What is mind?

Welcome to the main forum. When you are ready to start a conversation, register and once your application is processed a guide will come to talk to you.
This is one-on-one style forum, one thread per green member.
User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:07 pm

Is there a control over this fear of losing control?
Since, in order to have control over these thoughts and emotions, there has to be a self, who intentionally thinks and chooses these thoughts, and can stop them at any time by will. But is this possible?
I have no control over it. But there is a tendency to try to understand this. Or actualize it according to my own idea of how it should be. It can even feel like in this inquiry process there is a subtle agenda that, finding out about the unreality of the self will lead to less suffering. Its like my mind is incredibly stubborn and restless about making that happen.

There is always this presupposition, it is painful and I cant control it. I feel like want to let go of that resistance. Thinking and trying to act it out is based on that presupposition that I can do something about it. The interesting part is the reasons/story about that resistance changes. Before that was a fear to let go, now there is a desire to let go.
But why would you go mad? And more importantly who would go mad?
If seeing through the self would mean going mad, then you ALREADY MUST BE mad :) since there is already no self and it has never been.
Can you see the falsity of these thoughts?
It is difficult because there is this strong contraction along with the emotional intensity. Sure I see it as just thoughts but there is this annoying tension, contraction, image thing.
Can you see that all of these fears are based on the assumption/idea that there is a self/me, who currently has control, but it can lose it as the result of this inquiry?
Yes and there is also an assumption that the result of this inquiry will make 'me' let go.
Can you see that this assumption stands on a false idea of there being a self in the first place?
Yes

There is an intense desire to "stand apart" observe, see, notice and confirm. That feels like control resistance.

There is a view that there is a ‘me’ experience that is making experience be this way, this uncomfortable, contracted. There is a view that this me-thought, this thought of owning experience is producing my personal will.

There is this I-thought, I I I I I, thinking again and again stuck with my attention.

After more investigations. Looking right now. There is a sort of pull-back from experiences from sensations into thought. I would get bugged by it. I noticed I would recoil from my thinking tendencies also and did not understand why that recoil would not leave and would prevent me from seeing. Right now I am clearly seeing how this recoil is making a sense of time. Basically sensations -> thought, that thought will then pretend to have experienced the previous sensation then try to link it to the next frame of experience. It pretends to be something stable "in the present", also getting lost in its own reflections and stories.

That particular identification happens like this (past sensation) => recoil into thought (I-thought, ownership thought, sense of center) => more thoughts => belief to have noticed things in the past and will notice in the future.

I cannot really choose (or not choose) to have beliefs, positions or conclusions. In fact I cannot choose to notice or not notice. I also cannot choose to cling to that center or not.

I was trying to fix my tendencies but maybe this whole investigation is not about fixing anything.
So not the control is missing from the picture, but YOU!
Can you see this?
I am missing, it feels more like dreaming identification until the next moment it is seen that it wasn't true. I am seeing that my attention is trying to reference different pieces of experiences with each other after the recoil into thought. But the process is happening on its own but not in the way I expected. This is not particularly blissful, the seeing of it is quick, its almost like a reflex.

I will be absolutely honesty about this I need to resolve if I am whatever is observing that quick movement of identification/attention.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is mind?

Postby Vivien » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:24 am

Hi Eren,
It is difficult because there is this strong contraction along with the emotional intensity. Sure I see it as just thoughts but there is this annoying tension, contraction, image thing.
You have to stay with the sensations themselves, without labelling it as ‘annoying’ or ‘suffering’, or ‘fear’, or anything at all.

Just feel it and see what is this sensation made of. Just gently be with it.
If you try to push it away, it will get stronger due to the added layer of resistance.
Just gently be with the sensation, allow it to be there, without labelling in anything.

