Freedom Now

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:47 pm

Hi Ilona
You ask some very good questions! I am sorry my answers (insights/understandings) are not so good. Feeling very inadequate when it comes to all of this.... In any case here is what I have.
What problem does self hate fix?
I don't know for sure. It could be that turning my anger against myself instead of others somehow keeps me safe from those others. But it also has a quality of self punishment as well. I punish myself for being fearful and for being inadequate/incapable.
Is it useful?
No.
Is it helping?
No.
Is it necessary?
It is a compulsive activity, outside of my control, like binge eating. It just happens no matter what I tell myself about it.
Who did you learn that from?
I assume parents.
When was the first time you felt self hatred?
Childhood. I don't recall a particular age.
What was the situation? Describe.
Wanting to do something but being too scared to do it. Over and over again. Hating myself for being so fearful and incapable of overcoming that fear.
Other times the thought me refers to the being.
Right, that’s the illusion we are looking at. A being. There is no actual entity as a separate from the whole being. If you take word being and see it as a verb. It is here, always, being, knowing, aware space in which all the content shows up and is experienced.

Can you feel that sense of being?
Sense of being and sense of self feel the same.
Is that a being doing being?
Yes. Being is happening on its own but then the "happening-on-its-own" being has to do other things in life. Like work, play, interact, all of the social survival stuff. Relationships, communication, make choices, decisions, go to school, make money, pay bills, on and on. Being created the individual being but then there are endless demands on the individual being.
What do you do in order to be?
No matter what I do I continue to be. Unless I do something to end this individual being.
What do you need to do in order to be?
To exist I need to do very little. Eat, sleep. Stay safe. Need to provide for physical needs to continue being.

Or being is on by default, unstoppable and without a pause?
Yes being just goes on and on until the individual being dies.

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:12 am

Thank you for taking time and care answering these questions.
You say about self punishment and that may protect you from others. Is that true? Is self punishment giving safety?
What happens when you punish yourself? Do you feel safe, content, centred, grounded, at ease? Or is this giving another chance to contract, feel small and suffer?
Which do you prefer?
And if self punishment is not working, do you still need to engage in those thoughts?
Is it safe to let go of this pattern?
Or do you need it in order to feel safe?

Are you safe right now?


Is life happening on its own? What is not happening on automatic?

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:02 pm

Hi Ilona
You say about self punishment and that may protect you from others. Is that true? Is self punishment giving safety?
I think there is a misunderstanding here. They are two separate things. I was looking at self hatred and what it does for me and I came up with two different possibilities. One possiblity is that it a way of being safer. One other possibility is that it is a form of self punishment. Not saying that self punishment keeps me safe.
What happens when you punish yourself? Do you feel safe, content, centred, grounded, at ease? Or is this giving another chance to contract, feel small and suffer?
Obviously it is a form of suffering.

Which do you prefer?
It continues on its own, regardless of what I prefer.
And if self punishment is not working, do you still need to engage in those thoughts?
It has a life of its own regardless of what I want. I am incapable of stopping it.
Is it safe to let go of this pattern?
Or do you need it in order to feel safe?
I have no control over this pattern.
Are you safe right now?
I am fairly safe but not completely.
Is life happening on its own? What is not happening on automatic?
Well the self hatred attacks are definitely on automatic!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:05 am

It has a life of its own regardless of what I want. I am incapable of stopping it.
It’s good to acknowledge this. The pattern is unconscious and it is happening on its own. There is no way of changing it by directly controlling it. So let’s see how it is possible to change it indirectly.
What is unconscious needs to become conscious, and that means be noticed and given undivided attention. You see this pattern of self hate, you watch the thought that show up and you know of what is going on including, that this is not helpful. That noticing alone allows the pattern to self-transform. You can not transform it. But it can self transform upon becoming conscious. So next time this self hate talk comes up, stop and acknowledge it. - I see you! You are here, this is not really useful or helping. Do you still want to carry on?
It’s like you catch a computer virus and ask it if it wants to continue self harming with self hate Speech or it is ready to drop. Next time it comes up, it can be noticed again. With given enough conscious attention and no judgement, it has nothing else to do but transform.


You haven’t answered my last question- what is not happening on automatic?

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:57 pm

Hi Ilona

I think I was a bit hasty in my last reply to you. Looking at it more I do see a connection between self punishment and safety. Of course it doesn't really help. And it's not really useful. But I did want to acknowledge that there is some connection for me.

Thank you for the suggestion in your last post:
It’s good to acknowledge this. The pattern is unconscious and it is happening on its own. There is no way of changing it by directly controlling it. So let’s see how it is possible to change it indirectly.
What is unconscious needs to become conscious, and that means be noticed and given undivided attention. You see this pattern of self hate, you watch the thought that show up and you know of what is going on including, that this is not helpful. That noticing alone allows the pattern to self-transform. You can not transform it. But it can self transform upon becoming conscious. So next time this self hate talk comes up, stop and acknowledge it. - I see you! You are here, this is not really useful or helping. Do you still want to carry on?
This is a very useful suggestion!

You haven’t answered my last question- what is not happening on automatic?
This is very interesting! The more I look the more everything seems to going in some sort of semi-automatic way. Well a lot is purely automatic. But then the things that I usually think of as non-automatic have a quality of being semi-automatic. I mean that there are things I can influence by my choices but often my choices are automatic.

It's almost like my mind just doesn't want to accept that everything is just happening on its own. Including my mind! My mind will not accept that it is happening in an automated manner! "No! I have free choice!" it says. But it is automatically saying that!

Looking at what is not automatic opened up an interesting experience of becoming completely identified with Consciousness. As a real experience, not as idea. Now it is idea but at the time there was zero identification with this body or this mind. "I" was pure aware Consciousness! And the first thought that came was "I don't want to be Consciousness!". The "me" mind found it to be very scary. But maybe it is the truth, who knows? In any case there was still a sense of "I" except that the only I to be found was the aware consciousness of all of this.

Ok obviously I have some interesting experiences sometimes but still seeking a deeper level of liberation (which I equate with fearlessness) (another big expectation! Ha!)

Ok this is long enough for today!
Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:55 am

Yes, interesting to explore what is not on automatic!
So what is semi automatic? what is not a happening but a doing?
Is choice something you do or something that is happening?
Through the day watch how choices are made. Is there a choice independent of situation and given conditions? Is there a way to choose something else, then the choice that shows up as the only best option?
Can you choose differently then what is being chosen?

Let’s look closer at what is that you do to make choice happen?


Simple choices, like tea or coffee, water or juice, what’s for dinner, what is the next thing you want to do?
What to think about next?

Curious to hear about your findings.

Love

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:22 pm

Hi Ilona

Yes, interesting to explore what is not on automatic!
So what is semi automatic?
Not exactly sure. This is pretty vague now. An example might be food choices. They are not entirely automatic, but close.

what is not a happening but a doing?
Anything that I say that I have consciously chosen to have happen would be a "doing". Anything that I have not consciously chosen yet still occurs would be a "happening".


Is choice something you do or something that is happening?
Sometimes doing, sometimes happening. Depends on whether or not the conscious mind is involved in the choice.

Through the day watch how choices are made. Is there a choice independent of situation and given conditions?
No, choice is not independent of situation and conditions. Choice is all about situation and conditions. Otherwise there is no need to choose at all.
Is there a way to choose something else, then the choice that shows up as the only best option?
Often I do not know what is the best option. Often the choices appear to be of equal value, and I only realize the best choice after time has passed and it is too late to make a different choice. (Which often leads to thoughts/feelings of regret)

Can you choose differently then what is being chosen?
No. I can only choose what I choose.

Let’s look closer at what is that you do to make choice happen?
Simple choices are mostly made in the moment, as part of the flow. Harder choices involve much more conscious thought and emotional turmoil.

The more important the choice is and the more risk it has, then there is a greater amount of indecision. A lot of energy goes into weighing the pros and cons, more time spent researching alternative plans.

If the best choice is not obvious then at some point the mind either just grabs at some particular option out of desperation, or out of boredom. Sometimes the choosing process has gone on so long that the opportunity has completely passed by.

Simple choices, like tea or coffee, water or juice, what’s for dinner, what is the next thing you want to do?
Simple choices like these are more spontaneous or automatic. There is less mental activity and less emotional turmoil around picking the best/right choice.


What to think about next?
Usually the thoughts just cruise along without me choosing what to think about, but there are times when there is a decision to think about something in particular. Such as now, when there is a decision to think about making choices.
Curious to hear about your findings
Two last things:

1) One thing I have noticed is that the need to claim personal credit for making choices is itself running on automatic! I mean that I don't choose to have the need to claim doership credit for choices or actions. Claiming doership for making choices is itself automatic. The thought that says "I did X" is itself running on automatic. I don't choose to claim credit for making the choices that are made, the claiming credit itself just happens automatically. And there is also a very strong emotional need behind this activity!

2) I also noticed that the original creation of the I-me-self happened on its own. For me to make the choice to create myself, I would have to exist before I existed, in order to make the choice of existing. So really the I-me-self was created on automatic. But now here I am!

