Seeking I guess, always seeking.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:25 pm

Hi Liam,

It would be good if we stepped up the frequency of our exchanges.

Some guides insist from the outset on at least one post per day. I don't do that because there can be times when a day or two is needed to look at things. But in truth the more regular exchanges help to create a focus. That focus can make a big difference. And conversely it can be like repeatedly 'dropping the ball' where several days pass by between exchanges. So I wonder if you'd be willing to write more often?

All best

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:08 pm

Hi Jon.
It would be good if we stepped up the frequency of our exchanges.
Yes I do agree, the big issue for me right now is just putting aside the time to sit down and give a thorough reply and it seems it's really started to slip. My new job doesn't really give me anytime between work and sleep to do much else. I don't forget about what we're doing however, it's always on the forefront of my mind. I'll do what I can to improve this.
Now, look for a line or edge in experience behind which lies 'you' and beyond which lies 'everything else'. Can such an edge be found?
It's important that it should be nature or perhaps a park with trees, and grass would do.
I probably won't get much chance to involve myself in nature till the weekend. Instead my inquiry has pivoted back towards effort and intention, as those things are what feel like strong pieces of evidence of a separate self. It can be quite frustrating. I've been experimenting with trying to take 'my' hands off the wheel of Liam. If there's no separate self, then this 'me' idea is not the conductor, nothing is. I certainly can't see a 'me' asserting control, so I'm testing it's effects. When I attempt to relinquish control, all the thoughts and feelings and actions continue on as always. The only thing that seems to have changed is an idea about intent. I don't seem to be able to take my hands of the wheel, or put them on.

Thanks for reading, I'll try reply much more frequently and will make some time to go out into nature on the weekend..

Liam.

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:42 am

I still frequently have been having those moments, where it all seems so obvious and clear and 'me' is nothing more than an empty idea. Then a moment later it's gone and 'me' feels real and true again. It's as if the mind is like "whoops forget the me for a second lets just get that back up and running again"

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:00 pm

Hi Liam,


Thanks for your posts. I realise and understand that you are very pushed for time. But althought it may sound unlikely these inquiries can still be successfully done whilst life's circumstances seem very busy. It isnt necessarily a matter of having a lot of time to contemplate or meditate, though that can sometimes help.

I still frequently have been having those moments, where it all seems so obvious and clear and 'me' is nothing more than an empty idea. Then a moment later it's gone and 'me' feels real and true again. It's as if the mind is like "whoops forget the me for a second lets just get that back up and running again"
Well, yes, I know what you mean. The trick is to notice in a once-and-for-all way that what thoughts are 'talking' about is fiction. Pure and simple. A case of mistaken identity; plus the habit of thinking that a real self were somehow 'here'.

That a 'me' feels real and true again could be looked at. You say 'feels'. I understand that but examine what is that feeling? Is there an energetic sensation in or around the body that corresponds to what is descrivbed as a feeling?

Is that sensation 'you' ?

Is there a long-held assumption (in thinking) that such feeling (sensation) is some kind of evidence or proof that an entity 'exists'?

All the best

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:22 pm

Hi Jon.
That a 'me' feels real and true again could be looked at. You say 'feels'. I understand that but examine what is that feeling? Is there an energetic sensation in or around the body that corresponds to what is descrivbed as a feeling?
It's hard to really pick and point to one specific feeling, I think I'm still stuck on the idea of being the feeler. Not in the sense I'm doing the feeling. I identify as the awareness of things

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:41 pm

I hit submit by accident there, bare with me while I get rest out

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:34 pm

It's so hard to communicate this. Feeler is the wrong word actually because I'm not saying that anyone is doing the feeling, there's no feeler and anything that is felt isn't me. I'm not saying that anyone is doing awareness either, it's more the fact that awareness exists at all appears to be evidence of self.

Maybe there's more but I'm really struggling with identifying this, it seems like a big blind spot. This just isn't the kind of stuff people talk about so really finding the words and describing it all is so difficult. I will say that whatever it is I don't think we have really touched on it directly. It's something to do with awareness I think. The is-ness of it.

Thanks

Liam.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:16 pm

Hi Liam,
.This just isn't the kind of stuff people talk about so really finding the words and describing it all is so difficult. I will say that whatever it is I don't think we have really touched on it directly. It's something to do with awareness I think. The is-ness of it.
No, you're right. Ours isn't a conventional conversation. Language is all we have and it is often full of dualistic references and assumed realities.

Your remark about 'is-ness' is interesting. I agree. Is-ness, awareness, is irrefutable. But do I find this to be some kind of evidence for thinking or feeling that there must be a self?

My wife is currently watching an espionage film on television, in which key players are moving around and apparently taking themselves and the unfolding drama seriously. Do I believe that these moving images are real entities inhabiting the screen?

They are not real, separate 'selves' but there is the real experience of images appearing. There is the illusion of 'selves'.

Is that any help?

Regards

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:43 pm

Hi Jon.
Your remark about 'is-ness' is interesting. I agree. Is-ness, awareness, is irrefutable. But do I find this to be some kind of evidence for thinking or feeling that there must be a self?
Hard to breakdown what exactly about it seems to jump out at me as evidence. I feel centered in awareness, everything is either happening around or to me. So my sense of location in space points to a me. I could say the consistency of awareness is a part of it too. Awareness is always there.
They are not real, separate 'selves' but there is the real experience of images appearing. There is the illusion of 'selves'.
A thing that makes this analogy hard for me is that the illusion on the TV can be turned off or you can watch something else. Awareness is endless, when it's off there's no way to know like being in deep sleep. Although I don't suppose the endlessness of awareness means there's a self. On further thought I would say in the TV example, being separate from the TV allows for it to be turned off. Perhaps it's not the consistency then and more the location of being here all the time.

It's all I have thanks.

Liam.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:26 am

Hi Liam
. Hard to breakdown what exactly about it seems to jump out at me as evidence. I feel centered in awareness, everything is either happening around or to me. So my sense of location in space points to a me. I could say the consistency of awareness is a part of it too. Awareness is always there.
You are not turning around inwards sufficiently to take a proper look.

What do you really want? The end of seeking is a real possibility here.

You confirm many times that a self cannot be found, no one 'doing' things or making things happen, so what kind of evidence is that for an entity?

"Awareness". OK. Yes. Noticing is happening. This is real.

But not 'me'. Not 'me in a location'. Not 'my awareness'.

The latter are, all assumptions ABOUT what's going on.

Have you tried to differentiate between ideas ABOUT life, what's (supposed to be) happening, and that which is actually experienced right now?

I am categorically NOT suggesting that someone should now think in terms of staying aware in the present moment at all times... And then feel that they can't do it. And then adopt the idea that it won't work FOR THEM.

But it's worth noticing what's actually happening right now, as distinct from all the things that could be possibly imagined to be happening to, in, for, because of or around the imagined "me".

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:34 pm

Hi Jon.
You are not turning around inwards sufficiently to take a proper look.
I guess not.
What do you really want? The end of seeking is a real possibility here.
There's an inner freedom and ease that's implied by not needing to place lots of responsibility and weight on this 'self', this controller of Liam. That the act of doing so is a great waste of energy. Is it possible though? I will never be able to say until it happens. Perhaps I'm expecting too much.
You confirm many times that a self cannot be found, no one 'doing' things or making things happen, so what kind of evidence is that for an entity?

"Awareness". OK. Yes. Noticing is happening. This is real.

But not 'me'. Not 'me in a location'. Not 'my awareness'.

The latter are, all assumptions ABOUT what's going on.

Have you tried to differentiate between ideas ABOUT life, what's (supposed to be) happening, and that which is actually experienced right now?
I can acknowledge that it's these are all ideas about self, and yes I have yet to find any self in experience. Yet that's not enough for me. It may just be an idea but that doesn't mean it's incorrect. Not seeing something doesn't disproves it's existence. I still can't shake the fact that I feel very much like 'I' am controlling 'Liam'. That typing here is something that 'I' am making happen and if I weren't then it would stop. I might not be making the thoughts appear or moving the muscles. There's the intent, and I appear to have power over that. To say that 'I' doesn't exist is still just an idea to me, one I would like to believe but is no more real or unreal as the idea that 'I' do exist, it's all just concepts and talk.

I'm being stubborn I know. I wish I could not. I'm trying to look at experience and prove otherwise but even the act of looking is reinforcing that 'I' am the one looking. So long as there is this sense of control it'll always point to 'me'.

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JonathanR
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby JonathanR » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:03 am

Hi Liam
. There's an inner freedom and ease that's implied by not needing to place lots of responsibility and weight on this 'self', this controller of Liam.
What one? Point right now exactly at the place where Liam is.

Notice the controlling going on. In what control room or place behind the scenes is this one to be found manipulating levers or pulling strings?

If it's hard to find this controller look a little more carefully. This is critical.

Is there a driver of life? Look to find out. It is ne essary to look.

Is there a thinker of thoughts? Look.

Do you notice the creator of thoughts, busy in the act of creating thoughts?

If you are that creator of thoughts surely it should be possible to know what is about to be thought and them make it so that no unpleasant thoughts appear?

I can only point. If you want to be sure about something don't rely on thinking you know an answer already. Check.
. I can acknowledge that it's these are all ideas about self, and yes I have yet to find any self in experience. Yet that's not enough for me
It's up to you to find the 'enough' (or lack of it). Certainly I can't do it for you. Don't be passive and inert. Dont be satisfied with entrenched beliefs. And if there is some anxiety about actually looking at no self be honest about it.

If you had any anxiety about whether or not there is a driver driving you along and controlling life what would you do?


All the best

Jon

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:39 pm

Hi Jon.
What one? Point right now exactly at the place where Liam is.

Notice the controlling going on. In what control room or place behind the scenes is this one to be found manipulating levers or pulling strings?

If it's hard to find this controller look a little more carefully. This is critical.

Is there a driver of life? Look to find out. It is necessary to look.

Is there a thinker of thoughts? Look.

Do you notice the creator of thoughts, busy in the act of creating thoughts?

If you are that creator of thoughts surely it should be possible to know what is about to be thought and them make it so that no unpleasant thoughts appear?

I can only point. If you want to be sure about something don't rely on thinking you know an answer already. Check.
As always I can never find this entity. but it's more clear to me from here that there's areas I'm not fully looking into and they do have to do with control. I'm maybe being a little hypocritical in that there's a an interest in investigating it but also hesitation in doing so. After all when I say there's a lot of weight being put on this "controller" idea, there's reason for doing so. It's a defense, a way to find a sort of hope in tough times. Where I can tell myself if "I" do the right thing in the right way I'll be able to defend against pain and suffering.

So yes, definitely there's some anxiety and hesitation going on.
If you had any anxiety about whether or not there is a driver driving you along and controlling life what would you do?
Sensible thing would be to look, wouldn't be able to relax without making sure to find out. That's kinda what has led me to this really.

I wanted to write to check in, past few days I feel as though I'm sorta getting there, but it's a slow bit at a time inquiry so I don't have anything concrete to say.

Thanks Liam

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:03 pm

It's not through lack of understanding, I think I'm just struggling with truly committing to let go of "me". But that fear is unfounded.

Conceptually it's clearer than it ever has been.

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Oneironaut
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Re: Seeking I guess, always seeking.

Postby Oneironaut » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:06 am

Attempts to look are triggering those moments of understanding more frequently and looking at them I'm seeing the sudden reaction that takes place after where the old assumed understanding is quickly put in, but I'm seeing it happen now and taking the opportunities to notice it every time and notice the reactions around it.


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