Freedom Now

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:54 am

Thank you for reply.
Here is a question for you to play with.
Can you give up control, which you never had?
Can you give up doership, which was only imagined?

What comes up?

Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:32 pm

Hi Ilona
Thank you for writing!
Can you give up control, which you never had?
How can I give up something I never had?..... I'm not convinced that I never had control over at least some tiny part of my world.
Can you give up doership, which was only imagined?
Again, it is not my experience that doership is only imagined, so it's kind of a loaded question.
What comes up?
I suppose this is what they call "surrender to a higher power?... The thing is that I don't see that the I-me-self was never true to begin with. I don't see that I never had any control over anything. I don't see that doership is an illusion.

I do see that I agonize over every decision I make because if I make the wrong choice then some horrible disaster will follow. The so called illusion of control and doership give me the opportunity to be safe in the world. Of course this does lead to a lot of anxiety as well, because of the possibility of making the wrong choice....so it's a mixed bag, if I accept that I never had any choice in anything that ever happened it could (in theory) reduce the anxiety around making decisions in life and also reduce the regretful thoughts. So I can see the possibility that not having control or doership could be freeing.

But it seems like it's not just about me and my control or lack of control, not just my individual doership. I also have to give up the idea that others have choice, that others are in control, that others have doership. Otherwise I am giving up my self determination only to be at the mercy of others control, others choices. Do you understand what I am saying?

If I never had any control, but others do then it's going to be a more fearful existence. If my personal doership is an illusion but others are still operating with personal choice then it brings up a lot of negative emotion.

So along with accepting that my own sense of choice and control and doership are all illusions, I also have to accept that others have no choice, others have no control, others are living with the illusion of doership.

It's not just about me here....

Is this really such a mechanistic universe? Is there really no such thing as free will? Looking around the room in this cafe where I am writing, looking at others, imagining that no one here has any choice in anything that happens....

So even my going to the LU website and starting this work with you was never actually a choice? It was predestined to happen?

I think that there is a big difference between having no choice and having no self. If it is a matter of no choice, there is still an I that is suffering the lack of choice. If there is no I, then it could be said that choices happen, but no one is making them. This latter option feels much more freeing....

Seeing that the I-me-self does not actually exist is a very different experience than seeing that the I-me-self has no control over anything!

Ok that's it for now.
Thank you!

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:28 pm

Hi Ilona
Here is a little more:

Is the issue under discussion no control or no self?

If I give up control, then the alternative that appears is that I am being controlled!
But if there is no I, then there is no one who can be in control, and no one who can be controlled either.

If I give up doership, then the alternative that shows up is that I am being done to!
But if there is no I, then there is no one who is doing and no one who can be done to either.

This is very clear, at least intellectually. The current experience is that there is an I-me-self that is here and involved in the process of writing these words. Control or no control? The current experience is one of an I-me-self exerting some degree of partial control.

Ok that's it for now
Thanks!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:38 am

How can I give up something I never had?..... I'm not convinced that I never had control over at least some tiny part of my world.
Aha. Then what is there to give up?
Let’s look for the evidence of the controller in experience. By that I mean, don’t think about it, but look in actual experience which is present here now.

Notice there are colours and shapes. Are you in control of what colours and shapes are seen? Can you choose what colour walls are in the room? Can you swap collies at will?
Explore where is the controller in seeing.

Sounds are being heard. Do you choose how and when sounds show up? Can you mute or increase volume of sounds? Are you in charge of hearing or are sounds happening effortlessly without your command?

Smells, is there a control over smelling or not smelling?

Taste, eat something and see if you make the taste happen or is that something that shows up? Are you manipulating taste? Try. Put something sweet on the tongue and make it feel like salty.

And sensation. They are here, right? Are you marking sensations happen? Is there a way to stop feeling sensations if you don’t want them to be here or make sensation appear?

Play with this and tell me, is there a controller of actual experience that is happening now?

And when is it not now?
Have fun with this.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:32 pm

Hi Ilona
Am feeling frustrated. Are you even reading what I am writing?

Having no control is not the same as having no self. If I have no control over anything then that means that I am being controlled. I have said this before. What is the point of pushing this "no control" thing on me over and over? I am finding that it triggers a lot of irritation in me. Can you please explain to me why you keep pushing this point? No control is not the same as no self! No control is not freeing, it is like being in prison. No self is freeing. Why keep pushing this point about no control?

There are some things that I have control over and some things that I don't have control over. It is not an all or nothing situation!

Well ok whatever, here are the answers to your questions, although I think I have answered them all already.
Notice there are colours and shapes. Are you in control of what colours and shapes are seen? Can you choose what colour walls are in the room? Can you swap collies at will?
Explore where is the controller in seeing.


I can not control the colors and shapes. I can control whether or not I open my eyes. I can control which direction I look.
Sounds are being heard. Do you choose how and when sounds show up? Can you mute or increase volume of sounds? Are you in charge of hearing or are sounds happening effortlessly without your command?


I can not control how and when some sounds show up. I can control whether or not I pay attention to the sounds. I can control whether I wear ear plugs or play the radio.
Smells, is there a control over smelling or not smelling?


I can not control the perception of smells but I can control whether or not I add scents or perfumes to the environment.
Taste, eat something and see if you make the taste happen or is that something that shows up? Are you manipulating taste? Try. Put something sweet on the tongue and make it feel like salty.


I can not control the perception of taste. I can control what I put in my mouth.
And sensation. They are here, right? Are you marking sensations happen? Is there a way to stop feeling sensations if you don’t want them to be here or make sensation appear?


I can not make sensations happen. I can control my body position to alter the sensations.
Play with this and tell me, is there a controller of actual experience that is happening now?


There are some aspects of life that are outside of my control. There are some aspects of experience that I am able to control.
And when is it not now?
It is always now.
Have fun with this.


Not having much fun with this today. Hate the feeling of being controlled. Very triggering.

That's all for today
Thank you

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:03 pm

Actually no self means that everything is simply happening by itself as one unified movement.
No controller means that all thoughts, sensations, colours, sounds, perceptions show up. By themselves.
And I ask you to look in your experience. In actual direct experience. Not in what you think about experience but in what is really happening here now. There is a difference between thinking and looking. You can think about what colour socks you have or you can take a look a see.
No control is not freeing only because there is assumption that it means that there is a you that is controlled.
We are here to question that assumption. By looking in experience. I totally hear you that it is very frustrating and makes no sense. And I invite you to find evidence in experience by looking.

Trust that the process is going as it should.
If there was you in control, would you be here trying to figure this out?
Each question you answered from the head, from thinking. I am asking you to look, really look. What is not happening on automatic?

Don’t worry, there is an end to this frustration.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:34 pm

When I look into my experience what I see is that there are some things that are out of my control and some things that are in my control. This is my experience.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:53 am

Well, you are not looking...
but let’s go back to your previous posts and see where you are stuck.
You say you can not control colours and shapes, sounds, taste, perceptions, smells and taste. Ok.

You say you can control if you open your eyes or not. Let’s take a closer look here. Notice that eyes are blinking. Are you doing that or are the eyes blinking by themselves?

Can you not read these words right now? Try. Can you look at the screen and not understand these black squiggles?

If you look to the left, just now, what do you see? Do you choose what you see or is it there and you see what it is?
Did you look to the left?

What made you look to the left? Was it your decision to look or not to look?

Was it words on the screen that made you look?
Did you control which way you look?
Examine this closer.
How does it work?

Don’t just reply without examining. Get really close to experience and explore.

During the day do this a few times, out of curiosity, when remembered, look to the left and watch colours and shapes. See how that happens as it happens. What happens first: Looking, impulse to look, memory to look, o the story about looking?
What decides to look or not to look?