Ok that's it. Seems like there is still a lot more to uncover but this is what I've got so far.
Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:03 am

Great conclusions. Yes, Claiming credit is happening on automatic.
Simple choices like these are more spontaneous or automatic. There is less mental activity and less emotional turmoil around picking the best/right choice.
Simple choices are automatic. And so is the turmoil around more complicated choices.
Or is there something you need to ignite to start up?

Let’s take a closer look at an owner. What is it that you truly own?
Do you own thoughts, emotions, sensations, body, environment?
Does thought mine own stuff?
Do you own a piece of life that is lived through this body mind?

How do you see ownership?

Love

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:24 pm

Hi Ilona
Simple choices are automatic. And so is the turmoil around more complicated choices.
Yes this is true. The turmoil is automatic.
Or is there something you need to ignite to start up?
The turmoil just happens along with the complicated choices. I don't have to ignite it, it is not even something that I want. They just arise together as one unit.
Let’s take a closer look at an owner. What is it that you truly own?
I don't really own anything although I call it "mine".
Do you own thoughts, emotions, sensations, body, environment?
No. It's more that I am merged with all of that.
Does thought mine own stuff?
No. The thought "mine" doesn't actually own anything.
Do you own a piece of life that is lived through this body mind?
No. I don't own a piece of life. It is more that this piece of life has its own will that is independent of the universal will. This sense of independent willfulness definitely contributes to the sense of being a separate self. I can see that even the willfulness is somewhat automatic in it's functioning yet at the same time feels like it is coming from "me". Am now curious about this willfulness...
How do you see ownership?
Well I don't own much in the way of stuff, just a car and some clothes and a few other things. It all seems pretty temporary although I do want things that somehow represent my desired self image or aesthetic. I don't own this body or mind or whatever, if anything it is that I am owned by my own emotions and thoughts. They are much stronger and more powerful than "I" am.

Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:18 am

Thank you!
That’s a very interesting thought
It is more that this piece of life has its own will that is independent of the universal will.
You are saying that a drop of water in the ocean has an independent will. Independent from what? From natural laws, from life itself, from its essence?

What if it’s not the case and this apparent piece of life is here according to all natural laws and is doing its program? And the program includes an experience of what it is like to live life from a separate self point of view?

Interesting to hear more from you about that.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:29 pm

Hi Ilona
Thank you!
That’s a very interesting thought
It is more that this piece of life has its own will that is independent of the universal will.
Did I actually write that? It made more sense to me yesterday. Today I'm not even sure that there is such a thing as "universal will". But the appearance of personal will and choice does seem to indicate a separate personal self. Even if that sense of separation is created by life itself.
You are saying that a drop of water in the ocean has an independent will. Independent from what? From natural laws, from life itself, from its essence?
Hmmmm...just what was I saying there?....

I have heard the drop/ocean metaphor a million times but that's not my experience. I mean I'm not the same as a tree or a car or a squirrel or anything else that is "life".

Yesterday when I wrote that post there was a lot of clarity in my experience, lots of openness. All that is believed to be I-me-self was seen to be created by life. Yes even the separateness was seen as life doing it's thing. Now today it is all muddy again.
What if it’s not the case and this apparent piece of life is here according to all natural laws and is doing its program?
Yes, this must be true, that this apparent piece of life is acting in accordance with natural laws. And is doing what it is programmed to do.
And the program includes an experience of what it is like to live life from a separate self point of view?
Yes this makes logical sense. But it doesn't explain why it's all so painful and suffering to live life as separate self. I mean why would life want it's "parts" to suffer so much? This ongoing unhappiness is also life doing it's thing, but what is the point of it? Is there no liberation from suffering after all? Perhaps it is all just some spiritual hype? Feeling kind of bitter today. Maybe this enough for today.

Thank you

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:13 am

Thank you for reply. It’s interesting g how every day life has a different feel to it, what seems clear one day, the next is not so much.
All that is believed to be I-me-self was seen to be created by life. Yes even the separateness was seen as life doing it's thing.
This is good. And let’s look closer. I-me-self created by life. I-me-self is life. Life happening as I me self. Is there a gap between ideas and life? Feelings and life? Body and life? Or is life showing up all that that? Is life separate from creation process?

I don’t remember if I gave you this video to watch or not, but at this point it might help to see.
https://youtu.be/LXrfQqvwIcU

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:09 am

Hi Ilona
Thank you for reply. It’s interesting g how every day life has a different feel to it, what seems clear one day, the next is not so much.

Yes, everyday is shifting all the time. Sometimes I have some breakthrough or opening and then sleep resets everything back to the way it was before.

