No religion know God

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:12 pm

Hello Kelly

What part of the world do you live in and what is it like? I am in the south of England.
Hello Again Simon,Ive been thinking and writing down my answers to these questions all weekend.I hope you find my answers relevant to our search.The more I learn the more I realize there’s so much more.Thank you for taking the time with me.I see this was a big commitment from both of us....1)Does it have to exclude Life is here for us.
“I guess the thought shows me life doesn’t need us or our help to exist.Life doesn’t need our rules..A happier thought belief would be that it cares but I don’t see the connection yet.”
Thank you for your very comprehensive answers :-) Yes, commitment and determination are needed . Yes, lots more  to come.

2
)Could it be both at the same time.
“I guess but I don’t understand its purpose if the me doesn’t exist”
Have a think about the need to know of a purpose for life. Can you be relaxed surrendering to not knowing? What would change if you did know?
3)What are the differences between life and us.”I don’t feel like we have a say. Its like it or lump it and I hope that’s not true. Its just a thought and feeling I guess”
Like it or lump it” Do we need to do either? What if we make no judgements about it? This is a great area for enquiry. If we don’t have a say, what can we be responsible for? Have a look at this question and let me know what comes up please (feelings as well as thoughts).
Next time you find a situation happening and your mind says “lump it”, observe closely who is making the judgement and where it comes from, can you identify anything in reality or is it just thoughts. Thiose thoughts that come up, are they about reality or stories, what happened in the past, or are they going into the the future?


4)Is there separation between a sensation and the experience of it.”Not sure I understand question”

Lets do some work here and actually look:

Please close your eyes and run your fingers along your fore arm, or any other part of your body, perhaps try several. Is there a you in this experience, is there a forearm, leg, hand, etc and a finger touching these. The two parts of your body touching, is this just a thought laid over a raw sensation of touch.Is there an experiencer and an experience, or is it all just one sensation. Touch sensing is happening.

Then keep your eyes closed and listen to any sounds occurring. Is there a me hearing, is there a location out there or in here, can you separate the sound “out there” in an external space and time from the hearing of that sound, or is there just the sound happening and no gaps between? Can you see a barrier between something making the sound and the awareness the sound is happening in. Is the sound inside you, outside you, both? Are the thoughts attributing the sound and making judgements and stories about it actually happening in reality or are they being added to it?

Go to the park for a walk, or by the sea or countryside. Whilst there, notice everything that is going on using all your senses actively, weather, air, grass, trees, animals, sounds, people, insects, temperature, and including any thoughts or feelings that are going on. Now, look for a line or separation in all this experience behind which is a 'me' and beyond which is 'everything else'. Can such a line or edge be found? Try this at places you have felt good at and like the experience you get there.

Another good exercise is to sit quietly face to face with your partner or a good friend and look into her eyes for a few minutes. Don’t actively communicate in any way, just look deeply and experience (try to from the silent mind you have found rather than the analysing mind). What comes up as emotions and what do you see?



5)How am I finding this believing less in thought good points bad points.”Love this question.It causes me to turn to my awareness and ask it if what I’m thinking is truth.Gives me more of a desire to meditate.Theres not much bad about it.Thanks for the question”

Good news that theres no bad news!!!

6)Can you describe this awareness,what properties does it have?is it changed or affected by thought or experiences.”No,Its not changed by thought.Seems to either tell you or makes you be at peace without giving the answer.(I do wish I understood my awareness more than who I’ve always thought I was).”Properties?Im unable to answer at this time.”

Try sitting within your awareness during meditation and then becoming aware of that awareness and what is happening in it. Don’t concentrate or think about the awareness but just be conscious of its presence. How does being in that awareness feel? When you did the eye looking exercise with a partner, was any awareness present, what did you see?

7)How is awareness (I)separated from what is experienced(life).”It’s as if it stands in the shadows and awaits my recognition.I seem to engage in the experience separately. Though I would wish to be mor connected to my awareness”

The exercises above may help with this. Also when you meditate and still the mind you become more connected, just a process of practice makes this happen more and more. The process is about letting go and just experiencing. It is normal to just have glimpses in the beginning but eventually its possible you will be aware of awareness al the time
8)Is there an edge or line to be found between the “you”and sensations or thoughts ie life?”Again I can’t answer that question at this time because I don’t find the relation between them”

The exercises above may help with this

9)How is an (I)related to awareness.How is a we (all sentient beings)related to awareness.”Wow another good question and not enough time to answer in a sentence.It makes me wonder if that’s why we are here!.Kinda the purpose of life.Who ever will lose themselves will find themselves...I could be way off track from what your wanting me to see”


You are on track 😊

10)How is my awareness different from any other aware beings awareness?”I have pondered this question and my only guess would be its all the same once you’ve discovered it”

Bingo. 😊. This is why many Buddhist (and Hindu) teachers say “you are already a buddha but don’t know it”, and why folks talk of “waking up” as a natural way of being, removing wrong old beliefs and seeing what is, rather than forming any new beliefs.

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mohawk
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Re: No religion know God

Postby mohawk » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:09 pm

Hello Simon! I am from northern part of the USA.what it’s like is our President Donald Trump is the big debate that the media loves.
1)could it be both”yes I guess it could be both and yes I can easily set it aside”
2)what would change if I did know”If I did know I would just have more questions anyway so I’m glad to not know for a while”
3)like it or lump it”I like that idea to not make judgements because you learn more that way so thank you for that advice.The lump it part is actuall just a thought that I don’t need to tripped up on”
4)is there a separation between sensation and experience of it”If I’m understanding then what I get from it and the example you gave me to do I would say they are together,sensation and EXPERIENCER.Experiencer we confuse as a self ?right?.Dont know why I’m having a hard time with this”
5)being aware of awareness”It puts me into a LOOKING so to speak and a HAPPENING without judgements”.......”so does awareness have a personality or is that all it does is stare,gaze,watch?????.Sorry but that’s my mind asking a stupid question in a child like way”
“I really hope awareness isn’t going to make me a boring person and change me in a disconnected way.Thees no turning back for me now knowing the treasures and richness that awaits “ I’m thankful you are my guide on this journey

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:26 pm

Hi Kelly

1)could it be both ”yes I guess it could be both and yes I can easily set it aside”
Great

2)what would change if I did know” If I did know I would just have more questions anyway so I’m glad to not know for a while”
Great, this place of not knowing can be a restful place.



To help with the feelings of needing to know (so maybe we can/should act thoughts will tell us)….

Lets see what the "self" is in control of when actions are taken....Is there a chooser...how does choosing happen...?

Please place both hands on a table palm down. After a minute one hand must be raised in the air above your head whilst the other one will remain where it is. Notice where the 'choice' is made (between hands)
Can the very point of choice be detected, the exact moment? Does something choose? Noticing what happens, what makes the one hand go up in the air?


3)like it or lump it”I like that idea to not make judgements because you learn more that way so thank you for that advice.The lump it part is actuall just a thought that I don’t need to tripped up on”
Great. I found this difficult to settle into for a while but I find it indispensable now. I ask myself...who exactly is having to "lump" this, or "like" this?

4)is there a separation between sensation and experience of it”If I’m understanding then what I get from it and the example you gave me to do I would say they are together,sensation and EXPERIENCER.Experiencer we confuse as a self ?right?.Dont know why I’m having a hard time with this”
Yes definitely together and not separated. This is a key thing to get. A sensation and how it is experienced are not separate. The experiencer is NOT needed for this, does not exist if you look. I think probably just more looking in this way is needed. Yes, the “self” claims the experience but this claim, if you look at it, is simply in the form of thought that happens afterwards and talks about the experience. Do you clearly see that the experience is real and that it triggers a thought that is real in that it is a “container” but that the “content” of the thought is NOT REAL? Can the awareness of something be separated from the something that we are aware of?


Lets look at looking
I would like you to do a simple exercise.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?
-
Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing differ?


Please close your eyes, and imagine the spoon again.

Are there actual colours there?
Or there are only visual thoughts of colours?

And are there actual forms there?
Or there are only visual thoughts of forms?

Are the imagined colours are actual colours?
Or just thoughts ABOUT colours?

Are those colours and shapes actually seen, or just imagined?



Lets separate "hearing" and "thinking". Listen to this sound: http://soundbible.com/889-Noise.html

What kind of sound is this?
Is it coming from more than one source?
Watch, how ideas or images arise that fit/explain/complement the sound.
Can you see how there is the bare experience of hearing, and at the same time thinking is happening, trying to label the experience?




Ultimately, nothing is separated, right. There is only this-here-now. However, we use (illusionary) labels, concepts and language as tools here. Sound is happening in the oneness, then thinking is happening.

So there is the bare reality of 'hearing' and there is stuff that pops up in your mind, which apparently only serves speculation about reality


Is the "receiver" something that you can sense in direct experience?
Is it something separated from experience?


being aware of awareness”It puts me into a LOOKING so to speak and a HAPPENING without judgements”.......”so does awareness have a personality or is that all it does is stare,gaze,watch?????.Sorry but that’s my mind asking a stupid question in a child like way”]
“I really hope awareness isn’t going to make me a boring person and change me in a disconnected way.Thees no turning back for me now knowing the treasures and richness that awaits “ I’m thankful you are my guide on this journey


Good progress, this is the space that it is helpful to be in. Asking questions like a child is a good thing, free of assumptions, Zen practitioners call it "Beginners Mind". Lets look again at awareness and you can give me some answers from your direct experience…..


Lets do an exercise about awareness


Go to the park for a walk, or by the sea or countryside. Whilst there, notice everything that is going on using all your senses actively, weather, air, grass, trees, animals, sounds, people, insects, temperature, and including any thoughts or feelings that are going on. Now, look for a line in all this experience behind which is a 'me' and beyond which is 'everything else'. Can such a line or edge be found? Try this at places you have felt good at and like the experience you get there.

Another good exercise is to sit quietly face to face with your partner and look into their eyes for a few minutes.

Don’t actively communicate in any way, just look deeply and experience (try to from the silent watching mind you have found (and we have labelled awareness) rather than the analyzing mind that generates thoughts). What happened when you did this?

I am thankful I am your guide as well :-) I hope you enjoy the excercises.

Sending Love
Simon

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mohawk
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Re: No religion know God

Postby mohawk » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:01 pm

Simon,I’m absorbing your questions.Feeling and seeing something beautiful.For the first time I’m seeing that awareness is full of love and all of loves attributes.Its almost to much and I’m hoping I’m ready for it.I can really get what you said about the container and our thought content about it not being real but experience is.im going to keep reading your reply for I feel the experiments and the rereading is helpful.

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:11 pm

Hi Kelly

There was a lot in my last post, take your time working through these examples and exercises in the way that feels right for you. I firmly believe that you will be ready for whatever you experience. There is no you doing this has been my experience, it happens on its own when its time, trust in this. Sometimes it seems too much but thats your old habits and fears pushing back.

Please keep posting, I am very happy to share your experiencees.

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mohawk
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Re: No religion know God

Postby mohawk » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:09 pm

Hello Simon,So my weekend was filled with thought about there being a chooser and pinpointing where the chooser is.Could not find one.The chooser is much like thoughts that we are not thoughts nor the chooser.Neither one exists as a me.Im coming to the conclusion we are nothing more then awareness(As just a matter of fact).So where do I go from here?Feel like I’ve started over but yet refreshing.All of this just shows how ridiculous suffering can be and how we torture ourselves.It shows how important it is we don’t make assumptions based on intense feelings and experiences because they are just that,”Experiences and sensations”.Though all this is not earth shattering its a great relief to not be so hard on myself but to rest into awareness..We tend to live our entire existence for a me that doesn’t exist.Thank you! Now I need to know the rules because I still know so little

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mohawk
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Re: No religion know God

Postby mohawk » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:14 pm

Feel the need to clarify “Rules”. It’s more about I’m new to walking in this light and want to get it right.Its not like I can go to a gathering of one mind and have these chats.So please disregard “RULES”

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:13 pm

Hi Kelly

It looks like a lot of things are opening up for you, exciting times. I will write a longer reply tomorrow but just wanted to post some encouraging words today. Keep exploring, your doing great.

Well done Kelly!

Simon

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:46 pm

Hi Kelly

As usual I have some questions.
So where do I go from here?Feel like I’ve started over but yet refreshing. All of this just shows how ridiculous suffering can be and how we torture ourselves.
“Refreshing” sounds great, can you tell me a bit more about this feeling of starting over?
If I say “there is no you and there is nowhere to go.” How does that feel to you? What happens if you go into meditation and just ask the question above “where do I go from here?” of your awareness, what comes up? Do you feel like changing anything, exploring certain areas more?

Now I need to know the rules because I still know so little
Feel the need to clarify “Rules”. It’s more about I’m new to walking in this light and want to get it right.Its not like I can go to a gathering of one mind and have these chats.So please disregard “RULES”
I feel this could be a very fruitful area of enquiry. I would like you to look at “Rules”. Where would these rules come from? What would they be? Also have a think please about what getting it right looks like, and also about what the opposite, getting it wrong looks like. Who decides and how? If you got it wrong could anything good happen from that (you might learn something)? Are the states “right” and “wrong” permanent? What qualities would they have?

I would like us to have a closer look at thoughts, to really look for the “controller” and also for “continuity”
Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?


It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another

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mohawk
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Re: No religion know God

Postby mohawk » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:06 pm

Hello Simon my friend,My internet was down for couple days.once again you’ve given me much to chew on.Here are a couple answers but plan on giving much thought over weekend to your questions
The feeling of starting over”I don’t feel the need for a spiritual search/quest.No need to search for my soul.I am awareness from the same source as everyone else”
How I feel that there is no me”Makes me realize all the more how much we are the actors on the stage of life.Its as if this is why we are here.To tame our human ways and to bring ourselves into submission.We come here to wear a suit and our awareness sits back and watches everything.We respond we react and get caught up in it all.But when we meditate we see we are not that”

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:17 pm

Hello Kelly

Great realisations, thank you for sharing.

I hope you have a lot of fun and realisations from the new questions and insights over the weekend.

Very much looking forward to talking to you once you are done and have posted back here.

Simon

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mohawk
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Re: No religion know God

Postby mohawk » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:20 pm

Hello Simon,had a bit of encouragement from meditation this weekend.All this provoking thought has help with meditation which I will share hopefully through your questions
Where I go from here.”Best way I can explain it is I must do as awareness/existence does and that’s to not live in past or future but to “vibrate”with what is.Not to cast thought or judgment to what arises inwardly nor outwardly.”....
The rules “”I am to constantly remind myself when going about the day that I am not the “me”That my thoughts tell me when in a “thought loop”””.Rule2 “To reduce the thinking that becomes collective enough to hypnotically sweep me away into a “me” and have to reel my self back.”””
Rule 3 “Is to realize my thoughts want to control me with rules.lol.sounds crazy ay?”
Did I do anything to make thoughts appear”No”
Can I predict the next thought”On the merry go round of thought they are all screaming pick me and this is where your swept away”
“”Sooooo the greatest take away I saw in meditation is I am not my feelings and sensations.Unfortunately that has been the thing that has caused me the most hardship in my life and given a pathway for a flood of thoughts to be controlled by.Feelings+sensations=Escapism”
Simon,I can only see glimpses of light through the trees but I’m not out in the open yet.All I can do is to keep walking to see where your leading and that’s what I mean when I say I want to get it right.

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:15 pm

Hello Kelly

Your honesty and enthusiasm for making progress are making me very optimistic that you will see through the illusion of self.
Hello Simon,had a bit of encouragement from meditation this weekend.All this provoking thought has help with meditation which I will share hopefully through your questions
Where I go from here.”Best way I can explain it is I must do as awareness/existence does and that’s to not live in past or future but to “vibrate”with what is.Not to cast thought or judgment to what arises inwardly nor outwardly.”....
Yes, this is a great way to be. It kind of happens automatically as your understanding deepens.
Can you see that the thoughts and judgements have no power to actually affect anything in reality?
A key point is that there is no real separation between you and existence. You are together in the present. I encourage you to keep doing the exercise of going out to places where you feel “at one” with nature and just experience what that is like, the freedom and lack of boundaries and judgements. Look for a line where inside meets outside, is there such a line? Look at a tree to see if life is happening to a tree or as a tree. And how about your human form: is life happening to a human, body, sensation or AS?


The rules “”I am to constantly remind myself when going about the day that I am not the “me”That my thoughts tell me when in a “thought loop”””.Rule2 “To reduce the thinking that becomes collective enough to hypnotically sweep me away into a “me” and have to reel my self back.”””
Rule 3 “Is to realize my thoughts want to control me with rules.lol.sounds crazy ay?”


