Me?

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RonnieJamal
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Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:24 pm

(Questions are auto-translated from Finnish. Guiding can happen in English.)

LU has focused on guidance, which allows you to see that there is no real natural "self" exists - How do you understand this?
I have Understood the concept of non-dual self, yet have not experienced it directly.

What you are looking for LU forum?
I'm looking for pointing out directions / transmisson to see past dualness. Teachings possible and how to maintain it correctly.

What are you waiting for signaling fire discourse?
I'm looking for true knowing / realizasion of the selflesness / non-dual self guiding and to deepen and maximizing it.

What kind of experience do you have the so-called. spiritual exercises, searching and examination?
I have practiced mindfulness for about 6 months, yet still feeling im missing something obvious.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how willing are you to question current beliefs about yourself?
11

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flowings
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Re: Me?

Postby flowings » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:26 am

Hi, RonnieJamal!
My name is Daniel, I am from Germany and I'm happy to assist you in your inquiry.

All you need to bring in here, is to only look into your own present experience - and to be 100% honest about it!
Also it helps, to communicate on a daily basis if possible.

Please don't hesitate to ask, if any questions occur (especially as we both are non-native writers).

I'm looking for true knowing / realizasion of the selflesness
What do you expect to happen when realization happens?
How should true knowing affect your live?
What are you hoping for?
Anything you fear or worry about?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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RonnieJamal
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Re: Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:42 pm

Hello Daniel!
Thank you for answering and for taking the time to guide me through this. It's really appriciated.

So let's get in to it!

Can I start with a question that been bugging me?

Anyhow, here it is: What if I have missed the "switching" to a non-dual awareness? If it happened when I was young, or before I started my path of "waking up"? Is it even possible to miss? Really what I want to ask that, can you have any doubt about selflesness, if you have realized selflesness?

And now to your questions:
What do you expect to happen when realization happens?
How should true knowing affect your live?
What are you hoping for?
Anything you fear or worry about?
I expect to really realize without a doubt, that there is no self. And I guess I'm waiting for the feeling that "i'm behind my eyes/inside my head/above my body" to disappear. Not looking for some wonder that i'll be slinged out to space or anything, but more of an "aha! i knew it!" kind of an experience.

I can't answer directly how true knowing would affect my life becouse I don't have the ability of true knowing yet, of I haven't realized it yet. But I think it would help me be just overall a better, kinder and less selfish person. I could affect more positively in my relationships. I think there would be more point to practice mindfulness meditation (or dzogchen, how you wanna put it) if I was aware in awareness.

Actually what I'm hoping for is pretty much summarized in the answer above. :)

I don't have any specific fears that I can recognize as really fears. I have always had kinda attitude towards life that things just come and you take them as they are, so really im not a worrying of fearing person by nature. But there is this almost like frustration kind of aspect how i'm processing this "not knowing" or "not knowing do I know that I have lost the sense of subject-object". Just came in mind that I do have a small fear that I don't have the guts to "step through the gate" sort of speak.

phew, hope you can understand what I meant there and sorry for the possible typos and such.

And I think I'm reachable almost any day so communicating daily shouldn't be a problem!
And if you like, you can call me Ronnie, if you like. :)

Thanks once more!

-Ronnie

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flowings
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Re: Me?

Postby flowings » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:52 am

Hi, Ronnie!
What if I have missed the "switching" to a non-dual awareness? If it happened when I was young, or before I started my path of "waking up"? Is it even possible to miss? Really what I want to ask that, can you have any doubt about selflesness, if you have realized selflesness?

In this process, you may explore the nature of being until all doubts are irrelevant.

Walking 'The Gateless Gate' means to realize that there never was a gate in the first place - life has always happened without a separate self, so looking back you might realize, that "you" have always been "there".
But this is not important.
Considerations about missed switches in the past - or more general ALL questions that the mind is struggling with, will not bring you anywhere.
I now, this reply might not be very satisfying for the mind, but take note that you are NOT in this process to find answers for the conceptual mind. Thinking is based on dualism, on comparisons. It's a tool you can not use to solve this riddle. More about this later.


Let's have a look onto the questions I asked. As you might have noticed, they were also (same as yours above) addressing your mind - asking for expectations, for ideas that might be hiding out circling around.

Expectations can be like shaded sunglasses looking towards 'the end of the rainbow' - a layer of thought content, covering the actual experience - so they can be quite a hindrance, a distraction from clear-seeing-of-what-is-now; for everything is there already in everyday experience - literally.

Of course it's good to know your enemy, so it is important to see those expectations, to be aware of them.
Look closely and stay alert throughout the process!

Here are some additional pointers:

Look at the term 'nondual awareness'.
What does it mean to you?

Look at all the attached ideas of what you believe it would feel like to be in 'that state'.
And look again at the impact it would/should have on your life.

Look at your idea of 'true knowing'.
Is that a synonym for nondual awareness? Or is it something else?

What if the decaying of untruth will not be in accordance with your ideas?
Would you still want to raise the curtain?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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RonnieJamal
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Re: Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:12 pm

Thank you for the insights. I was pretty sure of the answer that you were going to give me.
So i'll just keep exploring the nature of being then, and observing my thoughts and expectations.

And yes now (I think I've realized this before) when I think back of some situations/memories that are more clear in my head, I can see that yes, "I was there" in those situations too. Although it's also a feeling of presence of something that isn't me and is me simultaneously. Like a some sort of "guardian" or something.. does this make any sense to you?

Here are some additional pointers:

Look at the term 'nondual awareness'.
What does it mean to you?

Look at all the attached ideas of what you believe it would feel like to be in 'that state'.
And look again at the impact it would/should have on your life.

For me non-dual awareness is the true nature of consciousness that is "me" which I know but haven't yet realized. I wan't to be aware of the awareness. My idea is that only then I can see other things as they are just being in consciousness. And then actually there'd be no other things and me at all, because all things including "me" in just an appearances in consciousness. So the impact would be that I can see feelings, thoughts and all the other things that arise more clearer and truly as they are and realize (which I KNOW, and that is itself a relief) that i'm not the same thing as my thoughts or feelings. In same way that i'm not my body (or sensations in it) or sounds that I hear or the lights and colors that I see. What i'm trying to say is that I know that "I" am not the mind that speaks to it self (the weirdest thing) and gives you bad (or good) ideas. I just haven't felt of realized it.

And i believe that it would feel like a relief, and restful to be (in) that state of just awareness. And I believe that I would have no doubt in my mind any more, or any other feelings of frustration, or intense full body experiences, of what feels like it is resistance, while I (non)practice mindfulness when trying to grasp* that state.

*when I have reached open non-selective awareness and I'm getting "too" close to just being (what I guess it is at least, if you use language of "thinking" mind)

Look at your idea of 'true knowing'.
Is that a synonym for nondual awareness? Or is it something else?


I meant that as a synonym to that. Also thinking that "I" am the knowing of which is aware. But I cant grasp that thought very long, nor think that I should. Again thinking and analyzing...

What if the decaying of untruth will not be in accordance with your ideas?
Would you still want to raise the curtain?

This is interesting cause I (until this point) haven't thought that what if my ideas of "the truth" could be wrong.
But I guess they could't be that badly off that it would profoundly change my desire to realize the truth. I mean my expectations are not so big and magnificent (like I will know the meaning of life and suffer never again). More of an "how did I not see this, it's obvious" kind of ideas. But i would still go on with the decaying, cause I'm here to see it happen and i've sat on it for so long..

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flowings
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Re: Me?

Postby flowings » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:51 pm

Thank you for your detailed reply!
Please try to comprehend completely, that clinging to all those expectations distract you from the obvious.
I might give you a friendly reminder about this every now and then ;)

Remember:
This is NOT about reaching a higher state of consciousness!
If you crave for this, you will miss the target, which lies in the raw experience of the present moment.
Also this is NOT about understanding something or gaining new knowledge.
In fact, it's about the opposite (see signature)
This is about SEEING crystal clear, that actual experience (hearing, feeling, thinking etc) do not require a separated entity to happen.

What i'm trying to say is that I know that "I" am not the mind that speaks to it self (the weirdest thing) and gives you bad (or good) ideas.
So if you are not mind, what are you then?
Are you the creator of thought?
Are you the receiver of thought?

Don't think about these questions!
LOOK!
Take some time for this.
Maybe you want to use some of your mindfulness practice, get yourself in meditation pose if you like, breathe.
Then just watch the ongoing stream of thoughts.

Can you see where thought comes from?
Can you make a thought occur?
Can you predict the next thought?
Can you spot a thinker, separated from thinking?
Can you find a not-thinking thinker? ...or an unthought thought, a thought separated from the thinker?

Inquire into this for about a day, whenever possible.
Don't think, LOOK!
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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RonnieJamal
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Re: Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:16 pm

Hello Daniel! I've been travelling, and safely being of my computer. :)

I've been looking at your questions, so here's my answers of what I noticed.

Are you the creator of thought?
Are you the receiver of thought?

I've certainly found that I do not create my thoughts. I have no control of the next coming thought, but I have come to realize that I can reduce it's power over me (good or bad) if I observe it and not think it. It doesn't always work but usually. And also i'm more convinced that feelings and thoughts are more or less the same as physical sensations. I think I feel thoughts and moods and feelings in my body first and then my mind starts to react to them.

I'm not sure am I the receiver of thoughts either. I guess my body is in a way? And then the mind reacts to them.. Or the otherway around, i'm not sure.

Can you see where thought comes from?
Can you make a thought occur?
Can you predict the next thought?
Can you spot a thinker, separated from thinking?
Can you find a not-thinking thinker? ...or an unthought thought, a thought separated from the thinker?

My simple answer to all of the questions above is no. The last two I'm not so sure. I do have a feeling that someone/thing is thinking the thoughts but I cannot spot it.. And also I have a feeling of a not-thinking thinker (more of a knower) and thoughts that are not being thinked. But I can't in a word see them of put them in some position somewhere. Closest I feel/see that they're outside (yet inside) of my head just in front and above it. But I feel them in my body.

And just to be sure. Am I supposed to SEE as actually use my eyes and vision or does SEEing prefer to something else?
Cause I can only SEE what is there, like trees, furniture, my laptop etc. And when i'm eyes closed I can see traces of light and some illumination.

Hope this made any sense at all.

Looking forward to hear from you,
Ronnie.

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flowings
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Re: Me?

Postby flowings » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:52 pm

Hi Ronnie!

Friendly reminder first, quote from "Read this first":
How does it work?

We refer to the method used on this forum simply as Direct Pointing. Our guides are exactly that: guides, not teachers. The process is straightforward and easy, as long as you abide by three fundamental guidelines. These are the following:

1. Write from experience, not speculation. It is impossible to overstate the importance of this; in order for any Direct Pointing session to be successful, it is your responsibility to examine your experience as it is, instead of resorting to speculation and theory-forming. The only way to get to the Gate and beyond is by directly looking at your actual experience of reality.

2. Be 100% honest. It is very easy to deceive oneself, especially when it comes to something as subtle as the intimacy of your direct experience. Strive to be completely honest and transparent as to what is actually happening in your experience, this will make the process as smooth as possible.

3. Post regularly. We've found that it is important to create a proper momentum in order to successfully carry out this investigation. What's needed is focus and intensity. The only way to enable these is to strive to post at least once a day
Just be so kind and let me know, whenever you need a break, OK?


just to be sure. Am I supposed to SEE as actually use my eyes and vision or does SEEing prefer to something else?
You mean this "Don't think, LOOK!", right? You understood right and did a good job. To LOOK, not to think means to draw your attention, awareness, concentration, focus or whatever you might call it on the process of thinking itself, and not - as usually - onto the content of thought.
So let's have a 'look' on your answers:
I'm not sure am I the receiver of thoughts either. I guess my body is in a way?
Yeah, that's a guess. ;)
Try to really "look", if you can spot a receiver and/or sender of thought.
I do have a feeling that someone/thing is thinking the thoughts but I cannot spot it.. And also I have a feeling of a not-thinking thinker (more of a knower) and thoughts that are not being thinked.
Examine that "feeling". Is it really a feeling? What is it?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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RonnieJamal
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Re: Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:22 am

Okay, and sorry for the last delay on the message. I was unable to write back. Next time situation like that emerges, i'll try to keep you informed. Thanks for understanding.

So to the point.

focus or whatever you might call it on the process of thinking itself
Try to really "look", if you can spot a receiver and/or sender of thought.
Examine that "feeling". Is it really a feeling? What is it?

It's hard to put this in words but ill try..
I can see the thinking mind. But maintaining the focus on it is difficult from time to time.
I can focus on the process of thinking, yet i'm unable to see where the thoughts which the thinking mind thinks are coming from.
I feel that i'm separate from all the sensing in a way, seeing, hearing, feeling, and thinking.
I feel that "I" am watching all these processes like from a back seat.
I've tried observing the one that is watching, but no results there. Feels like hitting a ceiling of sorts.

-Ronnie

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flowings
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Re: Me?

Postby flowings » Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:39 pm

It's hard to put this in words but ill try..
Oh, yes it is! But no worries: all this is not about giving eloquent or exact answers... language is not at all a good tool for this, but it's all we have to comminicate.
I can see the thinking mind. But maintaining the focus on it is difficult from time to time.
Yes it is - and it's something we usually don't do. Throughout this process you will probably loose focus again and again, also when you will observe direct experience of other aspects than thinking, like hearing, bodily sensations, (eye-)seeing and so on.
Don't get frustrated then! Do it like a juggler: pick up the fallen balls and continue ;)

i'm unable to see where the thoughts which the thinking mind thinks are coming from
Right!
Is there any difference to observe between "thoughts", "thinking mind" and "thinking"?

I feel that i'm separate from all the sensing in a way, seeing, hearing, feeling, and thinking.
I feel that "I" am watching all these processes like from a back seat.
I've tried observing the one that is watching, but no results there.
So you "feel" that "you" are separated, but it's not really possible to observe a separated watcher... isn't that strange?

Let me ask that question again:
Is this really a feeling? Or what is it?
The word 'feeling' can be quite indefinite; normally used to express emotions or some vague ideas/assumptions, right?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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RonnieJamal
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Re: Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:20 pm

Is there any difference to observe between "thoughts", "thinking mind" and "thinking"?
No actually now that I'm paying more attention to it. I can actually see it as this same "lump". It goes for all of the thinking stuff. The "songs that play in my head", the "voice of the thinking mind", thoughts (good of bad), thinking with purpose..
it's not really possible to observe a separated watcher... isn't that strange?
That is strange. I should be able to observe it somehow, if there is something to be observed.
Is this really a feeling? Or what is it?
The word 'feeling' can be quite indefinite; normally used to express emotions or some vague ideas/assumptions, right?
That's true. But it's hard to express it otherwise. It's just this being. It doesn't actually do anything. It just is.

-Ronnie

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flowings
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Re: Me?

Postby flowings » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:56 pm

Is there any difference to observe between "thoughts", "thinking mind" and "thinking"?
No actually now that I'm paying more attention to it. I can actually see it as this same "lump".
This lump of experience is all there is. That's the actual, pure experience of what is.
Everything else is merely language, dividing this one simple reality into separate pieces.

I feel that i'm separate from all the sensing
Let's focus on hearing.
Can you spot a "receiver" of "sound", coming from a "sender"?

Close your eyes and listen. Observe the listening. Take note, how automatically labelling is happening... "dog", "car", "washing machine", "neighbor", whatever. Maybe there are also little stories attached to that. But is "a dog is barking" really part of the actual experience of hearing?
And how about "you", the hearer"?
Try to find the hearer!
As you said:
I should be able to observe it somehow, if there is something to be observed.
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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RonnieJamal
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Re: Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:02 pm

Can you spot a "receiver" of "sound", coming from a "sender"?
But is "a dog is barking" really part of the actual experience of hearing?
And how about "you", the hearer"?
Try to find the hearer!

If I strip down the labels and all the knowledge and science behind sounds, I'm actually clueless what a sound itself is. I can not decide whether I hear the sound or not. They just happen. They're in the same space as thoughts, yet appearing in a slightly different way. I can't again find a separate receiver or hearer, other that the "being" that has its share in all the plays here. Yet the "being" isn't a receiver of a sender, everything seems to happen "in" it..

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flowings
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Re: Me?

Postby flowings » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:10 pm

Very good!
This "not-finding" happens, when you really look at pure reality, beyond layers of labels.
"Receiver" is nothing but a label.

This process is exactly about this not-finding,
about realizing, that there is no captain on the bridge.

Keep on looking, try to spot the thin line between actual experience and mental labels, that are attached.
Apart from "Me" as a mental label, as a belief: Is there a real "Me" to find?
Can you "feel" a separate self?
Truth isn’t about knowing things; you already know too much. It’s about unknowing.

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RonnieJamal
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Re: Me?

Postby RonnieJamal » Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:48 pm

Apart from "Me" as a mental label, as a belief: Is there a real "Me" to find?
Can you "feel" a separate self?

Okay. So I don't feel a separate self. And I recognize that "I"'m not "Me", the mental label.
"I" am more of the one who's aware off all, yet still the experience itself.
Again hard to put this in words, but when i'm present at the moment, this sort of excitement comes over me that I'm so close of seeing/recognizing something obvious.. Just quite cant get the hang of it.

I don't know is this off topic of not, but maybe it opens up my current view or "reality".
I mean I don't have any catastrophic problems in any aspect of my life,
but being present takes me to a place of tranquility, that this is it, and everything is exactly as it should.
It's such a relief to be at this moment, and not to think about something you did or said in the past. Or what will happen in the future.


And sorry took me a couple of days to sit on your questions.


-Ronnie


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