Who am I?

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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:07 am

Thank you for reply
The words Micha and body point to concepts. What I meant to say is that if I look closer at what Micha/the body really is, then I end up with sensations and thoughts which I label as Micha/the body. These sensations and thoughts are really there right? They are reality.
sensations are here, right. Undeniably so. But there is no sensation “micha”. There are sensations that words like foot, eye, finger point to, but label micha points to nothing in actuality. Can you see that? So yes, word micha points to concepts. Not to reality. To check this in your experience, find the concrete sensation that word micha points to, what do you get?

Yes, sensations are here, sounds, colours, smells are experienced. This has nothing to do with a person called micha.

See, we have a story about batman, and in the story he has particular skills and preferences, likes dislikes and behaviour. But is batman an entity in charge of what is happening in the story about batman? Is he driving the story? And where is batman without the story about him? How is micha different from batman? Does micha make like happen?

Yes, both micha and ilona are concepts, useful in communicating about concepts, but are you a concept?

There is as sense of being. There is sense of experiencing. There is sense of thinking. Is being here without any labels?

send me your observations :)
Love.

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Micha2019
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Micha2019 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:41 pm

Hi Ilona,

1. Yes, it’s clear to me that when I zoom in to my sensations to find Micha, there is no sensation that is me/Micha. Those sensations are not controlling anything, they do not feel or think, they cannot see.

Also, the sensations are in constant motion, and there is a sense of self that does not move with them. For example, when I think the sensations around the eyes are me, and I watch those sensations for some time, then I feel the sensations moving, while there is a sense of self that is not affected by those sensations.
But looking closer it seems that this “sense of self” is yet another sensation, and thus not me. I never saw that before; I think many times I was looking for an experience of beingness that is just a very subtle sensation, and then telling myself it is not a sensation. But it can’t be a sensation at all.

2. Am I different from Batman?
The story about me connects thoughts, sensations, preferences, behavior etc and tells it is a person, Micha. But all those things do not need a person to be connected and they do not need someone to connect them, to do, to think, to be in charge of the story. Apart from those thoughts, sensations, presferences and behavior etc., there is no experience of a person. So no person is needed and no person is found.

3. Sense of being & Am I a concept?
I feel real, not a concept. I am just not sure whether I base the feeling of being real on the idea that I am feeling and thinking. Or whether I base it on a sense of being.

There is a sense of being. This sense comes with an idea of a person who is/who is being. So the sense of being seems to be the same as the being of a person, Micha. I cant really grasp that sense of being without also thinking I’m a separate person, I’m not recognizing it.

You ask “I being here without any labels?” I’m not sure I understand that question. Do you mean if being needs labels?

With love,
Micha


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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:21 am

Great.

Yes! You are not a concept! You ARE.
There is a sense of being. This sense comes with an idea of a person who is/who is being. So the sense of being seems to be the same as the being of a person, Micha. I cant really grasp that sense of being without also thinking I’m a separate person, I’m not recognizing it.
Look at the sense of being, beingness, aliveness, it is a fundamental knowing that you are. You are here, right now. Alive. Experiencing. It’s knowing that you are.
Can you deny that you are?

That’s all. sense of being. isness. Words can only point to it, it is felt, it is real and undeniable. That’s it.

Now, do you need to be someone in order to be?
Do you need to know anything in order to be?
Do you need to do something in order to be?

Do you need to think in order to be?

Explore this.

Sending love.

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Micha2019
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Micha2019 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:22 pm

Hi Ilona,

“Can you deny that you are?”
This question took me to the sense of being/aliveness. It is clear, and it is not restricted to my body. It actually takes away the focus from my body, and decreases identification with it.

You asked: “Do you need to be someone, to know anything, to do something, or to think in order to be?”
No. I can be without all these things. No question about it. The sense of being is there, vibrant.

This feeling of aliveness is not stable; thoughts or feelings take me back to feeling a separate self. But asking myself if I can deny that I am, or who is thinking or feeling and then seeing there is no one there, takes me back to this sense of aliveness.

With love,
Micha


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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:32 pm

This sense of being is the only stable thing. It’s always here now. Even when thinking highjacks attention and there is a feeling of separateness, sense of being is still here. Check it

Are you aware of sensations right now?
Is there ever a time/ space, when you are not aware of experience? Of life happening?

Is there ever not right now?

Love.

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Micha2019
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Micha2019 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:24 pm

Ilona,

So yes, when I took my time to investigate (in stead of just doing my things and checking in sporadically), at first I experienced that awareness of the sense of being was interupted by thoughts or feelings of separeteness. But more and more, when I relaxed my looking, these things became part of the sense of being. So the thinking and feeling was at first a little bit, but then more and more part of being. Kind of like the separate experiences were on the foreground of my awareness first, but more and more they gave way to the sense of being in the foreground, and separate experiences moved to the background.

Perhaps the main thing is that it seems to take less and less effort to be aware of being.

And yes, there is always experiencing. I just don’t always recognize it as such. E.g., when I’m preoccupied with my thoughts, I hear my thoughts, but I’m not consiously aware of other things, nor am I aware that I am aware of my thoughts.

And I know there is only right now, I’m just not sure what you mean by pointing this out here?

With love,

Micha


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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:47 am

Good work. Yes, take time to investigate, as if the investigation is the most important thing that matters.

Here now is the place where beingness is noticed. Thoughts are talking about past and future, theoretical stuff and it’s easy to get lost in thinking. But even thinking and imagining is happening in the present. Experiencing content of thinking and imagining is still happening in here now/ presence.

Investigate this: where attention goes- storry follows. Attention is on content of thoughts- more thoughts about thoughts
Attention is on sensations- thoughts show up describing sensations.

What is that moves attention? How does attention work?
Sit for 15 min and observe attention itself, how it operates. Are you making itmove or is itmoving freely?

Describe what you find out.

Love.

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Micha2019
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Micha2019 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:53 pm

When attention goes somewhere, immediately there are thoughts about or labeling of what attention goes to.

When attention is relaxed it is in an unfocussed way aware of the hole space. Attention moves automatically as a spotlight to things in awareness that stand out such as a sudden sound. Or to things that thoughts tell it to go to. But then those thoughts are not controlled, so the attention following the thoughts is not controlled either. In those cases where thoughts tell attention where to go it does feel like I am moving it. It’s just when I look closer I see that the thoughts were not controlled by a me.

With love
Micha


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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:00 am

Nice Looking.
Now let’s see if attention and content is one and the same or is there a gap. Is there a perceiver and perceived? Or these words point to the same event?

Is there a hearer for sound that hears the sound?
Or sound, hearing, awareness of sound are words, that describe same happening?

Here is bahyia sutra, play with it. See how everything look through this lens.
In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

Describe what you notice after spending some good time with it.

Love.

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Micha2019
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Micha2019 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:18 pm

1. Hearing = sound = awareness of sound?
I cannot find an activity of hearing. I mean, there is just hearing, but I do not have to start doing the hearing, there is no effort to it.
When there is sound in my perception, there is always hearing and awareness of the sound.
So when we speak of hearing (“I am hearing”) that points to the same happening as you suggest: the happening of a sound and of awareness of it.

2. Bahya sutra
I understand there is no thinker of thoughts, but I caught myself believing there was a seer of thoughts, instead of just thoughts. But actually I am not thoughts, nor am I watching thoughts. There is no I.

The seer of thoughts, so I thought, where sensations from my head. And I was imagining the thoughts to be at a distance from those sensations – as if I was looking at them from a distance. But there is no distance.

And then I started checking whether there could be awareness of thinking without someone who is aware. And that brought me to finding out that I still was having an idea about the one who is aware: that it is someone who is understanding that the sensations are not me. Basically someone who is doing this inquiry. Someone who is checking whether the inquiry is working from moment to moment.

With love,
Micha


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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:35 am

Great work. There are many places where idea of i is subtly hiding.. interesting that you thought that sensations see thougths and that there is a gap. Good to notice that in actuality this is one happening.

There is someone who is doing inquiry- that’s another hiding place. Is inquiry a happening too?
Is there a seeker?
Is there a Gateless gate to cross?
Is there I to cross a gate? Is there I to get benefits from crossing a gate?

Here are some questions to play with.

Love.

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Micha2019
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Micha2019 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:11 pm

When I relax and I focus on the sense of being in stead of on the body, then it is quite easy to see that inquiry, or anything I do, is a happening. Everything is then clearly in awareness and there is nothing but awareness of everything. The sense of an I is still there, but vaguely.

When I am inquiring during which my focus is on my body sensations and thoughts, then I identify with my bodymind and then I cannot see that there is not a seeker; I only intellectually know it.

“I there a gateless gate? Is there I to cross a gate? Is there I to get benefits from crossing a gate?”
At the moment, I can only answer these questions intellectually. It still feels like there is an I. Some days it is clearer then others there is no I. Today I is clearly there.

Love,
Micha


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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:51 am

Today there is clearly an i. Ok, so what is the i, clearly? What does this word point to precisely? Find the i and describe it to me.

Love.

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Micha2019
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Micha2019 » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:00 am

Thank you, Ilona.

The I mostly points to a sensation/sensations in the face. And I experience it as if everything I see is seen from the location of the eyes.

Also, there is a very strong connection between thoughts and those sensations in the face. Together, they make it seem like there is an I. Thoughts seem to be thought by me because while thinking I feel those sensations and they seem where the thoughts come from, or made by.


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Ilona
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Re: Who am I?

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:40 am

Examine this sensation and thoughts. Is it one and the same or there are two events? Sensations gap thoughts? Knowing gap sensations?
Knowing gap thoughts?

Thought seem to be thought by me
Is there a gap here between thinker and thinking?
Is there a thinker or simply thoughts arising?
Are you making thoughts arise? If so, do you know what thought will arise before it shows up? Is thinking a doing or a happening?

Look until it’s no longer seems but is known how it is.

Love.


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