what is all this

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putamen
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what is all this

Postby putamen » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:07 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that although I think I exist and I think I am the one who is aware of all experience, in reality there is nobody experiencing. The ignorance is not realizing that I do not exist, always inserting myself into the picture. The mere search stands in my way to realize, because the one searching is not real.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to realize what I am, who I am, what this is all about. Even if there is no way to understand or make sense out of it, even if there is a price to pay, and despite the fear I experience from my own inhalation, I want the truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance on realizing the truth, helping me with practices that can expose my ignorance.
I suspect that at times I still do grab concepts and hold them for a while, or cling to an idea which simply holds me back.
I am hoping that a guide will help expose such occurrences and help me move past that and focus on the next step.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I've only been seeking for a couple of years. I started with Tolle, read and listened to many teachers (Spira, Adya, Nisargadatta and a few more). I also was interested in the scientific approaches to explaining (Bernardo Kastrup comes to mind). I practice regularly during my day, trying to be in the present moment, aware, not labeling not identifying and letting thoughts or emotions take me for a ride for too long. I often do self inquiry, not sure how well. Despite a lot of progress, my mom is still able to drive me nuts in minutes.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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Vivien
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Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:34 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?


Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
What is incomplete right now?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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putamen
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Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:55 pm

Thank you Vivian.
Can we agree on these?
Absolutely, I will do my best to follow these guidelines, this is what I want too.
what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
I want to clearly see the truth of what we call existence, and understand where the person I've considered myself to be for so many years fits into this scheme. I accept that that person may be an illusion, and if that is the case, I would like to clearly see it. I can't know how my life will change, but from what I gather it will not necessarily be that much different than what I experience as my life right now, there will be no long attachments to concepts, emotions, feelings, there will be lucid clearity.
What are you hoping for?
I am hoping for liberation from seeking, peace, removal of any ignorance and being immersed in clearity. I am hoping that what unfolds will completely satisfy my need to know and end this futile search or the seeker.
What do you want to happen?
I want to not want, to wake up from the dream where I consider myself a separate self in a (mostly) hostile world. I want to be in a state that aligns with what really is and ends the resistance to what is.
What is incomplete right now?
My understanding of how and where I fit into reality/life is incomplete. I have some intellectual, or semi-experiential understandings that I cannot verify from experience and be convinced of. Accepting that there is no "me" in the awareness or experience that I experience does not make that "me" disappear, does not make seeking or resistance disappear.

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Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:00 am

Hi,

How can I call you? What name would you prefer?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
there will be no long attachments to concepts, emotions, feelings, there will be lucid clearity.
And what if all these will still happen after seeing through the self? What if seeing through the self is just simply about the recognition there is no one who could be attached to concepts or emotions?

Seeing through the self illusion is not the end. Not at all. It’s just the beginning. Just the first step.

So attachment to things won’t disappear. It will require lots of further looking to gradually dissolve life-long conditionings.
I am hoping for liberation from seeking, peace, removal of any ignorance and being immersed in clearity. I am hoping that what unfolds will completely satisfy my need to know and end this futile search or the seeker.
And what if there is no I/self which could be immersed in clarity? What if there could be just clarity without it happening to anyone or anything?

Yes, after seeing through the self illusion seeking stops. But as I mentioned, it’s not an end. Far from it.

Peace is a state, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.
I want to be in a state that aligns with what really is and ends the resistance to what is.
Seeing through the self is NOT a state. And it’s highly unlikely that resistance to what is to go away in one swoop.
Perception changes and with that some reactions may change. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
Accepting that there is no "me" in the awareness or experience that I experience does not make that "me" disappear, does not make seeking or resistance disappear.
Seeing through the self doesn’t happen through acceptance.
Since there is no self there who could accept anything.

And the ‘me’ won’t disappear. An imagined character cannot be ceased.
It just can be recognized for what it is, just a fictional character.
I want to realize what I am, who I am, what this is all about.
And what if there is nothing that can be labelled as ‘this is what I am’ or ‘this is who I am’?
and despite the fear I experience from my own inhalation, I want the truth.
I assume you wanted to write annihilation.

As long as there is a belief that you will die, or that the self/I be annihilated, it’s inevitable that fear follows.
But this fear is based on the false assumption that the I/self could cease to exist. But it’s not possible.
The me/self cannot cease to exist, since it’s NEVER ever been a real self anywhere.
It has always been just an illusion.
So there is nothing that could die or be annihilated. It’s impossible.

So with seeing through the self illusion, nothing dies or cease to exist. Not even the illusion of the self.
What changes is the experiential RECOGNITION that the self has always been just a fantasy, and not a reality.
But the illusion of the self will still appear. It will go on. The me-character will still live its seeming life.
Despite a lot of progress, my mom is still able to drive me nuts in minutes.
And probably she still will :) Why she drives you nuts is not just because there is a belief in the self. There are much deeper roots of that. And the personality will stay almost completely intact.

Also, physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

Please ponder on these questions to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
I've only been seeking for a couple of years. I started with Tolle, read and listened to many teachers (Spira, Adya, Nisargadatta and a few more). I also was interested in the scientific approaches to explaining (Bernardo Kastrup comes to mind).
For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?


Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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putamen
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Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:04 am

Hi Vivien (got it right this time).
How can I call you? What name would you prefer?
Ron would sound familiar but let's go with it, giving another name just seems fake and the one that needs to be seen is that called Ron.
Seeing through the self illusion is not the end. Not at all. It’s just the beginning. Just the first step.
I didn't realize, so the illusory self keeps asking and searching, despite being revealed as such? That's ok.
..after seeing through the self illusion seeking stops. But as I mentioned, it’s not an end
Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key
That seems like a paradox, if the "no I" has been revealed (by who? clearly not by that false I), who continues to look? does it mean that if there is no seeking, but there is still revelations that just unfold without being sought?
Seeing through the self is NOT a state. And it’s highly unlikely that resistance to what is to go away in one swoop.
I was using the term state, knowing it is wrong, of course I don't really grasp what it is, I can't. I will attempt to drop that concept as you suggest.
Seeing through the self doesn’t happen through acceptance.
Indeed that was what I was trying to say - although I am open to the idea that there is no I, I cannot see the illusion.
And what if there is nothing that can be labelled as ‘this is what I am’ or ‘this is who I am’?
I don't know, I want to see whatever that is, yes.
I assume you wanted to write annihilation.
Indeed, English is not my first language, spelling is not my forte and other excuses that don't matter to anyone.
...it’s inevitable that fear follows.
But this fear is based on the false assumption that the I/self could cease to exist
If I see that I do not exist, will I stop feeling pain if I stub my toe? Probably not, would I fear pain? Probably, or what would prevent me from damaging the body? Oh.. there is no decider, it will just happen by itself. Right now that's a concept I read isn't it? I don't know anything.
..the personality will stay almost completely intact.
Bummer
physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve.... However, if someone decides to work on these [, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
Is that because the seeing of the illusory self is not permanent at first? The false self keeps rising and acting up so to speak?
So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.
I will do my best, but it's hard to answer any question without making some assumptions.
...put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?
Yes, I have done that accept for the "Gateless Gatecrashers" that I started reading, should I drop that one as well?
Is there any resistance to any of it?
There was a bit of resistance from feeling trapped having to answer questions I am bound to get wrong, so there is an ego reaction to being corrected. I'm now observing that ego reaction but cannot find the one who is upset. The resistance is gone.
Do you feel ready to start the investigation?
I thought we did :) Yes! ready and willing.
Thank you so much for your time.

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Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:34 am

Hi Ron,
I didn't realize, so the illusory self keeps asking and searching, despite being revealed as such? That's ok.
The illusion will keep arising, but searching to figure out ‘who or what I am’ will stop. But the human experience won’t stop. There still could be a feeling of hurt, anger, sadness, depression, whatever emotions that appear in the moment.
That seems like a paradox, if the "no I" has been revealed (by who? clearly not by that false I), who continues to look? does it mean that if there is no seeking, but there is still revelations that just unfold without being sought?
There is ALREADY no self, and yet looking is happening. Looking doesn’t require a looker.
This is just another belief that needs to be seen through.
Indeed, English is not my first language,
No problem, your English is excellent.
If I see that I do not exist, will I stop feeling pain if I stub my toe? Probably not, would I fear pain? Probably, or what would prevent me from damaging the body? Oh.. there is no decider, it will just happen by itself. Right now that's a concept I read isn't it? I don't know anything.
Pain won’t stop. Nothing stops which is part of the human existence.

But there is no point me giving answer to these questions, since that would be just beliefs for you what you could accept or reject.
It’s much more fruitful if I give you directed questions (pointer) which help you to see it for yourself.
V: physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve.... However, if someone decides to work on these [, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.
R: Is that because the seeing of the illusory self is not permanent at first? The false self keeps rising and acting up so to speak?
No. It’s because the self is just one of hundreds of thousands of beliefs we have. Just one of many.
And conditioning patterns, reactions, emotional triggers has not much to do with seeing that there the self is an illusion.
The self already an illusion in this moment, it’s never been any other way (even if you can’t see it yet). And yet, all of the above happens.
Yes, I have done that accept for the "Gateless Gatecrashers" that I started reading, should I drop that one as well?
Yes please, drop that too. I’m going to give you questions targeted directly to your comments and beliefs. So spend as much time as you can with those questions. Repeatedly look at the same things again and again.

It’s about the repeated and continuous looking and looking and more looking what brings about the realization.
There was a bit of resistance from feeling trapped having to answer questions I am bound to get wrong, so there is an ego reaction to being corrected. I'm now observing that ego reaction but cannot find the one who is upset. The resistance is gone.
My questions are not about making you wrong :) It’s about helping you see your beliefs and expectations which could be in the way of seeing the simplicity of what is.
I thought we did :) Yes! ready and willing.
No, we haven’t started yet :) So far we just had an everyday conversation about this topic.
But this about to change. From now on, we won’t just talk about it.
Talking is thinking, and it’s impossible to see through the illusion with thinking.
Since thoughts are the main ‘creators’ of the illusion.
And we cannot use the same tool to see through the illusion, which has been creating it in the first place.

You have to step out from the realm of thinking and intellectualizing, and just to observer the raw experience as it is.

We are going to start to investigate thoughts. Seeing thoughts clearly is essential part of the inquiry.

It is very important that you never think or ponder on the questions. Rather you actually have to look what you can see in your immediate experience without any thought interpretation.

Please always be thorough with looking. Look repeatedly several times before replying.

Please sit, doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch thoughts coming and going.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
Please repeat this exercise several times before replying.


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:03 am

I will provide an answer in my tomorrow morning, but I just wanted to say...
That seems like a paradox, if the "no I" has been revealed (by who? clearly not by that false I), who continues to look? does it mean that if there is no seeking, but there is still revelations that just unfold without being sought?
There is ALREADY no self, and yet looking is happening. Looking doesn’t require a looker.
This is just another belief that needs to be seen through.
Wow! What you just said exposed such a deep and confused belief I had, my whole body was tensing up and my heart raced. Yes, I am not even the seeker, there is seeking happening, what a beautiful thing to see, even if it's not a complete realization. Thank you!

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Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:15 am

Wow! What you just said exposed such a deep and confused belief I had, my whole body was tensing up and my heart raced. Yes, I am not even the seeker, there is seeking happening, what a beautiful thing to see, even if it's not a complete realization. Thank you!
Yes, exactly :) That’s why I’m saying that there are many beliefs which need to be seen through :)
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:16 pm

I could hardly got any sleep last night, so moved by how my view has shifted from thinking of me as a self into thinking of me as just experiencing a self, or pondering if that is the case. I'm not analyzing this, I am just letting it be a possibility. I was focusing on your questions for a while.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
No, the thought appears out of nothing.
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Again, no, I cannot, it vanishes into nothing.
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
The short no-speculation answer is that I cannot tell where thoughts come from or where they go, a clear no.

What I seem to experience is that a thought appears out of nothing, there is no "envelope" or a distinction between the thought and its content - they are the same thing, the thought appears in an instant and all that is known is the content of the thought, there is nothing there but thought. Then the thought vanishes back into nothing but there seems to be an echo of interpretation which is why it seems to be longer than it the actual original though was. That's a description of my experience more than an analysis, sorry.

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Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:24 am

Hi Ron,

You did a nice looking :)

Try an experiment.

Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
What is making thoughts to appear?
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:44 am

Hi Vivien, thank you.
Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?
As hard as I try, all I can do is wait for one to appear. Even when a thought came and said "ok, let's create a thought about apples", all I could do is wait for a thought about apples to come to me.
Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?
Yes, agreed.
What is making thoughts to appear?
I don't know, they don't seem to take any requests, but they do tend to stick to a theme, for a while, as if one attracts the other. That seems mostly true about negative thoughts such as self judgment.
Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?
In my experience, only for a few seconds or so before a thought or an image (is that a thought?) appears. If I try to not think or just be an empty vessel, the thought that comes will be about "having no thoughts" for example.

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Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:54 am

Hi Ron,
Even when a thought came and said "ok, let's create a thought about apples", all I could do is wait for a thought about apples to come to me.
Please try to create a thought again, and observe:

Do you create thought: “Let’s create a thought”?
How do you make this thought to appear?
What do you do in order to this thought to appear?
a thought or an image (is that a thought?) appears.
Yes. A thought can be verbal / auditory (like a words), or pictorial / visual, like an image. Both of them are just thoughts.
If I try to not think or just be an empty vessel, the thought that comes will be about "having no thoughts" for example.
And how do you make the decision not to think?
Do you make the thought “not think for a while, just be an empty vessel” appear? Is this thought your doing?

And how do you perform the act of not thinking?
What do you do exactly to prevent thoughts to appear?
Is thinking or not thinking your doing?
Do you have power over thoughts?
Are you the thinker of thoughts?


Please stay with these questions for a whole day. Don’t rush. Be very thorough and rely only from what can be seen in the immediate experience without any speculation, imagination or analogy.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:25 pm

Do you create thought: “Let’s create a thought”?
No, I cannot create a thought no matter how hard I try.. I read the text that said "create a thought" - so these words became known. Then I was trying to create a new thought.
How do you make this thought to appear?
I can't make it appear, I wait for something to appear.
What do you do in order to this thought to appear?
I pose the initial thought, and look for an answer with acute focus and attention. I thought will appear or something in my field of vision will cause a thought to appear. I have no control over that process, all of it.
And how do you perform the act of not thinking?
I either ask a question that cannot be answered, look for the answer, and there is silence for a while. or I try to focus on my senses like feeling the body or listening to sounds without interpreting. Sometimes I will try to relax any intention as if nothing interests me. I see that I'm not really the doer of any one of these though.
What do you do exactly to prevent thoughts to appear?
I cannot prevent them from appearing, I can just try to not follow up with more thoughts by dropping them. But another thought will come soon.
Is thinking or not thinking your doing?
Definitely not. There is only an illusion that I am controlling thinking, I feel like I need to explain: any attempt I make - e.g. "think about x", "don't think at all" are themselves thoughts that were not created by me, they were read or just appeared. The convoluted and spiral nature of thinking makes this seem like a process I control, but I can see now that I do not. Damn, I'm a machine, who said that? Clearly not me.
Do you have power over thoughts?
Nada, it's just an illusion.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?
I cannot find a thinker, there is just knowing of the thought, a thought that is not known is nothing.

I cannot avoid the implications of all that: Nobody can create even one original thought, all that is happening is transferring of thoughts, or the appearance of thoughts out of nothing. There is no driver at all, there is just acting and knowing. I never wanted to awaken, it's just what is happening, you assisting me is not your doing either. I can see no free will in any of this but my mind keeps feeding me with the illusion that I am the one deciding, knowing, thinking. Why do I bother with trying to control anything... there is nothing I am doing, I think if I really let it go...

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Re: what is all this

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:56 pm

Hi Ron,
I either ask a question that cannot be answered, look for the answer, and there is silence for a while. or I try to focus on my senses like feeling the body or listening to sounds without interpreting. Sometimes I will try to relax any intention as if nothing interests me. I see that I'm not really the doer of any one of these though.
Exactly.
So can you see clearly that the thought “I am going to focus on my senses” is not your doing?
Can you see that the attention goes to the bodily sensations and sounds on its own, without anything or anyone doing it?
Can you see that when ‘trying to relax’ happens, it’s not done by anything?
I cannot prevent them from appearing, I can just try to not follow up with more thoughts by dropping them. But another thought will come soon.
“I can just try to not follow up with more thoughts” – What is this ‘I’ that is trying not to follow up with more thoughts?
Is there an I/self outside of the story of me-character?
And this I/self is trying not to follow up with more thoughts?
I can see no free will in any of this but my mind keeps feeding me with the illusion that I am the one deciding, knowing, thinking.
“but my mind keeps feeding me” – what is this ‘me’ that the mind keeps feeding?
Is there an I/me outside of thought-narration?
Why do I bother with trying to control anything...
What is this ‘I’ that is bothered with trying to control things?
Is there really an I being bothered, or there is just a thought story about the me-character being bothered and trying to controlling things?

there is nothing I am doing, I think if I really let it go...
What is this ‘I” that has no control, and it thinks it should let go?
Can you find this ‘I’ trying to let go outside of the thought story of ‘there is nothing I am doing’?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: what is all this

Postby putamen » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:52 am

Hi Vivien,
I will take my time with these, but I wanted to ask a couple of clarifying questions.
So can you see clearly that the thought “I am going to focus on my senses” is not your doing?
I can see that the thought is not my doing, I have no control over thoughts, but in the case of action, the action just occurs (without me doing it) and then a thought claims that it was the one deciding to do that action. But I'm not quite sure if the thought appears before, after or during the action, how is a thought related to an action?
Can you see that when ‘trying to relax’ happens, it’s not done by anything?
Here is my confusion: from what I see, action occurs, say I hold my breath, and the thought "I'm going to hold my breath will either proceed it, or may even be an afterthought. So thoughts do not ever trigger action, is that correct?

What about the process of thinking, thoughts come in a stream, one building on top of the previous (that's how it seems to me). Why should that be any different..? That implies that the thoughts come as correlated stream, there is "thinking" and it appears as thoughts. So thoughts are a sense...thoughts are how thinking is sensed.., and there is no thinker. But the perfect correlation between action and though makes it seem so seamless like a cause and an effect.
So confusing.

Thank you so much!


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