Let me know what happens when you stop resisting it and just let it be.
After more investigations. Looking right now. There is a sort of pull-back from experiences from sensations into thought. I would get bugged by it.
Try not to pull-back from sensations. Just let them be. Just feel them without interpreting them.
I was trying to fix my tendencies but maybe this whole investigation is not about fixing anything.
Seeing through the self-illusion is definitely not about fixing.
Rather it’s about seeing that what need to be fixed, is simply not there, and there has never been.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:32 pm

I have been looking for the past few days.
When I stop resisting, speculation or directing a feeling. I notice that my tendency to recoil away from it decreases and it is really bizarre but the sensation appears on it own kind of like thought. In those moments it like I don't need to put effort or will in order to feel a sensation.

Also the sensation does look to be saying anything about it location or what it exactly is. A good analogy would be that it transparent or invisible.

Sidenote: I am noticing a bit more how thought is constructing a body, meaning thought assumes that such sensation refers to such part of the body. A mental picture of the sensation arises. Then a belief regarding the meaning/function of that sensation starts and multiplies into a story.

I am noticing how this will/effort produces suffering/strain/something not quite right. When lost in the thoughts however and will is starting to be introduced interpretations about such and such sensation causing suffering start popping up and wrecking havoc.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is mind?

Postby Vivien » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:56 am

Hi Eren,
it is really bizarre but the sensation appears on it own kind of like thought. In those moments it like I don't need to put effort or will in order to feel a sensation.
Is there any effort any time to feel a sensation?
Or sensations just coming and going (appearing, changing, disappearing) by themselves effortlessly?
Also the sensation does look to be saying anything about it location or what it exactly is. A good analogy would be that it transparent or invisible.
Sidenote: I am noticing a bit more how thought is constructing a body, meaning thought assumes that such sensation refers to such part of the body. A mental picture of the sensation arises. Then a belief regarding the meaning/function of that sensation starts and multiplies into a story.
Excellent observations :)
I am noticing how this will/effort produces suffering/strain/something not quite right. When lost in the thoughts however and will is starting to be introduced interpretations about such and such sensation causing suffering start popping up and wrecking havoc.
Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Look at this several times before replying.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Hey Vivien, I'm still with you! :)
Is there any effort any time to feel a sensation?
Or sensations just coming and going (appearing, changing, disappearing) by themselves effortlessly?
Actually feeling is pretty effortless (before thought highjacks). Last time I was outside in the cold and my mind was making drama on how cold it was. For some reason my mind just stopped interpreting the sensation as cold it was just a "sensation". Even right now the "hardness" of the keyboard, at the exact moment of contact it is hard to say what that sensation really is about. It is really mysterious tbh.

I am noticing that trying to be deliberately aware of the senses creates more resistance (tensions) so I sort of "relax" into them. I am making much more effort than necessary.

The "effort" to feel is either another afterthought, a previous thought or a resistance. But that "moment" of feeling in and of itself is effortless.
Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Look at this several times before replying.
Let me know what you find.
I have been looking. As I described for touching, in the hearing sense, there is a mental picture of the space where the sound is located. In that mental picture there is a center, but that mental picture ofc is not the sound, the sound is occuring in some place I cannot say anything about, as if it was always on the "periphery". However sound still has a meaning and content, but the hearing is effortless in the same way as touch. I also notice resistance around my ears but the resistances at the ears are not "listening".

Tasting and smelling are contracted, it is hard to say what is tasting, it feels more like a mix of sensations and mental picture that are tasting and smelling. Meaning at the moment of tasting and smelling, mental picture (image of space with center) and sensation contract around the place where the taste or smell is supposed to be. It try to relax sometimes but its like the whole body resists tasting or smelling.

Thinking is effortless also in the same way as sensations I see that the resistances/contractions are making thoughts a problem (and making that a problem makes more problems). When there is a thought, it appears on it own. Then there is a resistance to it so I try to investigate what that resistance is about, is it another belief? a sensation? a mental picture? and so on.

There is a great sense of curiosity right now. As I am wondering what on earth "perceives" the senses if it is not thought. What is it that perceives thought? Because some moments I feel "not present" and lost while in other i feel "more present" and here.

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:19 pm

I forgot to speak about seeing. The way colors appears is pretty effortless. However there are resistances around the face, the eyes balls, background thoughts and sensations in the head at times highjacking the act of seeing. However this moment of seeing itself is just full of bright, clear, colors. When not trying to focus it like an objective landscape (for lack of a better word). I like seeing :)

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is mind?