All that is believed to be I-me-self was seen to be created by life. Yes even the separateness was seen as life doing it's thing.
Yes everything is life doing it's thing but it's hard to see that even if I can agree intellectually.

This is good. And let’s look closer. I-me-self created by life. I-me-self is life. Life happening as I me self. Is there a gap between ideas and life?
I can say that life is the ideas happening with nothing in between but the experience is that they are separate.
Feelings and life?
Feelings are life but experienced as separate.
Body and life?
Same as above. No way to separate body from life yet experienced as separate.
Or is life showing up all that that?
Life is showing up as all that yet identified as somehow separate which is weird, how can it appear so separate when it's not?
Is life separate from creation process?
Hmmmm...in my mind they are separate. Although I know that nothing can be separate from life.
I don’t remember if I gave you this video to watch or not, but at this point it might help to see.
https://youtu.be/LXrfQqvwIcU
Yes I understand but I don't exerience it that way.

I don't know where to go from here. Intellectually I am in agreement with everything you are saying but the ongoing experience just doesn't match up. There are brief glimpses but then everything shifts back to the normal view. It was seen one day recently that the I-me-self is nothing more than a belief but then one hour later it is all back again and here I am again caught up in the belief/reality of the I-me-self. In the moment it was so obviously clear that there is no I, it is only a belief. But now here I am again!

I just watched your new video on YouTube "Finding Inner Peace". Very clear and direct. It was helpful. Thank you for making that. Am looking forward to the next one on expectations. Have been noticing how many expectations I have running in the background all the time. Like the expectation that things could be different than they actually are. That's a big one!

Ok that's it for now
Thank you for continuing to work with me Ilona! I really appreciate it!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:51 am

Thank you for reply. Let’s look at this
The experience is that life and me, body, thoughts, emotions are separate.
There is understanding that it can not be separate, but the experience says it is. Now can you find out, where does this information come from? What is the evidence of separateness? How is separateness perceived? Is there a sensation that is called separateness? Is there information about separateness in visual experience of colour? Sound? Sensation of touch? Smell? Taste? Where is the information that proves that experience of separateness?

Find the line that separates life from its forms.

It’s like looking at a plastic cup and seeing form, shape, function and saying that form is separate from plastic. Or function is separate from plastic. But the cup is a name for the form that plastic takes. It’s all plastic. Cup is not separate from plastic, it is plastic in the form of a “cup”

Life like plastic in example shows up as all the forms. Even the sense of separateness is life happening. As the sense of separateness. But please find that sense of separateness in your experience and look at it. Is it separate? From what?

Explore this closer.

Love.

Ps. Thanks for feedback on the video!

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:39 pm

Hi Ilona
The experience is that life and me, body, thoughts, emotions are separate.
There is understanding that it can not be separate, but the experience says it is. Now can you find out, where does this information come from? What is the evidence of separateness? How is separateness perceived? Is there a sensation that is called separateness? Is there information about separateness in visual experience of colour? Sound? Sensation of touch? Smell? Taste? Where is the information that proves that experience of separateness?



Mind creates the separation. Or at least that is what my mind is telling me :) I suppose that Life creates the mind which creates separation. But it's here in any case. Is separation the same as disconnection? Definitely aware of the difference between when there is an experience of connection vs disconnection.

Here is what I noticed regarding being separate:

1) It appears that separation is real because of the exclusive experience of individual thoughts and feelings and body sensations. "I" am the only one who knows these thoughts feelings and sensations. No one else experiences them, they are exclusive to "me". The exclusivity of these experiences leads to the belief in separation.

2) As soon as there is some form of resistance to what is being experienced then separation arises.

3) As soon as there is the ability to feel one way yet act another way then seperation arises.

4) As soon as there is the ability to lie (pretend, mask, hide) about feelings, thoughts, sensations then separation arises.

I can't find any specific dividing line that marks the location of separation. It is pretty vague. It's more of a sense of me being "in here" and everything else is "out there". I suppose it could be the edges of the physical body as far as sensations go but more vague when it comes to feelings, thoughts. More like some sort of aura or energetic field that is the edge of separation.

In those rare moments of non-separation there is a greater sense of connection, flow, and intimacy with the world. The thoughts are also much quieter at those times, the mind is more silent. There are very few self-referencing thoughts, if any. There is less resistance to being spontaneous. Things tend to flow in a more effortless way, without hesitation. The mind that agonizes over decision making is not active, everything just happens on its own, including what I normally think of as "me". In the moments of deeper experience there is not even a "me" which is somewhat mind boggling but also liberating, while it lasts, before the I-me-self gets restructured and dominates the ongoing experience once again.

That's it for now
Thank you!


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