I need help to see again and again.

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GemmaSue
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I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:21 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My enquiry has taken me to a place where the above statement seems to be the truth. The joke is the paradox I experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
confirmation and validation that what I have seen so far in my investigation is the truth. I am a person that finds truth in experience, so I am also wondering if this method of written exchange will be one that helps me personally.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be pointed to the seeing again and again, to be challenged if need be. I hope to be able to experience a familiarity with the LU teachings and be guided to the ultimate truth. I also on the other hand don't know what to expect and feel open to what wants to arise.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
satsang, meditation, enquiry workshops and models such as Circling.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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flowings
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby flowings » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:51 pm

Welcome GemmaSue!

My name is Daniel, I normally do guiding in German, but since there is such a long waiting list here in the English section, I decided to help out. So maybe every now and then I might ask if I don't understand. And please help me a bit: ask whenever I write stuff that sounds funny/wrong - language wise.
Are you OK with that?

( looking for)
confirmation and validation that what I have seen so far in my investigation is the truth.
Of course, I am not capable to confirm where you are. Only you can do that. However, using the tool 'Direct Pointing' will eventually clear all doubts. When you realize crystal clearly, that the separated self is merely a false believe, there will be no more hesitating.

I also on the other hand don't know what to expect and feel open to what wants to arise.
This is a good starting position!
Expectations can be quite a hindrance when it comes to clear seeing of what is. They can drag ones look towards a mind made idea of how things should or could be.
All we do in this enquiry is to look at the actual reality happening now. However, no one is totally free of expectations, so I might give you a friendly poke every now and then (poke you? Can I say that in English?)

So I guess you read the Read this first informations already,? Especially:
How does it work/ concerning liberation/ disclaimer.

So shall we begin?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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GemmaSue
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:13 pm

Hi Daniel,

Thanks so much for picking up my post. I don't mind that you poke me when needed, I'm open to that.

Also I'm happy to explain things further where and when you need, that's also not a problem.


I have indeed already read the information suggested.

Yes, please, let's begin!

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flowings
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby flowings » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:40 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My enquiry has taken me to a place where the above statement seems to be the truth. The joke is the paradox I experience.
So let's have a look here, just checking if I get you right:

By claiming "statement seems to be the truth" - what do you mean by that exactly? Did you weigh up different possibilities and then eventually decided non-self "seems to be the truth" because it all makes sense to you / "feels right"?

And what exactly is the paradox you experience like?
Is it like "I am pretty much convinced, that there is no separated self" but still I experience one"?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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GemmaSue
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:45 pm

So it's actually more accurate to say that my experience has led me to know the truth of the statement ie, I have and do continue to know that there is no real inherent self. The understanding of this has helped me a huge amount when it comes to being triggered. When this happens I am more readily able to see through the illusion.

It is when a deeper trigger or wound comes up in me that it takes a lot longer to realise the illusion of self. So rather than it being an instant remembering and then a dispersing of thoughts , followed by relaxation, the realisation of the illusion is delayed.

So it's clearer to say I am totally convinced that there is no separate self, but I seem to forget that when a deeper trigger is arising. In those moment the self gets in the drivers seat and doesn't budge as quickly.

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flowings
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby flowings » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:09 pm

It is when a deeper trigger or wound comes up in me that it takes a lot longer to realise the illusion of self.

the realisation of the illusion is delayed.

I am totally convinced that there is no separate self, but I seem to forget that when a deeper trigger is arising. In those moment the self gets in the drivers seat and doesn't budge as quickly.
So youre not happy with this.

This is what you want, right?
being an instant remembering and then a dispersing of thoughts , followed by relaxation,
Please tell me more about this.
Let's have a deeper look on your expectations.

What will it be like when you are 'done' here?
What will be different, how will it affect your life?


Looking forward to reading your reply!
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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GemmaSue
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:20 pm

I don't have an expectation that I will be able to see through illusion quicker. I have a hope that I'll be able to see through illusion quicker.

That is how I'm hoping life will change.

Maybe I am being too hard on myself. But it is only because I believe it is possible.

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flowings
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby flowings » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:49 pm

So you have a hope that your life will change, and you believe it's possible to get there.
Is this your aspiration?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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GemmaSue
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:48 pm

I don't hope my entire life will change, its just this one aspect.

It's this aspect which remains a mystery.

When triggered on shallower levels, I am able to realise the illusion quickly. When triggered on a deeper level it take way more time.

In both instances there in no self to be found. So then why when triggered deeply can't I see the illusion just as quickly?

It is this aspect about my life I hope to transform.

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flowings
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby flowings » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:35 am

Okay I understand.
(And I know very well what you are talking about)

These emotional and behaviour patterns that pull the trigger can still exist after seeing no self. And whenever triggered, the old self illusion jumps out of the box, performing what it has learned.
Why not? It's still an illusion, isn't it?

Seeing self for what it really is - a story, does not mean that your life is suddenly upgraded in every conceivable way. Old habits, beliefs, programming and conditioning will very probably remain in place. Awakening from the story of you allows old patterns to drop away gradually. The foundation upon which these patterns were based is gone. In this sense, liberation is just the beginning..
Don't try to reject it, whenever being triggered. Let it happen. Thinking too much about it, might distract you from the enquiry of the actual experience. This-here-now is where the magic happens.

Let's put a virtual bookmark here. We will come back to this topic later and check again. For know, I would suggest to put these issues aside (if possible) in order to change the focus and work yourself through some Direct Pointing to deepen & reinforce your experience.

How do you feel about that?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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GemmaSue
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:32 am

Yes let's go, let's deepen! :)

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flowings
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby flowings » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:37 pm

Let's start here:

Relax yourself. Use your meditation experience to settle down in the now.
Then (with closed eyes) focus on hearing.

Observe, how the mind is separating and labelling the different sounds that surround you.

Can you realize that the actual experience of hearing and the attached thoughts that arise are different experiences?

Next, focus only on the bare experience of hearing. Don't try to avoid thinking, just let thinking run in the background. If you get lost in thoughts, just take note of it and return to hearing.
When observing the direct experience of hearing:

Can you know anything about a source of sound, without looking at the mind-made labels?

Can you spot a center inside your body, to which the hearing is happening? Is there a receiver of sound to find?

Is hearing happening inside or outside your body?



Do this exercise for fifteen minutes or so. Also, you can return to this whenever possible in everyday life (preferably with eyes open, especially while driving a car or so ;)
Please answer to all the questions who are in italic.

Don't think about it, just LOOK in your very present actual experience!
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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GemmaSue
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:10 pm

1. Yes I know the sound is there and happening, I know from what it comes from. But I don't know anything about it's true origin or where I comes from.

2. Yes there is a receiver, ie the body responds, however there is no location that can be found in me.

3. It's happening inside and outside, it is everywhere.

I don't know how to do the italic from my phone. I hope my response is clear.

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flowings
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby flowings » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:02 pm

I don't know how to do the italic from my phone. I hope my response is clear.
Misunderstanding. The questions/pointers that I give are written in italic.
Please answer them one by one; and make use of the quote function please. Makes life easier for both of us.
Here's a description how to use the quote function

1. Yes I know the sound is there and happening, I know from what it comes from. But I don't know anything about it's true origin or where I comes from.
I don't understand. You say that you know what it comes from but you don't know where it comes from?

2. Yes there is a receiver, ie the body responds
Sorry, I have to ask again, just to avoid misunderstandings: Do you mean, that the body is the receiver or do you mean that the body answers: "there is a receiver"?

3. It's happening inside and outside, it is everywhere.
Good. Is there an inside and outside to find at all in actual experience of hearing?

Please also reply to this question:
Can you realize that the actual experience of hearing and the attached thoughts that arise are different experiences?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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GemmaSue
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Re: I need help to see again and again.

Postby GemmaSue » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:25 pm

don't understand. You say that you know what it comes from but you don't know where it comes from?
Yes ie, the sound comes from an object, ie, the phone wings and there is a sound. But I don't know how the sound arrives in the space, it just does.
Sorry, I have to ask again, just to avoid misunderstandings: Do you mean, that the body is the receiver or do you mean that the body answers: "there is a receiver"?
The body is the receiver.
Good. Is there an inside and outside to find at all in actual experience of hearing?
No there is just everything, sound is arriving and going.
Can you realize that the actual experience of hearing and the attached thoughts that arise are different experiences?
How are they? Can you explain this please. Because I experience them as the same. They both arrive and from where they come, I don't know.


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