SamK

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Sam47
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SamK

Postby Sam47 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:36 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That all known experience is a transitory. I want to cement this understanding

What are you looking for at LU?
To get as close as I can to knowing that I am no thing in true nature and at the same time appreciate this reality. I want to keep enquiring into my nature to be able to hold still in discomfort to build resilience r

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Nothing other than an opportunity you to explore and build up resilience to what appears. To reverse engineer beliefs and see them for that they are. I expect truth and both beliefs in the exploration.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Dzogchen and basic self enquiry.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

barb
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Re: SamK

Postby barb » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:55 pm

Hi :)

I would like to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions.

At the beginning a few explanations:

This is not a "normal dialogue". Essentially, it's about asking you questions and assigning tasks and you answering them from your direct experience. See what you can do with your five senses and which thoughts you can observe. Look each fresh and do not call you on books you've read or experiences that you have ever made.

You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience...
This simple seeing also notices that there is no self here - there's just what is going on, that this is already going on for everyone right now. :)

It is important that you try to be 100% honest in your own interest ... For the duration of this investigation, please leave all books, videos, satsangs other threads in this forum or whatever on the subject, which could affect direct viewing and perception. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that, but not necessary.

To keep your process flowing here, it would be good if you could answer every day at least every second day. If it does not fit or you need more time just let me know.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://liberationunleashed.com/

To begin with, so that we become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the following questions::


What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?
What will change, what will remain the same?
What do you expect, what do you hope?




Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.


I'm looking forward to your answers :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Sam47
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Re: SamK

Postby Sam47 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:20 am

Hi :)

I would like to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions.

At the beginning a few explanations:

This is not a "normal dialogue". Essentially, it's about asking you questions and assigning tasks and you answering them from your direct experience. See what you can do with your five senses and which thoughts you can observe. Look each fresh and do not call you on books you've read or experiences that you have ever made.

You don’t actually have to do anything other than to LOOK with your five senses at what is being pointed at. To see you are already seeing and always have been seeing what actually is. This is not about thinking about something, it is about Direct Experience...
This simple seeing also notices that there is no self here - there's just what is going on, that this is already going on for everyone right now. :)

It is important that you try to be 100% honest in your own interest ... For the duration of this investigation, please leave all books, videos, satsangs other threads in this forum or whatever on the subject, which could affect direct viewing and perception. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that, but not necessary.

To keep your process flowing here, it would be good if you could answer every day at least every second day. If it does not fit or you need more time just let me know.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://liberationunleashed.com/

To begin with, so that we become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the following questions::


What will it feel like the moment the illusion is seeing through?
What will change, what will remain the same?
What do you expect, what do you hope?




Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.


I'm looking forward to your answers :)

I want to align more with my true nature. This is my hope of this exercise.
I want to develop my capacity to see the transparency of all objects and experiences beyond an intellectual experience.

Thank you for your support.
Sam




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barb
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Re: SamK

Postby barb » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:53 pm

I want to align more with my true nature. This is my hope of this exercise.
Why? Let's dig deeper, what do you hope to get from it which is not already here?
I want to develop my capacity to see the transparency of all objects and experiences beyond an intellectual experience.
It's good to see which expectations are here, and then to put them aside. They are the cause of unsatisfaction with what is here now, the hindrance of seeing that everything is already o.k. as it is and nothing is missing

So can you please put them in a box for the duration of our investigation and close it well... :)

Please write down all the reactions, body sensations, feelings and thoughts that come up when you read these sentences:

There is no I, never, nowhere, and never existed, not even right now. There is no one who experiences something, no one who thinks, decides and acts. There is no one who could wake up, no one who could develop a capacity to see transparency or some other stuff.


Thank you for your support.
It's my pleasure :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Sam47
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Re: SamK

Postby Sam47 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:45 pm

I want to align more with my true nature. This is my hope of this exercise.
Why? Let's dig deeper, what do you hope to get from it which is not already here?
I want to develop my capacity to see the transparency of all objects and experiences beyond an intellectual experience.
It's good to see which expectations are here, and then to put them aside. They are the cause of unsatisfaction with what is here now, the hindrance of seeing that everything is already o.k. as it is and nothing is missing

So can you please put them in a box for the duration of our investigation and close it well... :)

Please write down all the reactions, body sensations, feelings and thoughts that come up when you read these sentences:

There is no I, never, nowhere, and never existed, not even right now. There is no one who experiences something, no one who thinks, decides and acts. There is no one who could wake up, no one who could develop a capacity to see transparency or some other stuff.


Thank you for your support.
It's my pleasure :)
Relief, when I get glimpses of this. I feel that I know this intellectually but feel barriers to explore this deeply. I get distracted and drawn into chasing things/experiences. I feel like there is something I need to do, to realise this.
I also get drawn into feeing like I don’t have personal responsibility, maybe this is okay?
I like the realisation that there is no one who could wake up. Thanks for the precision here.

Many thanks
Sam.


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barb
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Re: SamK

Postby barb » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:39 pm

I know it is a little tricky to write with the phone, but please give it a try to quote only the bold written questions and to answer them individually... :)
Relief, when I get glimpses of this. I feel that I know this intellectually but feel barriers to explore this deeply. I get distracted and drawn into chasing things/experiences. I feel like there is something I need to do, to realise this.
Can you please put this expectation/hope also in the box? Just try to be curious impartially...
I also get drawn into feeing like I don’t have personal responsibility, maybe this is okay?
This is great and right... During our investigation you will hopefully see, that „person“ is just a concept, and how could a concept have responsibilities... :)

We are working with DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE).. you sure have read about it, but I will describe it again:

DE is that, wich can be perceived with the senses: seeing-hearing-touching-smelling-tasting-thinking (only the perception, that there is thought, not its content) All stuff which is not findable with the senses is thoughtcontent = fairytale :)
Here in this investigation look always in DE for answers... Ie: I ask you, which socks you're wearing. You can think about it, look in your memories, or simply look at your feet. The last one is the only one we can be fairly sure that it's real :)

Most of the time, we are in the fairytale of thought content, not participating in the life through which the body goes.

Try what it is like to be in reality. In doing so, you will reduce reality to the names that are closest to perception. Do this exercise as often as possible throughout the day.

Simply name any experience as seeing-hearing-sensing-smelling-tasting-thinking.

Do this while becoming aware of various things:

To see a tree, simply = seeing
The smell of coffee = smelling
The wind in the face = sensing
The toothpaste on the toothbrush = tasting
Hear a car pass by = hearing
Thought of the work = thinking (Thoughts can be words and mental images).
Thought of enlightenment = thinking
Tension in the neck = sensing
etc...

There are two kinds of thought:

1- The thought points to something perceptible via the senses at this moment - the thought 'labels'.
2- The thought points to another thought, this is thought-content and the story being told.

Simply subclassify all the experiences in these categories that are all direct experiences and tell me how that goes and what you've noticed - please give me a few examples.


:)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Sam47
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Re: SamK

Postby Sam47 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:23 pm

I know it is a little tricky to write with the phone, but please give it a try to quote only the bold written questions and to answer them individually... :)
Relief, when I get glimpses of this. I feel that I know this intellectually but feel barriers to explore this deeply. I get distracted and drawn into chasing things/experiences. I feel like there is something I need to do, to realise this.
Can you please put this expectation/hope also in the box? Just try to be curious impartially...
I also get drawn into feeing like I don’t have personal responsibility, maybe this is okay?
This is great and right... During our investigation you will hopefully see, that „person“ is just a concept, and how could a concept have responsibilities... :)

We are working with DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE).. you sure have read about it, but I will describe it again:

DE is that, wich can be perceived with the senses: seeing-hearing-touching-smelling-tasting-thinking (only the perception, that there is thought, not its content) All stuff which is not findable with the senses is thoughtcontent = fairytale :)
Here in this investigation look always in DE for answers... Ie: I ask you, which socks you're wearing. You can think about it, look in your memories, or simply look at your feet. The last one is the only one we can be fairly sure that it's real :)

Most of the time, we are in the fairytale of thought content, not participating in the life through which the body goes.

Try what it is like to be in reality. In doing so, you will reduce reality to the names that are closest to perception. Do this exercise as often as possible throughout the day.

Simply name any experience as seeing-hearing-sensing-smelling-tasting-thinking.

Do this while becoming aware of various things:

To see a tree, simply = seeing
The smell of coffee = smelling
The wind in the face = sensing
The toothpaste on the toothbrush = tasting
Hear a car pass by = hearing
Thought of the work = thinking (Thoughts can be words and mental images).
Thought of enlightenment = thinking
Tension in the neck = sensing
etc...

There are two kinds of thought:

1- The thought points to something perceptible via the senses at this moment - the thought 'labels'.
2- The thought points to another thought, this is thought-content and the story being told.

Simply subclassify all the experiences in these categories that are all direct experiences and tell me how that goes and what you've noticed - please give me a few examples.


:)
So I’m looking at my laptop = seeing.
I can hear music = hearing.
I can feel myself sitting on the sofa = sitting.
I can see this phone = seeing
I can sense pressing the phone = sensing

The experience feels more external. It doesn’t feel like it’s coming from me. I’m less aware of myself as a separate entity. I also feel a desire to want to retreat back to my so called mind.

Did I report properly this time. Sorry I was a day late. The habit will form shortly.

Ha! Just typing this, I’m feeling the phone. And seeing the phone and hearing the music.







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barb
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Re: SamK

Postby barb » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:45 pm

The experience feels more external. It doesn’t feel like it’s coming from me. I’m less aware of myself as a separate entity. I also feel a desire to want to retreat back to my so called mind.
Let's examine this:

Pause for two minutes, close your eyes and relax. Breath softly and calmly and listen attentively to all the sounds that can be heard at the moment.

Can you find a hearer (separate entity), separated from hearing and what is heard? Where does listening happen? Watch out for distant sounds. Where is the listener (separate entity) now? Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there. Is it possible to define it?
Did I report properly this time. Sorry I was a day late. The habit will form shortly.
All good ... You can also write every 2nd or 3rd day, just how it fits for you, we are not on the run... :)
Ha! Just typing this, I’m feeling the phone. And seeing the phone and hearing the music.
Great! Try to create a habit out of this exercise,  do this exercise as often as possible throughout the everyday life.

:)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Sam47
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Re: SamK

Postby Sam47 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:28 am

The experience feels more external. It doesn’t feel like it’s coming from me. I’m less aware of myself as a separate entity. I also feel a desire to want to retreat back to my so called mind.
Let's examine this:

Pause for two minutes, close your eyes and relax. Breath softly and calmly and listen attentively to all the sounds that can be heard at the moment.

Can you find a hearer (separate entity), separated from hearing and what is heard? Where does listening happen? Watch out for distant sounds. Where is the listener (separate entity) now? Find out with closed eyes, if there is a border between here and there. Is it possible to define it?
Did I report properly this time. Sorry I was a day late. The habit will form shortly.
All good ... You can also write every 2nd or 3rd day, just how it fits for you, we are not on the run... :)
Ha! Just typing this, I’m feeling the phone. And seeing the phone and hearing the music.
Great! Try to create a habit out of this exercise,  do this exercise as often as possible throughout the everyday life.

:)
I couldn’t find a separate entity although I could feel sensations of touch as I lie in my bed. I can hear sounds but can’t assign to any proximity.
I feel all sensations occupy the same space and are unpredictable. The awareness of this changing experience remains.
I can’t define a border but my focus gravitates to body senses; mainly my skin touching the bed and I can feel my heart beat. It feels like it’s inside my skin body senses. I do feel all experiences occupy the same space.

Thanks for you support.

Cheers
Sam


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barb
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Re: SamK

Postby barb » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:14 pm

I couldn’t find a separate entity although I could feel sensations of touch as I lie in my bed. I can hear sounds but can’t assign to any proximity.

Is it necessary that there has to be an „I“ to feel sensations? Is there an I who feels, or is there just feeling? Is there an I that hears, or is there just hearing?
I feel all sensations occupy the same space and are unpredictable. The awareness of this changing experience remains.
I can’t define a border but my focus gravitates to body senses; mainly my skin touching the bed and I can feel my heart beat. It feels like it’s inside my skin body senses. I do feel all experiences occupy the same space.
It feels like someone is experiencing it. But is it so? Put your finger on the table and close your eyes. What is to be felt? Without labeling - is there a table, or just pressure? Do the sensations originally have a name? Where does the name come from for the sensations and when does it come to it? Is there a border between the table and the fingers? Is there anybody who feels and the felt or is just feeling there?

Don't think about these exercises, look with your senses :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Sam47
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Re: SamK

Postby Sam47 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:41 pm

I couldn’t find a separate entity although I could feel sensations of touch as I lie in my bed. I can hear sounds but can’t assign to any proximity.

Is it necessary that there has to be an „I“ to feel sensations? Is there an I who feels, or is there just feeling? Is there an I that hears, or is there just hearing?
I feel all sensations occupy the same space and are unpredictable. The awareness of this changing experience remains.
I can’t define a border but my focus gravitates to body senses; mainly my skin touching the bed and I can feel my heart beat. It feels like it’s inside my skin body senses. I do feel all experiences occupy the same space.
It feels like someone is experiencing it. But is it so? Put your finger on the table and close your eyes. What is to be felt? Without labeling - is there a table, or just pressure? Do the sensations originally have a name? Where does the name come from for the sensations and when does it come to it? Is there a border between the table and the fingers? Is there anybody who feels and the felt or is just feeling there?

Don't think about these exercises, look with your senses :)

Apologies Barb for my late response

My sense of a separate feels relatively strong. The feeling of Me, feels like a strong boundary of physical sensations. When I take actions I’m assigning them to me doing them, but I can find who is taking the actions or locate where the arise.

It is just hearing. It is just feeling. There is just pressure when I push on objects. I’m pushing on my duvet and feeling pressure and resistance. Sensations don’t have a name at origin. There feels like there is no gap between the table. I can feel my pulse as I push down on the table.

It is all just feeling. I catch myself taking credit for these experiences almost immediately.

Thanks for the support. :-)


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barb
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Re: SamK

Postby barb » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:51 pm

Apologies Barb for my late response
No problem :)
My sense of a separate feels relatively strong. The feeling of Me, feels like a strong boundary of physical sensations.

What of these sensations are really felt, how and where in the body? And what of this is just a story told by thoughts?

When I take actions I’m assigning them to me doing them, but I can find who is taking the actions or locate where the arise.
I guess you ment „but I cannot find who“, right? And if so - yes, very good observed! You „assign“ them to a me – thats just fairytaile of thought. We are so used to believing what the thoughts are saying that most of the time we don't even get the idea that they have nothing to do with reality – with what is here now.

And thats why we are here. Our investigation is about seeing whether thoughts are true and whether the separated "I" is more than a thought. Therefore it is really important to learn the difference between direct experience (DE) and thought stories and to recognize them again and again.
It is just hearing. It is just feeling. There is just pressure when I push on objects. I’m pushing on my duvet and feeling pressure and resistance. Sensations don’t have a name at origin. There feels like there is no gap between the table. I can feel my pulse as I push down on the table.

It is all just feeling. I catch myself taking credit for these experiences almost immediately.
Good, that you can see this :)

Test it out with a little experiment if an separate „I“ is needed for experience to happen. All you need is 10 to 20 minutes (a timer would be great), a pen & paper.

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.


Like this:

I am laying in my bed.
I am hearing the rain,
I am typing these words
I have tensions in my neck
I think about work..
and so on......

Do it for 5-10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 5-10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:


Waiting for next thought,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the rain
thinking about enlightenment
tension in shoulder.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Thanks for the support. :-)
with pleasure :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Sam47
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Re: SamK

Postby Sam47 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:11 pm

On it tonight Barb.
I had a few challenges in my personal life.
Thanks again. I’m really committed to this exploration and already found the pointing helpful.


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barb
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Re: SamK

Postby barb » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:58 pm

Thanks for the message, take your time... :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Sam47
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Re: SamK

Postby Sam47 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:04 pm

Apologies Barb for my late response
No problem :)
My sense of a separate feels relatively strong. The feeling of Me, feels like a strong boundary of physical sensations.

What of these sensations are really felt, how and where in the body? And what of this is just a story told by thoughts?

When I take actions I’m assigning them to me doing them, but I can find who is taking the actions or locate where the arise.
I guess you ment „but I cannot find who“, right? And if so - yes, very good observed! You „assign“ them to a me – thats just fairytaile of thought. We are so used to believing what the thoughts are saying that most of the time we don't even get the idea that they have nothing to do with reality – with what is here now.

And thats why we are here. Our investigation is about seeing whether thoughts are true and whether the separated "I" is more than a thought. Therefore it is really important to learn the difference between direct experience (DE) and thought stories and to recognize them again and again.
It is just hearing. It is just feeling. There is just pressure when I push on objects. I’m pushing on my duvet and feeling pressure and resistance. Sensations don’t have a name at origin. There feels like there is no gap between the table. I can feel my pulse as I push down on the table.

It is all just feeling. I catch myself taking credit for these experiences almost immediately.
Good, that you can see this :)

Test it out with a little experiment if an separate „I“ is needed for experience to happen. All you need is 10 to 20 minutes (a timer would be great), a pen & paper.

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.


Like this:

I am laying in my bed.
I am hearing the rain,
I am typing these words
I have tensions in my neck
I think about work..
and so on......

Do it for 5-10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 5-10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:


Waiting for next thought,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the rain
thinking about enlightenment
tension in shoulder.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Thanks for the support. :-)
with pleasure :)

I found the second one truer. I could sense more of a disconnect with the first one and felt less in the flow.

Without labels is pure sensation. It feels wholesome. Labels create a sense of separation from the view of me. ‘ Me’ or I seems to get in the way.

I felt more peaceful with the second exercise. It forced me to address immediate experience without a need to own it.

Thank you. Enjoyed this one Image




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