Postby Vivien » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:09 am

Hi Eren,
Last time I was outside in the cold and my mind was making drama on how cold it was. For some reason my mind just stopped interpreting the sensation as cold it was just a "sensation".
Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:07 pm

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something?
I have been looking for the past few days.
I cannot find something concrete, solid or stable called mind. I have just thoughts many of them are stories, beliefs, fixations on a particular topic. Even the space of thought I was talking about is part of that stream of thought. Its a momentary projection from what I observe.
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?
It does feel like I have a center. A source where thoughts come from. At first I believe it was a sensation. But there is tendency to believe that there is a center in the thoughts and that center is trapped in the thoughts. As I observe it happening it looks like an after thought. There is a lot of "energetic" or feeling resistances though.
Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
No, all I see is more thoughts.
What is it in the very moment you observe it?
Trying to observe it is a thoughts and me believing "I am here looking at my mind" is another thought. What I believe that I am observing is another thought.
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?
The thoughts are not stable and often shift. I cannot say that there is something with a particularly stable shape, texture or size. Everything changes. I am not even certain that I am experiencing anything "outside" of a thought. There is a sense of being trapped in thoughts (stories, images etc) and the feelings.
How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?
Observing my experience, seeing that everything changes moment to moment. Specially that my current experience is really tied to my view/belief/fixation of the moment, so far I have not found something separate from thought, sights, sound, sensations, taste, smell that could be called a mind.

I will be honest sometimes I am not sure I am experiencing ANYTHING apart from what I believe I am experiencing in the moment.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is mind?

Postby Vivien » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:19 am

Hi Eren,
It does feel like I have a center. A source where thoughts come from. At first I believe it was a sensation. But there is tendency to believe that there is a center in the thoughts and that center is trapped in the thoughts
Please locate this center of ‘me’. Find it, with centimeter or even millimeter precision.
Where is the location of the center exactly?
I am not even certain that I am experiencing anything "outside" of a thought. There is a sense of being trapped in thoughts (stories, images etc) and the feelings.
Please describe to me the ‘sense of being trapped in thoughts’ as precisely as you can.
But be careful not to speculate, or write about theories, imagination, just the pure, raw experience of it.
I will be honest sometimes I am not sure I am experiencing ANYTHING apart from what I believe I am experiencing in the moment.
Isn’t there the experience of sensations? Colours? Sounds? Taste? Smells?
Isn’t experience constantly on?

Is there any moment when experience is not happening?
Isn’t there always sounds, colors, sensations, smells, tastes going on? Or certain combination of these?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:21 pm

Hi Vivien, happy new year!
Please locate this center of ‘me’. Find it, with centimeter or even millimeter precision. Where is the location of the center exactly?
I have been trying to zero in. It really feels like a sensation moving around the body, a resistance. Right now it is a bulk of sensations between the gut and the center of the head, with a tension more pronounced in the lower part of the gut.
Please describe to me the ‘sense of being trapped in thoughts’ as precisely as you can.
The best way I could describe it is a holding back, a fear. Attention moves away from the thought, then there is a sense of tightness as sensations in the head (around the nape of the neck and the palate) then thoughts thinks thoughts of helplessness. In fact what I called the sense of being trapped looking a bit deeper is more a feeling of being trapped by those sensations.
Isn’t there the experience of sensations? Colours? Sounds? Taste? Smells?
Isn’t experience constantly on?
There is such an experience. I was (still am) referring to what thought "belives" I am experiencing at a given time. As I am deconstructing the sound of a bird, I have the sense that I have no way of know the content of the sound if the image of "bird" did not come about as a result.
Is there any moment when experience is not happening?
It is always happening. When I feel like it is not happening I see that it was just a thought of the past.
Isn’t there always sounds, colors, sensations, smells, tastes going on? Or certain combination of these?
There is.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is mind?