I’m giving you an exercise, play with it and write when ready with what feels true to you.

Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:32 pm

Ok so I have no control over anything. Including no control over my intense irritation around seeing this. I have no control over my mind or my choices or my perception. I have no control over the words that my finger is typing right now. I have no control over my thoughts or my emotions or my behavior. What now? When does the freedom start? All that is happening is that I feel intense irritation and frustration that I have no control over anything. And I have no control over that either!

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:05 pm

Yep, it’s all happening.
If there was control, you could tell the mind to stop thinking and bam, it’s quiet.

But can you see, that there is an order to everything, all that is happening is flowing freely, from situation to situation.
It’s obvious in nature. You have a seed of a watermelon, you put it in the ground and with right conditions you will have watermelons. ( not apples or rabbits )
How the plant will look like depends on soil, temperature, weather, sun, water, all that shapes the appearance of watermelons, but you can expect to get watermelon, right.
And this human thing is just the same, it depends on seed and conditions. It’s not random. Everything influences what the body looks and feels like, what the character traits are present. So where is the controller in the seed of a watermelon?
Where is the controller in this human body?
Can you see, that everything is given : likes, dislikes, preferences, desires.. behaviour is shaped by environment and situations have probable outcomes.
It’s not that you are powerless or have no control.
It’s that there is no controller to control anything. It’s a free flowing happening.
Everything that is happening is movement of totality. And there is intelligent order to that.
From here, can you trust, that some process is happening here and one way out of it is going with it. Even frustration is here not because you put it there, but it arises. And it will pass.

You can’t loose what you never had, as you said so.
Let’s look at what is here, flowing freely.

Write what comes up. How would life look like if there really is no separate self in charge of life happening?


Love.

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:17 pm

In my experience I am feeling trapped and traumatized regarding this whole "no control" exploration. My experience is very different from your experience. Thank you for sharing your view of the world with me. It sounds lovely for you. However that is not my view. Again, I look into my experience and I see that there are some things that I control and some things that I do not control. I report my experience to you and you tell me that I am not looking. I AM looking at my experience and that is what I see.

I was very excited when I found the LU website, reading it all, getting your book, listening to podcasts. But now I am feeling more like it's all just more bullshit... I am happy for you that you have found some freedom for yourself but I'm going down into a rabbit hole of frustration and anger. Feeling like you aren't really even reading what I am describing as my experience. You have your agenda and that is fine, but this process is doing nothing but irritating me!!

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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:59 pm

So for you "no control" is liberating but for me it is a descent into hell. So why keep pushing this on me when all it does is create more resistance? I thought the whole LU thing was about "no self", not "no control". If that was the case I never would have even started this whole thing. Is it not possible to adjust your approach depending on who you are working with?

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:40 am

We can go three ways here.
You can take a break and come back when ready to continue.
We can have a Skype conversation and look at the frustration that arises.
You can ask for another guide.


Love.

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MeFree
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby MeFree » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:18 pm

Hello Ilona

Let's continue on. I know it's not easy. I have a lot of emotional reactivity in my system.

Looking into having no control in my universe results in a lot of intense feelings of frustration. There is a very strong need for controlling my eating disorder, controlling my rage. There is a strong need to remain in control in order to feel safe and function in the world. So looking into the possibility having absolutely no control over anything in the universe is very challenging for me.

I hope that this makes sense.

Thank you

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Ilona
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Re: Freedom Now

Postby Ilona » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:52 am

Dear friend,
Have you done any therapy?
I am asking, as you describe some psychological issues. It may be a good idea to work with someone, who knows how to help you with your intense feelings..
on one hand you say in the beginning that you are looking for effortless flow, and on another hand you are not willing to let it flow, the need to control is there.
My question for you is this - do you want Freedom or do you want control? And what is worse: absence of freedom or absence of control?

How would you answer that?
Love.


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