Registration

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
SimonR
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:40 am

Registration

Postby SimonR » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:43 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That there is no inherent ‘In, no subject feeling this or doing this. There is no separation between a conceived subject and an ‘other’ object. There is just ‘this’

What are you looking for at LU?
To facilitate an awareness of the seeing there is no ‘I’ and learning to bring this into daily life.To explore what lies behind or beyond the simple unadulterated experience of just this. To be involved in a like/ minded community

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To draw on some Support, to receive advice and to share in a sense of a shared ‘path’. I would like the dialogues to be mutually beneficial and I would like to think that I could, sooner or later, contribute to a wider awareness of this wonderful reality

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Long/time Zen practitioner. I am also a Buddhist (although on the secular end of the spectrum) I Have experienced a brief, and acknowledged, taste of the non-self (termed Kensho in zen) and would like to investigate and pursue this further. I have been drawn to the direct approach of LU

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:42 am

Hi Simon,

Sorry for the long wait. My name is Stacy and I can be your guide if you would like. If so, please read and do the following. Let me know when you have completed these.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
SimonR
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:40 am

Re: Registration

Postby SimonR » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:02 pm

Dear Stacy

Many thanks for your reply and guidance.And for giving me your time. I have read the disclaimer and FAQs and have posted answers to your questions below.
Can i ask also: Do I keep posting answers to this 'registration' thread? Thank you!

Simon
How will life change?

I’m not sure if it will much. Life is ok for me, I experience the ups and downs of life, I appreciate that many things just happen and are often out of my control. Generally, I enjoy life and really don’t want to change anything in this sense (and I don’t think I would be able to anyway, in a fundamental sense)
How will you change?
I’m not sure- Perhaps a decrease and/or disappearance of a way of viewing the world and ‘things’, (at most times), objectively, as separate. Something ‘in me’ knows this is the case (and I had a brief taste through a Zen experience a few years back), but cannot fully experience, or be it. To align ‘myself’ to a more intimate, non-dual, way of being


What will be different?
At one level, nothing will be different. But, there is a sense that perhaps life could be lived more ‘fully’, intimately, non-objectively, non-reactionary. To not keep stepping back into dualistic thinking and behaviour


What is missing?
I don’t think anything is missing, it’s just the recognition that that is actually the case, and that’s’ fine. On one level an intimacy with the world- but I don’t think its missing as such, rather it’s covered over by layers of thinking etc.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Hi Simon,

Yes, you keep posting to this thread. This is your conversation thread.

Your answers are good and pretty close to reality. Nothing will change and yet everything will be different. Let's proceed.


Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up. Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are! Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking. For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

This is how we will approach all of our exercises and conversations here. Actual or Direct Experience is the only thing we care about.


Actual or Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling/Touching (body sensations, not emotions)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (ONLY the fact that they do, NOT the content)


The exercises we start with will help you distinguish Thoughts Arising from the content of thought.

Looking forward to working with you. Let's try to post every day or every other day. I will be traveling for a couple of weeks for the holidays, but I'll do my best to keep up the flow of conversation here.

Much love!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
SimonR
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:40 am

Re: Registration

Postby SimonR » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:35 pm

Hi Stacy

Thank you for your reply.
Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.
Yes, this chimes very well with Zen Master Dogen’s ‘Mind before knowing’, I think (I have a Zen background). I don’t refer to this philosophically, but just for context- direct experience, unadulterated by reactive thought etc. However, for me, how to do this/and/or maintain this way of being is the issue
Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarificatio
Yes, understood
This is how we will approach all of our exercises and conversations here. Actual or Direct Experience is the only thing we care about
Great. Yes, this is all clear in theory, and convincing. Moving it from a convincing ‘idea’ or flash of insight to sustained ‘experience’ is the key, especially with the discernment of thought from thought content. In this light, I am looking forward to the exercises


Happy travels!- totally understand if difficult to timely respond in the circumstances. It's a busy time of the year!

love

Simon

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:50 am

Hi Simon,

Good, yes, we're going to take this out of the realm of theory. So, here's the next exercise:

Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with a list like the one above.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
SimonR
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:40 am

Re: Registration

Postby SimonR » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:15 pm

Dear Stacy

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with a list like the one above.


Some examples from exercise:

Ferry journey

Sensation of engine vibration - just sensation
Sound of talk and engine-just sound
Sight of room and people/ just sight
Thoughts but Tendency of though to pull towards it
No smell as I have a cold!- just sensation of no perceptible smell

By the sea

Waves crashing and shingle - just sound
Expanse of sea. - just shape colour
Thought- just thoughts coming and going
Wind- just sensation

Driving

Hand on wheel/ sitting in seat- just sensation
Sound of engine and road- just sound
Passing landscape- just colours and shapes
Thoughts of travelling and moving - just thought


Drinking coffee

Touch of cup- just sensation
Sitting in seat- just amorphous sensation
Taste of coffee - just taste
Smell of coffee- slight smell
Sound of voices-just sound
Thought- just thought (though as in other cases harder to not get pulled into)


Observations and queries:

‘Sound of the sea ‘ note that label of ‘sea ‘ comes second/just behind actual experience

Intimacy with experience through exercises - but sometimes life comes in ie someone talks to me, or thinking about what to have for dinner etc , a harsh voice that evokes reaction

At times the ‘application’ of exercises seems a little forced - an ‘exercise’ a sense of spaciousness is lost in a narrowing down of attention ?


Love

Simon

User avatar
SimonR
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:40 am

Re: Registration

Postby SimonR » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:40 am

Hi Stacy

Should I be posting more/daily examples?

Love

Simon

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:47 pm

no, I'm driving
I set but reply& I don't see it
will reply again later
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:37 pm

Hi Simon,

Mostly accurate answers. Good. Let's talk about a couple of them.
Sitting in seat- just amorphous sensation
Who taught you what "amorphous" is? Is it AE? or only content of thought about a Sensation?

At the same time, oddly, that is the exact exercise, the only exercise I was given in my guiding here. Find the point at which your butt ends and the chair begins. I looked for 2 or 3 months.

LOOK what is found?
‘Sound of the sea ‘ note that label of ‘sea ‘ comes second/just behind actual experience
Right. Is "sea" Actual Experience? What is the AE of "sea?"

At times the ‘application’ of exercises seems a little forced - an ‘exercise’ a sense of spaciousness is lost in a narrowing down of attention ?
Yes, we are looking at things in odd ways and it will feel unfamiliar and yes, a little forced.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with a list like the one above.


Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
SimonR
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:40 am

Re: Registration

Postby SimonR » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:05 pm

Hi Stacy

Who taught you what "amorphous" is? Is it AE? or only content of thought about a Sensation?
No not AE, AE is only AE
LOOK what is found?
Nothing is found- there is no boundary only what the mind/thought places there

Right. Is "sea" Actual Experience? What is the AE of "sea?
"

Just, sound, seeing etc...

D
irect Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

Have continued with this as before- ie walking, (just seeing 'things' , hearing sound, just sensation of moving etc
Swimming, just smell, sound, sensation, though - in fact all is just AE, whatever 'type the mind labels it (ie this is a sound, this is a smell etc)

love

Simon'

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:29 am

Hi Simon,

Thank you. All basically correct, except please follow this instruction from the exercise:

and report back with a list like the one above.

Ask, if that's not clear.

Thank you & much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:39 am

Oops! Wait. No more on that is needed.

Please forgive me. I'm on my cell phone & traveling, and sometimes I make mistakes.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

http://www.maryshomestead.com/sitebuild ... ruit.gif
When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure?

Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘.

What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?


There. That's better!

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
SimonR
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:40 am

Re: Registration

Postby SimonR » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:24 am

Hi Stacy

I hope you had good festive period
When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure?
- Just the seeing, the thinking, the sensation of holding
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.
-Thoughts give a memory of an apple, a reference, a memory of taste etc

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

-Only a colour or thought/recollection
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No
is an apple actually known?
No- just the thought/concept/memory

love
Simon

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1967
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: Registration

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:19 pm

Good morning

My festive period was spent visiting family. It was good & probably gets me off the hook for a couple more years. :)

How was yours?

Regarding the exercise...

Yes, exactly so. Finding no need for follow-up questions there. So, try this one:

Finding the Gap

This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear.

Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present. Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:

Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:


Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how that goes.


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest