A hollow reed

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:35 am

Hi Alison,
V: So by which of the 5 senses ‘impulse’ is experienced?
A: sensation
How do you know that sensation is an ‘impulse’?
Does the raw sensation itself suggests or communicates at any way that it’s an ‘impulse’?
Or only thoughts suggest so?
V: What is the experience of this ‘indescribable impulse’?
Is it a thought? Sound? Sensation? Imagination?
A: Its a sensation
What we are investigating here is to see the difference between reality/experience and thought/fiction.
Is this clear?


So the sensation is experienced, undeniably.
But does an ‘indescribable impulse’ is experienced?
Is the ‘indescribable impulse’ is more than a thought label attached to the sensation?
Can you see that the sensation doesn’t communicate any way that it’s an ‘impulse’?
Can you see that this is just the experience of a sensation and only thoughts interpreting and categorizing sensations to this or that?


So you were saying that ‘indescribable impulse’ is experienced as a sensation. But this is a trick.
The sensation is the experience of a sensation but NOT the experience of an ‘indescribable impulse’.
The thought label ‘indescribable impulse’ is an arising thought, but NOT the experience of an ‘indescribable impulse’.
There is ZERO experience of an ‘indescribable impulse’. Is this clear?
V: What is the experience of ‘impending action’?
Is it a thought? Sound? Sensation? Imagination?
A: It is a thought
OK, it’s a thought, but ‘impending action’ is NOT EXPERIENCED.
Since thought content never ever experienced. Can you see this?

So the thought as an arising phenomenon is experienced, but what the thought is ABOUT isn’t. Is this clear?
I see what you're saying and I can also repeat thoughts to myself that are incredible anxiety provoking, enough to raise my heart rate, make me sweat and give me chest pain. Are these thoughts not part of experience?
Let’s look at this a bit more closely.

Thought is there, but what about its content (what the thought is about)?

Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘hot’ be felt?

Does any thought contain any experience?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:23 am

Hi Viven
How do you know that sensation is an ‘impulse’?
Does the raw sensation itself suggests or communicates at any way that it’s an ‘impulse’?
Or only thoughts suggest so?
Yes, I see your point. An impulse is meaningless. There is sensation that I'm attempting to label.

What we are investigating here is to see the difference between reality/experience and thought/fiction.
Is this clear?
Yes, I understand
So the sensation is experienced, undeniably.
But does an ‘indescribable impulse’ is experienced?
Is the ‘indescribable impulse’ is more than a thought label attached to the sensation?
Can you see that the sensation doesn’t communicate any way that it’s an ‘impulse’?
Can you see that this is just the experience of a sensation and only thoughts interpreting and categorizing sensations to this or that?
Yes, I see this.
So you were saying that ‘indescribable impulse’ is experienced as a sensation. But this is a trick.
The sensation is the experience of a sensation but NOT the experience of an ‘indescribable impulse’.
The thought label ‘indescribable impulse’ is an arising thought, but NOT the experience of an ‘indescribable impulse’.
There is ZERO experience of an ‘indescribable impulse’. Is this clear?
Yes, I see this.

V: What is the experience of ‘impending action’?
Is it a thought? Sound? Sensation? Imagination?
A: It is a thought
OK, it’s a thought, but ‘impending action’ is NOT EXPERIENCED.
Since thought content never ever experienced. Can you see this?
Yes, I see what you are saying. Impending action is a thought and not experienced.

Thought is there, but what about its content (what the thought is about)?
Yes, I see this. The thought arises but what it is about is not real.
Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘hot’ be felt?
no
Does any thought contain any experience?
no

thanks,
Alison

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:31 am

Hi Alison,
Yes, I see your point. An impulse is meaningless. There is sensation that I'm attempting to label.
“There is a sensation that I’m attempting to label” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in reality/experience?

Where is this ‘I’ labelling sensations?

What is it exactly that is labelling the sensation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:58 pm

Hi Vivien,
“There is a sensation that I’m attempting to label” – what does the word ‘I’ point to in reality/experience?
"I" points to nothing is reality/experience.
Where is this ‘I’ labelling sensations?
This "I" doesn't exist in reality. It is a thought construct.
What is it exactly that is labelling the sensation?
Nothing is labeling the sensation. Labelling is a thought arising attempting to describe experience, but it is not the experience.

Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:32 am

Hi Alison,
This "I" doesn't exist in reality. It is a thought construct.
So can you say that you can SEE in experience with 100% certainty that the self is nothing else than an illusion?

That there is no controller?
No decider?
No thinker?
No feeler?
No experiencer?
No mover of the body?
No knower of experience?

Is there ANY doubt?


Please look very carefully with each question.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:07 pm

Hi Vivien,
So can you say that you can SEE in experience with 100% certainty that the self is nothing else than an illusion?

That there is no controller?
No decider?
No thinker?
No feeler?
No experiencer?
No mover of the body?
No knower of experience?

Is there ANY doubt?
Yes, I can see that the self is nothing else than an illusion. There is no doubt that there is no decider, thinker, feeler, experiencer, mover and knowing. Rather there is deciding, thinking, feeling, experiencing, moving and knowing. Alison does not do these things. She is a construct that has taken ownership of things that simply happen.

Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:26 am

Hi Alison,
Yes, I can see that the self is nothing else than an illusion. There is no doubt that there is no decider, thinker, feeler, experiencer, mover and knowing. Rather there is deciding, thinking, feeling, experiencing, moving and knowing. Alison does not do these things. She is a construct that has taken ownership of things that simply happen.
And how does it FEEL to see this?

So are you saying that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential one?

If there has been a shift, could you tell a bit more about the shift itself?
How does a shift itself felt?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:51 pm

Hi Vivien,
And how does it FEEL to see this?
I don't feel anything.
So are you saying that there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential one?
I can't be sure. maybe not.

If there has been a shift, could you tell a bit more about the shift itself?
How does a shift itself felt?[/quote]
I'm not sure. Things are just happening. Each moment has intensity.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:45 am

Hi Alison,

What I can see from your comments that you have a good intellectual understanding, but it didn’t sink deep enough, it not really experiential.

You are giving nice answers, but something is missing from your replies (depth, visceral recognition), since it’s on the intellectual level only.

But that’s all right, it just means that you have to look more.

And you have look differently.
Really LOOK at what IS and what isn’t.
It’s that simply.
Just looking at experience/reality as it is.

You have to forget everything you know intellectually about this topic, and become a clean slate.
Like a new born baby, who has no knowledge about how things work.

So, we are going to slow down this inquiry. I’m going to give you only one question this time.

And look with this question as often as possible during the day. Preferably 100 times a day, again and again and again… even when the answer seems to be clear, look again. But don’t think… just look.


What is the I, here and now, in this moment?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:38 am

Hi Vivien,
Yes, I think you're right. Before I answer your question, I want to be clear in what you mean by LOOK. I look with eyes out into world. There is no "I" out there. So what do you mean by LOOK?

Alison

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:50 am

Hi Alison,

Looking happens without thoughts… or thoughts might be present, but they are completely ignored.

Looking is what can be experience without any thought interpretation, logic, speculation, imagination.

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all thoughts and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.
I look with eyes out into world.
Actually, what you’ve just said is a belief! A common belief, but still it’s a belief.
But we don’t go there yet.

But with looking, I don’t necessarily mean to look and see with the eyes.
Rather to stick to the immediate experience.
What can be experienced.


Do you remember the spoon exercise?
It would be good if you could go back, and do that exercise again.


That exercise shows you what is looking.

Looking is about seeing the difference between imagination/thought and experience/reality.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:19 pm

Hi Vivien,
What is the I, here and now, in this moment?
I've been asking this a lot the last few days and looking and not thinking. What I see is being in the moment, being part of the moment. There is seeing, hearing and others sensations. When there is no thought, there is nothing present except the experience happening. I do not perceive an "I" but I do perceive this body. There is still a strong identification with the body. Intellectually I can understand how I am not the body, but experientially I experience the "I" as my body.

Could we do some questions around that...around the "I" being identified as the body?


thanks,
Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:13 am

Hi Alison,
Intellectually I can understand how I am not the body, but experientially I experience the "I" as my body.
You say: “experientially I experience the ‘I” as my body” – so tell me, HOW is it EXACTLY experienced that the I/self is the body?
As a thought? An image? A sensation? Sound? An imagination?

By which of the 5 senses it’s EXPERIENCED that I=body?

If the I were the body, then why do think and say: MY body, MY face, MY hand, MY digestion, etc.?

So which one do you believe:
- I am the body ( I = body)
OR
- I HAVE a body, It’s mine, I’m owning it, I’m feeling MY body, I’m moving my body, I’m living INSIDE this body?
I do not perceive an "I" but I do perceive this body.
How could the body be a self, if the body is being perceived?
Isn’t the self believed to be the perceiver?
Is the body the experiencer or the body itself is experienced?
There is still a strong identification with the body.
So if there is an identification with the body, then there must be a separate self who performs the act of identification.
So, WHAT is it exactly that identifies with the body?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Alybug
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Alybug » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:43 pm

Hi Vivien,
Apologies for the delay. I am starting a new job and I've been very distracted with that.This is important to me and I want to continue with our work.
You say: “experientially I experience the ‘I” as my body” – so tell me, HOW is it EXACTLY experienced that the I/self is the body?
As a thought? An image? A sensation? Sound? An imagination?
I tell myself, "this body is me, is Alison" I look at my face and see Alison. The sensations of my body I experience as "me". I see intellectually that this body a swirling mass of atoms like all matter organized in a configuration of a body, that life simply expresses itself through this mass. Experientially I'm still pretty hooked on "Alison is this body."

By which of the 5 senses it’s EXPERIENCED that I=body?
Visually,, the body is seen. The thought comes in and says it's I. The thought is not a sense, so it is imagination. The voice comes out and a though says that's me talking. again, the thought is not reality. Sensations are felt. again, the thought arises that these are my feelings. The thought is imaginary, not real. I see your point.
If the I were the body, then why do think and say: MY body, MY face, MY hand, MY digestion, etc.?
This is making me think. MY is like it belongs to me. It is something separate from me then it is my possession. Saying MY body says I am something and MY body is a separate thing that belongs to me. So what is the I that HAS a body? "I" can't be something AND the thing it possesses also. So I ask myself what is "I" then if it is not the body.
So which one do you believe:
- I am the body ( I = body)
OR
- I HAVE a body, It’s mine, I’m owning it, I’m feeling MY body, I’m moving my body, I’m living INSIDE this body?
So I believe that I HAVE a body.
How could the body be a self, if the body is being perceived?
OK, so it is an object being perceived. That which is perceived cannot be doing the perceiving. The self is doing the perceiving.
Isn’t the self believed to be the perceiver?
Yes
Is the body the experiencer or the body itself is experienced?
IT is experienced
So if there is an identification with the body, then there must be a separate self who performs the act of identification.
So, WHAT is it exactly that identifies with the body?
This is helpful. There is perceiving of the body by separate self. There is something identifying itself with the body. The thoughts equate "me" as body. I get that thoughts are not real, and I see where we are going. This is very helpful. Can we continue with this please. I want to really explore the illusion of the "I" and how it is holding on so strong to the body.

warmly,
Alison

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Vivien
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Re: A hollow reed

Postby Vivien » Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:40 am

Hi Alison,
Experientially I'm still pretty hooked on "Alison is this body."
And WHAT is it exactly that is hooked on, believing that ‘Alison is this body’?
WHAT is it EXACTLY that is thinking the thought ‘Alison is the body’?
Visually,, the body is seen. The thought comes in and says it's I.
Yes, there tend to be thoughts of “the body is me/I”.

But does this thought turn the body into an ACTUAL REAL self?
What makes the body INTO a self?

The voice comes out and a though says that's me talking. again, the thought is not reality. Sensations are felt. again, the thought arises that these are my feelings. The thought is imaginary, not real. I see your point.
Yes, what the thought is about is imaginary.

But WHAT is it that is thinking those thoughts?
What makes those thoughts to appear?

Where is the I, the self that is supposedly thinking the thought “I am talking” or “I am the body”?
WHERE exactly? Find the exact physical location with precision.
So what is the I that HAS a body? "I" can't be something AND the thing it possesses also. So I ask myself what is "I" then if it is not the body.
Exactly.

The body is there, undeniably. But where is the I, the self which OWNS the body? WHERE?
So I believe that I HAVE a body.
So WHAT is it and WHERE is it which is supposedly have a body?
There is something identifying itself with the body.
So WHAT and WHERE is this something that is identifying itself with the body?
What is it that is doing or performing the act of identification?
The thoughts equate "me" as body.
And what thinks this thought?

There might be a thought “I am the body”. The body is there, but WHERE is the I/self that is supposedly = body?
The sensations of my body I experience as "me".
WHAT is it exactly that experiences the ‘sensations of being a me?

What experiences?

What FEELS the sensations?
Locate the feeler with precision. Where is it?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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