Postby Vivien » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:29 am

Hi Eren,
I have been trying to zero in. It really feels like a sensation moving around the body, a resistance. Right now it is a bulk of sensations between the gut and the center of the head, with a tension more pronounced in the lower part of the gut.
Are you saying that those sensations are the ‘me’? That those sensations are a REAL, EXISTING self inside the body?
In fact what I called the sense of being trapped looking a bit deeper is more a feeling of being trapped by those sensations.
And the self are those sensations, or the self is being trapped inside those sensations?

And what is it EXACTLY that is being trapped inside those sensation?
Is there a REAL self, a REAL me being trapped inside those sensation?
then thoughts thinks thoughts of helplessness.
A thought things? Can a thought actually think? Are you sure about this?
What is thinking thoughts?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:26 pm

Are you saying that those sensations are the ‘me’? That those sensations are a REAL, EXISTING self inside the body?
After further looking, the sensations in and of themselves are not the problem but it is the problem-making of them. The belief/thought associated. Not recognizing them as just sensations. I notice that it is "me" indulging in the belief "I have to [insert}", "I need to [insert]". That feels more like a doer and feeler more than anything else. Then there is suffering (subtle or intense) regarding that.
And the self are those sensations, or the self is being trapped inside those sensations?
If there is a self, then in direct experience it would be the desire/impulse/habit of controlling sensation (thought and other senses), which leads to discomfort, stories, explanations and further beliefs about it.
And what is it EXACTLY that is being trapped inside those sensation?
Nothing is being trapped. While it could feel like it sometimes experentially it more as if it is thoughts about the sensations. Baically just not just noticing them as just sensations and just thooughts that are the problem.

Is there a REAL self, a REAL me being trapped inside those sensation?
I have not yet found such a real or concrete thing, I am still looking for it though.

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:29 pm

Oh yeah avoidance of sensations and thought is a big component of that confusion moment to moment. If I could give and explanation it is as if attention goes back and forth between the two very quickly. Like table tennis at times.

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is mind?

Postby Vivien » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:39 am

Hi Eren,
After further looking, the sensations in and of themselves are not the problem but it is the problem-making of them.
What is it EXACTLY that is making sensations into a problem?
And whose or what problem is that?
Who and what has a problem with certain sensations?
What is it exactly that feels the sensations?
The belief/thought associated. Not recognizing them as just sensations.
And WHAT is it EXACTLY that is not recognizing sensations just as sensations?
I notice that it is "me" indulging in the belief "I have to [insert}", "I need to [insert]".
OK. So WHERE is this me that is indulging in beliefs?
Where exactly? Tell me the exact physical location.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
StoneFree
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:18 am

Re: What is mind?

Postby StoneFree » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:55 pm

Hi, Vivien sorry for this lately reply. But as I was looking at thoughts life has felt like it has been disintigrating at times.

My answer might sound silly but that is where I notice.
What is it EXACTLY that is making sensations into a problem?
After thoughts.
And whose or what problem is that?
A thought reflecting on another thought.
Who and what has a problem with certain sensations?
Nothing I could identify clearly. There is almost always an afterthought commenting about sensation, making an image etc.
What is it exactly that feels the sensations?
Nothing I could identify clearly. There is sensation.
And WHAT is it EXACTLY that is not recognizing sensations just as sensations?
Thought content, another belief.
OK. So WHERE is this me that is indulging in beliefs?
The only way I know there is belief "indulgence", is when it is noticed that there was a thought about a belief in the moment in the first place.
Where exactly? Tell me the exact physical location.
I have no found a solid, consistent "me". To answer this I would have to answer "where do thoughts take place?". It is being increasingly clear that thoughts take place in the same space/place that what I previously thought where physical locations. A thought can pop literally anywhere, so does the noticing of a belief or opinion. There could seem to be a reaction where the image of a body is but then it is seen that the that it just a thought reflecting on a body. That feeling was just a feeling, a sensation. I can only know its location referring to an image, but that "referring is another thought". Can only know it was a feeling about something but that "i know it was anger" was a thought.

It is bizarre but I have been noticing a "gap"/break/pause/space/relaxation/stillness between thoughts, I am tryna zero-in on that also. I need to be clear if that is just another thought in disguise. It is very momentary .


Return to “THE GATE”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest