens.

The attention Is on breathing, then we call that conscious breathing. Does that mean you become a breather? Dos breathing process need a breather? Do you need to be a breather for breathing to be happening?

Now apply this to thinking. There is thinking process happening and you are aware of that. You see thoughts come and go. And because you are conscious of thinking, do you become a thinker? Do you become a chooser?

Choose one hand and lift it up, just for fun, to see how this works. Read further after you done it.
Did you lift right or left?
Did you lift the hand or not?
Whatever happened, was it your choice? Did you know what will happen before it happened?

Try again just to see how this works. Lift one hand up.
Can you check and see what happens first, action, impulse or thoughts?

What was that lifted the hand?

Explore this through the day and write what you notice.
Love

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:24 pm
by MeFree
Hi Ilona
Notice breathing. It’s here all the time and while you sleep too. So becoming conscious of breathing do you choose to breathe?
No I do not choose to breathe. But as I said in my last post: bodily functions and perceptions are involuntary, I have no choice in the matter. Unless I choose to end this life (which I am not going to do).
Or you are noticing what is already happening?
Noticing what is already happening.
Can you choose to stop breathing for half hour? Try and see what happens.
No that doesn't work. As I said, it is an involuntary activity.
The attention Is on breathing, then we call that conscious breathing. Does that mean you become a breather?
No. I do not become anything. Breathing is already happening. But I can choose to alter my breathing for a period of time
Dos breathing process need a breather?
No it needs a body.
Do you need to be a breather for breathing to be happening?
No. It is an involuntary bodily process. Breathing has nothing at all to do with the reality or non-reality of self. It is an involuntary bodily process that can be modified for a short time by conscious choice. This is true if there is a seperete self or there is no seperete self. The question I have is more about the conscious choice, is it voluntary or not?
Now apply this to thinking. There is thinking process happening and you are aware of that. You see thoughts come and go. And because you are conscious of thinking, do you become a thinker?
No. I do not become the thinker, I already am the thinker. But I can consciously chose to influence the thoughts for a short period of time.
Do you become a chooser?
No I do not become the chooser because I already am the chooser.

Choose one hand and lift it up, just for fun, to see how this works. Read further after you done it.
Did you lift right or left?
Did you lift the hand or not?
Whatever happened, was it your choice? Did you know what will happen before it happened?

Try again just to see how this works. Lift one hand up.
Can you check and see what happens first, action, impulse or thoughts?

What was that lifted the hand?

Explore this through the day and write what you notice.
I don't know the process involved in lifting the hand. I just decide to lift it and it happens. Nerve impulses or whatever. But still, regardless of the process of how hand lifting works, I am the one who is deciding to do this experiment throughout the day or deciding not to do it.

Perceptions and bodily functions are involuntary. Making choices is voluntary. I am in charge of the voluntary choices such as where to go shopping, what to buy, what to eat, what to study at school, where I live, what type of work I do, on and on. Am not in charge of bodily functions such as breathing or digestion or blood flow. If this body gets sick I am in charge of choosing what medications to take. There are things that I am in charge of and things that I am not in charge of. Bringing my attention to things I that I am not in charge of does not change this.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as voluntary action? No voluntary choice? I see that there is a conceptual distinction between voluntary and involuntary activity, but it also is reality (as I experience it).

Thank you!

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:24 am
by Ilona
What I’m saying there is no chooser. There is a choosing, but no chooser. Just like there is breathing , but no breather. There is voluntary moving, acting, as in opposition to involuntary, but that does not mean there is a mover.

The subject is part of language. In actuality action flows, choosing happens. Anything that is chosen comes out of given situation and it feels like the best choice. But regardless what is chosen (right, left, back, forward) the narrative about it says “I chose it” What is that I?

If you are the chooser, did you choose how this life should be, where you live, how you live, who you live with? Is this what you chose or what is given? Can you choose and be someone else, a different person with different likes and dislikes? Can you choose to stop choosing?

What are you choosing now that is not simply happening by IT-SELF?

Love.

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:04 am
by MeFree
Hi Ilona
What I’m saying there is no chooser. There is a choosing, but no chooser. Just like there is breathing , but no breather. There is voluntary moving, acting, as in opposition to involuntary, but that does not mean there is a mover.
Thank you for that clarification!
The subject is part of language. In actuality action flows, choosing happens. Anything that is chosen comes out of given situation and it feels like the best choice. But regardless what is chosen (right, left, back, forward) the narrative about it says “I chose it” What is that I?
Right now that I is a thought plus a feeling.

Have been looking at thoughts again and what I notice is this:

There are *thoughts* about a self that perpetuate the belief in a separate self, and we look at that a lot in this dialogue. And there are also *FEELINGS* about a self that perpetuate the belief in a self that is separate from life.

So then the question arises: Are the feelings that I have coming FROM a self or are they ABOUT a self?

Both! Thoughts/feelings come from the self ABOUT the self. It is a closed loop. The self creates thoughts/feelings in order to perpetuate the self.
If you are the chooser, did you choose how this life should be, where you live, how you live, who you live with?
Did not choose how life is.
Did choose how life should be.
Did choose where to live.
Chose some elements of how I live.
Did choose who to live with.
Did not choose my family.
Did choose my friends.
Is this what you chose or what is given?
Some of each. The choices were selected out of the range of options of what is given.
Can you choose and be someone else, a different person with different likes and dislikes?
No but I sure do try sometimes. There was a childhood belief that I "should have been someone else".

Can you choose to stop choosing?
No I can't choose to stop choosing. Well I can decide to choose that, but that doesn't mean it will happen.
What are you choosing now that is not simply happening by IT-SELF?
Hmmmm..... Am currently agonizing over a decision about where I am going to live this winter. This agonizing was not chosen by me. But I do need to decide and feel a great deal.of pressure and stress about making the "right" choice.

I have been looking at being the chooser and noticed this:

Am very much attached to be the "chooser". Seems very scary otherwise. Even though it would free me from self attacks about making poor choices.... I do know that in my night time dreams there is no sense of making choices, things just happen, one after another.... Being the chooser gives me some sense of safety, security, control, agency. But it also brings a lot of stress and regret....

Making the "wrong" choice leads to possible disaster, trauma, injury. Making the "right" choice leads to possible love, happiness, freedom, enjoyment.

Letting go of being the chooser could be very freeing, I can see that. Yet there is also some strong resistance as well. And as discussed above, I can't choose to stop choosing either....

Ok that's it for now.
Thank you!

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:43 am
by Ilona
Thank you for reply. Here is something to zoom in
Both! Thoughts/feelings come from the self ABOUT the self. It is a closed loop. The self creates thoughts/feelings in order to perpetuate the self.
The loop is there because you think that thoughts about the self come from the self. Sure thing, it’s a circular thinking, a feedback loop that feeds itself. But where is this self from which thoughts come? :)

Does story about Santa come from Santa? Then where is that Santa, that all stories about Santa come from? Is there a container with a label “Santa” as a source of stories? Does Santa choose what kids were good this year and then he decides what presents to bring? < does all this story came from Santa? Or is it a story about Santa?

Look at your character, does story about your character comes from the character, as if it is the character that is the source of its own story? To break the loop question the idea of the self as a source of the story. It is the outcome of the story and the story comes by itself.
Did not choose how life is.
Did choose how life should be.
Did choose where to live.
Chose some elements of how I live.
Did choose who to live with.
Did not choose my family.
Did choose my friends.
It’s not a questions of choice, but a question of a chooser. Is character in the story choosing what happens? Or is it a story about the character that apparently chooses what happens? A story about a chooser? Where is the chooser without the story?

There are no right and no wrong choices, there is life happening as all conditions come together. Grasping and holding on ideas included. What is that is holding on to being a chooser? What is that needs an identity? What is that is scared to loose identity?

Explore this deeply. Face it. There is no chooser, no manager of life. There is life happening as all choices, intentions, desires, actions, reactions, all given.

Love.

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:53 pm
by MeFree
Hi Ilona

Very frustrated and irritated today!
where is this self from which thoughts come? :)
The source of thoughts is unfindable. Where is the source of emotions about a self? Seems to come from the body but also basically unfindable.

Does story about Santa come from Santa? Then where is that Santa, that all stories about Santa come from? Is there a container with a label “Santa” as a source of stories? Does Santa choose what kids were good this year and then he decides what presents to bring? < does all this story came from Santa? Or is it a story about Santa?

Some human mind in the past created the story of Santa and it was passed on generation after generation as a way for parents to laugh at the gullibility of their innocent children. There is nothing charming about kids having their hearts broken upon learning the truth. PS. This whole thing about Santa is very irritating. Santa, or Batman, or Spiderman, it's all imaginary characters created by someone's imagination. Whether or not the author of the story is a self or is not a self is not being addressed using this metaphor. Let's talk about real people. Is Donald Trump a self? Or just life happening with no individual self?

Look at your character, does story about your character comes from the character, as if it is the character that is the source of its own story? To break the loop question the idea of the self as a source of the story. It is the outcome of the story and the story comes by itself.

I am not a story. Unlike Santa I am a living breathing human being. There may be a story about this living breathing human being but seriously there is more going on than just a story!

It’s not a questions of choice, but a question of a chooser. Is character in the story choosing what happens? Or is it a story about the character that apparently chooses what happens? A story about a chooser? Where is the chooser without the story?
"I" is not a character. The character "My Name" is a character. The psychology and conditioning is the character. The I-me-self comes before the character. I get that I am not the character. I am the I.
There are no right and no wrong choices, there is life happening as all conditions come together. Grasping and holding on ideas included. What is that is holding on to being a chooser? What is that needs an identity? What is that is scared to loose identity?

The social mind is scared to loose identity. The oppressive mind is scared to allow freedom. The traumatized mind is scared to loose identity. The belief in being the chooser gives the traumatized mind a security blanket to hold on to.

Explore this deeply. Face it. There is no chooser, no manager of life. There is life happening as all choices, intentions, desires, actions, reactions, all given.
Well now all that is happening is that the resistance is getting more entrenched in maintaining the current position!

So much resistance! Just want to be released from this constant tension!!!! Call it resistance or anxiety or fear or anger or trauma or contraction or separate self or whatever you want to call it but really it is just this constant tension in the mind/emotions/body system.
.... Just such intensely strong desire to be released from the ongoing tension that goes on and on all the freaking time!!!

There is the possibility that this constant tension is actually a result of belief in seperete self. Or as result of conflict about letting go of this belief.

The tension is partly about circumstances but the chronic quality is totally independent of circumstances.

Could be the ptsd but seems deeper and more basic than that. Maybe both. The ptsd mind is prolonging the agony by gripping onto the illusionary self as a safety mechanism or security blanket.

The gripping onto the illusion of self is a security blanket. Being the "chooser" gives the illusion of being able to control situations/life to avoid further trauma or re- traumatization.

This is what is coming up today.
Thank you for your time!

Re: Freedom Now

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:14 am
by Ilona
Thank you for sitting down and writing all this out. You can see the mechanisms and how they function to protect from trauma. Yes there is holding on to the idea of being a chooser to feel more secure.

Let’s look right there. You are here right this moment. Reading these words. Aware of the letters on the screen. You don’t need to do anything about it, it’s simply happening. You don’t need to choose or decide anything, this moment is already here as it is and it’s not possible to change it. Is there a chooser right here right now?
What comes up when you ask this?

If so what is it choosing right now? And can he choose differently than what is already here?
What do you notice?


As for separate selves in real people, well, once it’s clear that there is no separate self this question gets answered.
It seems that thinking about division creates division. But the concept of division is only in the mind, The actually is undivided.
Is there anyone outside of life, separate from life?

Love