Kelly no rules are needed one you have gated. Who is the doer that would enforce these rules and is doing the reminding? Back to basics.
I breathe or breathing happens. If I is just a thought how can it breathe?
Can I stop you breathing, stop your heart?
So please can you go into meditation and then ask the question….
“Is there I?”
Look closely at what happens after you ask and let me know.

Did I do anything to make thoughts appear”No”
Can I predict the next thought”On the merry go round of thought they are all screaming pick me and this is where your swept away”
“”Sooooo the greatest take away I saw in meditation is I am not my feelings and sensations.
Yes….you got it 

Unfortunately that has been the thing that has caused me the most hardship in my life and given a pathway for a flood of thoughts to be controlled by.Feelings+sensations=Escapism”

Yes, I do get it. You are seing clearly a lot now. Do you need to escape? Why? Who would be escaping and to where?

Simon,I can only see glimpses of light through the trees but I’m not out in the open yet.All I can do is to keep walking to see where your leading and that’s what I mean when I say I want to get it right.

Yes. You have the motivation. That is enough. Lets keep going.

Sending love and blessings.

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mohawk
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Re: No religion know God

Postby mohawk » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:32 pm

Hello Simon,
It’s overwhelming to see how feelings and sensations can keep you under this illusion of living.When you said Thoughts and judgments have no power to actually affect anything in REALITY I can really relate to that because it is there where I see no separate self.
..Kinda feel like I’ve hit a road block but at the same time I realize it’s a big step in this journey.I don’t feel like there is an separate self that goes to the other side at death with all its experiences,identities,separateness and such.I feel we are presence,nature and awareness.In no way am I saying I think I’ve got it.Im hungry I think there’s more and there’s no turning back.....Just to highlight a couple of your thoughts”Yes breathing happens”Is there I in meditation “This is where I am stumped....Being out in nature is hard right now because of our weather this season.But when I am I do feel one with it.I do sense nature speaking to itself.It is in nature I feel fullness””I know that I’m writing very randomly.Have lots of emotion.Feel like I’m getting it and at same time feel discouraged.Your last paragraph do you need to escape,why and who would be escaping feels almost like a trick question but I get where your going with it.lol...Thanks for your commitment to communicating to me.

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Sunyata67
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Re: No religion know God

Postby Sunyata67 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:59 pm

Hi Kelly
t’s overwhelming to see how feelings and sensations can keep you under this illusion of living.When you said Thoughts and judgments have no power to actually affect anything in REALITY I can really relate to that because it is there where I see no separate self.
Its great that you are seeing this, keep being aware and seeing how this happens, it may less and less overwhelming the more you do it. Where there is resistance or a feeling of being overwhelmed or not coping is often where the greatest progress can be made.
..Kinda feel like I’ve hit a road block but at the same time I realize it’s a big step in this journey.I don’t feel like there is an separate self that goes to the other side at death with all its experiences,identities,separateness and such.I feel we are presence,nature and awareness.In no way am I saying I think I’ve got it.Im hungry I think there’s more and there’s no turning back.....
Yes, I think there is more to do. Its good that you are feeling there is no turning back, I know this feeling.
Just to highlight a couple of your thoughts”Yes breathing happens”Is there I in meditation “This is where I am stumped....
We will come back to this I think.
Being out in nature is hard right now because of our weather this season.But when I am I do feel one with it.I do sense nature speaking to itself.It is in nature I feel fullness””I know that I’m writing very randomly.Have lots of emotion.Feel like I’m getting it and at same time feel discouraged.
How does feeling discouraged arise, where exactly is this feeling? please look at this. What is feeling discouraged made up of? Who is feeling discouraged?

Emotions are good, they mean changes are happening, real ones and not just thoughts.
Your last paragraph do you need to escape,why and who would be escaping feels almost like a trick question but I get where your going with it.lol...Thanks for your commitment to communicating to me.
I am wanting now to try and hone in on the “escaping” piece.
I think its good that you get where this could be going.

How would escaping be done, what would a successful escape look like?

What would be escaping?

What would it be escaping from?

Please sit with the things that trigger this need to escape?

If they are unpleasant, what is unpleasant about them?

Please try and look behind the unpleasantness at where these feelings are coming from?

This may be a hard thing to do but my feeling is that it will be worth the effort.

Do you have doubts when I say..." there is no you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form"?
If you have doubts what are they?

Love

Simon


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